Clerical Positions in the Civil and Public Service

another question

Would anyone recommend the Career Services prep day for the online appitude next Saturday - it's €80 for 4 hours and a lot of take - home material. I know that a lot of people highly praise CS for their mature nursing prep days.

yenom

I would imagine it's the same as the Advice Centre on Publicjobs.ie

Zipppy

jjnaas wrote: »

I'm a TCO at the moment too. My EO told me that EO used to be graduate entry position before the recession. Ppl fresh out of college got it.Not sure really as all EOs here are in their 50s and
came in as COs out of school.

Also 80% of the TCOs here are over 35. Most of them 40+. 2 are college age.

I would guess myself that this CO competition will also attract a lot of older people. In my office there's 500 staff and I haven't seen any permanent staff under 30.

A recent report stated that in the civil service....
44% of staff are over 50
72% are over 40
And only 3% are under 30

Ageing workforce .........

Divisadero

Yes indeed. One factor is that they haven't been able to hire in real numbers in years. Another and this is just a theory is that jobs like a CO were not very attractive to young people during the height of the Celtic Tiger. There were higher paid jobs out there and in more appealing (dare I say glamorous) fields. Job security and a better pension isn't always a priority for someone straight out of school or college. At least not during a boom. My boss told me that during the Tiger years some CO's would leave the Civil Service within a week or two of starting. Some may have regretted their decision to leave the dreary old Civil Service when the recession hit. Others probably never looked back!

starlit

Wow that's interesting. Thought now there be a mix of age groups by now but true not many under 30 and under 40 in the Civil/public service.

K4t

Majority of interviewees yesterday for the TCO positions were late 20s and 30s/40s.

alwaysadub

Anyone got any idea of when they are likely to start the first lot of tests? Going away next week and will have limited internet, don't want to miss it though!

starlit

Will probably get an email this week but deadline might not be for another few days or week. Could be a few days or weeks waiting to do tests though.

Diddlina

so the first round is online tests and i'm guessing you get graded accordingly. does anyone know what comes next or how they assign people to various roles?

daithi84

I was one of the last people to be recruited in the public service for CO and that was 6 years ago. I was 22 at the time. I will be 30 this at the end of the year. Before the pay cuts and tax increases it was possible to live off the starting entry point wage. It was around 24k when i started. But the last few years have been terrible. My wages dropped significantly and those famous increments are only worth between €2-€5 a week after tax, so dont be getting excited for them. You will be expected to the same work as people who are paid 2 or 3 times your salary so you will have to aware of what jobs are not for your grade and make sure the people who are being paid more are doing their fair share of the work before you do it. I was lucky at the time i got the job as it was a permanent job, at the moment i am in the my last year of college and trying to get out of here. I feel like i have become totally institutionalised and need to venture out a bit. I wouldn't feel so down about the job if there were promotions and ways of making a career out of it but there is nothing, no motivation or reward or praise of any kind. When promotions do finally come up you will be competing with every other CO in the place aswell as non public servants so it will be tricky to even get the promotion.

Divisadero

Diddlina re the process if you have the time there is info already on the thread. I put a post on here dated the 27/06 at 12.35 with the process as it used to be. There is no guarantee that it will be the same this time but it should at least be similar. I see that the company advertising the course are suggesting that the actual aptitude tests (not just the questionnaire) might be online this time and it was mentioned as a possible option (amongst others) in the PAS info booklet. I don't know how they could do that fairly but it would speed things up and save them time and money. You will have to wait and see!

Fooker

Does anyone expect there to be an AO competition anytime soon?

Also, if one were to be hired as a CO can they enter into the AO competition?

Malarkey101

Divisadero wrote: »

Diddlina re the process if you have the time there is info already on the thread. I put a post on here dated the 27/06 at 12.35 with the process as it used to be. There is no guarantee that it will be the same this time but it should at least be similar. I see that the company advertising the course are suggesting that the actual aptitude tests (not just the questionnaire) might be online this time and it was mentioned as a possible option (amongst others) in the PAS info booklet. I don't know how they could do that fairly but it would speed things up and save them time and money. You will have to wait and see!

These days a lot of the competitions run by pas has you first do the aptitude tests online and then as part of the next stage do them again in a supervised environment and any large differences between the 2 tests would also knock you out of the competition

Diddlina

Divisadero wrote: »

Diddlina re the process if you have the time there is info already on the thread. I put a post on here dated the 27/06 at 12.35 with the process as it used to be. There is no guarantee that it will be the same this time but it should at least be similar. I see that the company advertising the course are suggesting that the actual aptitude tests (not just the questionnaire) might be online this time and it was mentioned as a possible option (amongst others) in the PAS info booklet. I don't know how they could do that fairly but it would speed things up and save them time and money. You will have to wait and see!

cheers! That was helpful at least I know a bit more what to expect and I best get practicing the aptitude tests.

hattoncracker

Hi guys. New to the thread. I applied for a CO position online about three weeks ago and I haven't heard anything yet.

Has anyone heard anything yet about it? Just touching base here. Thanks a mill!

K4t

Nothing yet.

Dothehustle

Fooker wrote: »

Does anyone expect there to be an AO competition anytime soon?

Also, if one were to be hired as a CO can they enter into the AO competition?

havent a clue if there will be a AO competition soon
but yes any one can go for it

barneystinson

Fooker wrote: »

Does anyone expect there to be an AO competition anytime soon?

Also, if one were to be hired as a CO can they enter into the AO competition?

http://www.pseu.ie/_fileupload/circulars%202014/bc03514.pdf

gerbilgranny

barneystinson wrote: »

So the upcoming EO competition will be a great opportunity for them!

Will it? (i.e. a great opportunity for COs currently working in taxes in Revenue).

I wish I could share your optimism.

darragh o meara

another question wrote: »

Would anyone recommend the Career Services prep day for the online appitude next Saturday - it's €80 for 4 hours and a lot of take - home material. I know that a lot of people highly praise CS for their mature nursing prep days.

I done their course for the Ambulance service a few years back and found it to be excellent preparation for the test. I was pretty good at them anyway but they went into detail about the Interview which was helpful too.

denlaw

barneystinson wrote: »

43 is the hours of attendance, the working week is a 37-hour week.

How does that work?

InReality

Dothehustle wrote: »

havent a clue if there will be a AO competition soon
but yes any one can go for it

If its an external/open competition .

luckyboy

denlaw wrote: »

How does that work?

The 43 hours assumes a lunch break of 1 hour 10 minutes per day for each of the 5 days in the week. This doesn't count towards your 37 hours of work requirement. As the minimum lunch break is 30 minutes, it would be possible to only "attend" for 39.5 hours and get your 37 hours of work done. Equally, if you took the maximum of 2 hours lunch, you'd need to "attend" for 47 hours to get your 37 hours of work done ...

denlaw

luckyboy wrote: »

The 43 hours assumes a lunch break of 1 hour 10 minutes per day for each of the 5 days in the week. This doesn't count towards your 37 hours of work requirement. As the minimum lunch break is 30 minutes, it would be possible to only "attend" for 39.5 hours and get your 37 hours of work done. Equally, if you took the maximum of 2 hours lunch, you'd need to "attend" for 47 hours to get your 37 hours of work done ...

Do you have to take the hr and 10 for lunch or could you put it towards going home early on a Friday if you only took half an hr Monday till Thursday?

You'd think I had the job ;-)

barneystinson

gerbilgranny wrote: »

Will it? (i.e. a great opportunity for COs currently working in taxes in Revenue).

I wish I could share your optimism.

Well, you've already explained yourself why CO's from Revenue should be strong candidates, if the following is true:

gerbilgranny wrote: »

Many many COs employed in the taxes section of Revenue do work which is significantly more 'complicated' than average Clerical Officer work.

They should therefore find it easy to demonstrate the required competences, don't you think?

barneystinson

denlaw wrote: »

Do you have to take the hr and 10 for lunch or could you put it towards going home early on a Friday if you only took half an hr Monday till Thursday?

You'd think I had the job ;-)

If you read his reply again you'll see he's already answered that! You need to brush up on your verbal reasoning!

luckyboy

denlaw wrote: »

Do you have to take the hr and 10 for lunch or could you put it towards going home early on a Friday if you only took half an hr Monday till Thursday?

You'd think I had the job ;-)

No, you don't have to take the full hour and 10 for lunch. You can take as little as 30 mins or as much as 2 hours (lunchtime band spans the period 12.30-2.30pm) ...

The_Conductor

jjnaas wrote: »

I'm a TCO at the moment too. My EO told me that EO used to be graduate entry position before the recession. Ppl fresh out of college got it.Not sure really as all EOs here are in their 50s and
came in as COs out of school.

Also 80% of the TCOs here are over 35. Most of them 40+. 2 are college age.

I would guess myself that this CO competition will also attract a lot of older people. In my office there's 500 staff and I haven't seen any permanent staff under 30.

During the boom years- EO was defacto graduate recruitment level- though technically the graduate recruitment grade is AO (which is quite similar to a HEO role, only it tends to involve more research type roles, and you tend to have less staff reporting to you). Once upon a time AOs were fast tracked for AP- but this seems to have fallen by the wayside.

jjnaas wrote: »

Just to add to my previous post that I agree with this. Vast majority of COs never get promoted. There's a few real toppers here who've been COs for 20 odd years and most of them won't get promoted. It's a numbers game.
I think a lot of ppl who applied for the CO competition have intentions of climbing the ranks quickly but as above this is the real exception and not something to be pinning yer hopes on.

The vast majority of people don't get promoted. The last internal EO to HEO competitions had almost 60 candidates for each post on offer. There are very few recruitment posts.

There is an internal CO to EO competition coming up- which frankly is the first one in years. Any COs who have any ambition will go for it. A lot of people do get set in their ways though- and may be happy enough as they are- so you might be surprised at a lower number of candidates than you might otherwise expect.

sillysocks wrote: »

There are sample aptitude tests on the public jobs site. Decided to try a numerical one last night just to see, and was shocked when it came back with my results it also said that the 'pass' mark for the test was to get 8 out of 32 right! Surely that's a ridiculously low 'pass' mark?

The maths test is a lot harder than the sample test. Your main enemy tends to be time. That said- it is set at a very low level. It was seen as an equal opportunity attempt- as traditionally men were more likely to have taken maths at a higher level in their leaving certs than women. Also- its a pass mark- it doesn't go towards your overall grade for the set of exams- you have to get the 8 (or whatever) out of the 32, before they even look at the other exams. If you get the 8- its discarded, and your scored solely on the other tests.

Its an exclusion measure- aka- if you are incapable of getting 8 out of 32- you are automatically discarded from the process.

Divisadero wrote: »

As I said in previous posts just passing the test will not get you a job. There will be many applying for each vacancy and you will be ranked. So to have a good chance of an offer you need to do really well in the tests. Things may have changed but when I interviewed for CO I really got the impression that it was more a formality than a competitive interview. But without a high score in the tests I would not even have got an interview. My advice is to take the tests (questionnaire and aptitude) seriously as in my opinion they are the most important part of the process.

Lastest external competitions in general have over 100 candidates per post filled. The online test is the first exclusion measure- on which well over half of the candidates fall- if you pass these- you may be brought in for formal supervised testing- which another half will fall on- and from the remainder- a pass mark is determined, sufficient to interview enough candidates to meet the capacity of the organisation to interview them- and from this cohort- of those who pass the interview- they are ranked in order of their performance at interview (the online test scores etc will have been discarded).

The various stages of the process- are the only things that matter- at those particular stages. You need to pass the aptitude tests. You need to pass the supervised exams. You need to pass the interviews. Once you pass a stage- its over- and no longer counted. At the end of the entire process- the interview will have gotten you the job, if you're successful- but you'll have had to pass the other stages.

Divisadero wrote: »

Yes indeed. One factor is that they haven't been able to hire in real numbers in years. Another and this is just a theory is that jobs like a CO were not very attractive to young people during the height of the Celtic Tiger. There were higher paid jobs out there and in more appealing (dare I say glamorous) fields. Job security and a better pension isn't always a priority for someone straight out of school or college. At least not during a boom. My boss told me that during the Tiger years some CO's would leave the Civil Service within a week or two of starting. Some may have regretted their decision to leave the dreary old Civil Service when the recession hit. Others probably never looked back!

From about 2000 onwards- there was a policy of only replacing 1 in 6 or 1 in 8 employees (who retired or left etc), except in exceptional circumstances (which would require specific sanction to be filled). This was well before the boom really took off. The civil service became quite slim in numbers. Its probably a little less than 30,000 strong now (and this includes prison officers etc).

Diddlina wrote: »

so the first round is online tests and i'm guessing you get graded accordingly. does anyone know what comes next or how they assign people to various roles?

After the online tests- those who meet the required standard- are brought in for supervised tests. If you do not get a similar score in the supervised exams (aka if it differs markedly)- you are out of the process.

daithi84 wrote: »

I was one of the last people to be recruited in the public service for CO and that was 6 years ago. I was 22 at the time. I will be 30 this at the end of the year. Before the pay cuts and tax increases it was possible to live off the starting entry point wage. It was around 24k when i started. But the last few years have been terrible. My wages dropped significantly and those famous increments are only worth between €2-€5 a week after tax, so dont be getting excited for them. You will be expected to the same work as people who are paid 2 or 3 times your salary so you will have to aware of what jobs are not for your grade and make sure the people who are being paid more are doing their fair share of the work before you do it. I was lucky at the time i got the job as it was a permanent job, at the moment i am in the my last year of college and trying to get out of here. I feel like i have become totally institutionalised and need to venture out a bit. I wouldn't feel so down about the job if there were promotions and ways of making a career out of it but there is nothing, no motivation or reward or praise of any kind. When promotions do finally come up you will be competing with every other CO in the place aswell as non public servants so it will be tricky to even get the promotion.

Unfortunately- my own experiences are broadly similar to yours.
I had lots of wonderful ideas about how I'd progress. It hasn't happened.

Fooker wrote: »

Does anyone expect there to be an AO competition anytime soon?

Also, if one were to be hired as a CO can they enter into the AO competition?

Anyone can enter any external competition. There are no restrictions on internal candidates entering external competitions.

thisNthat

What seems to be the biggest obstacles in getting promotion in the public service? Is it qualifications or lack of? Too many applications for any advertised job?

I don't mean that to sound patronising but I'm just wondering why someone would stay in a job when after many years it didn't work out to be what they thought it would be?
especially when the years of experience in that job would be a great advantage in getting another job in other areas bar the public sector? Probably with better pay and promotional opportunities?

Just curious

The_Conductor wrote: »

Unfortunately- my own experiences are broadly similar to yours.
I had lots of wonderful ideas about how I'd progress. It hasn't happened.

The_Conductor

thisNthat wrote: »

What seems to be the biggest obstacles in getting promotion in the public service? Is it qualifications or lack of? Too many applications for any advertised job?

I don't mean that to sound patronising but I'm just wondering why someone would stay in a job when after many years it didn't work out to be what they thought it would be?
especially when the years of experience in that job would be a great advantage in getting another job in other areas bar the public sector? Probably with better pay and promotional opportunities?

Just curious

In recent competitions- there has been in excess of 50 applicants for each promotional position. So- the biggest obstacle would be a lack of promotional opportunities.

Some competitions are confined to those holding specific qualifications- and even then, experience may be used to rule candidates out before any other factors are taken into account- recently I was ruled out of a laboratory role- despite holding all the qualifications- because of a lack of experience in the area.

People stay in jobs for years- or even decades- when they get used to the job. Fear of change can be quite remarkable in some people.

Personally- I forewent a promotion- in exchange for a transfer to work in a particular location that was convenient for family life. Aka- I no longer have 3-4 hours a day in the car- and as I have young children- it is time I really appreciate. Money is not the sole reason for doing any particular job- there are other motivating factors- such as proximity to home, family friendly policies etc etc

Different things appeal to different people at different stages in their lives. You don't join the civil service for the money- wait till you see all the deductions you'll face........

At the moment- the civil service is about 70% female, and the average age is in or around 50. It is forseeable there will be a significant number of retirements in the coming years- however they will by an large be at the lower levels- which won't necessarily open positions for promotional prospects.

The main driver for a lot of people- includes the ability to take term time (unpaid summer leave), parental leave when they have young children (once again unpaid), and the flexible working hours that appeal often to those with young families.

People don't join the civil service for the money.