Clerical Positions in the Civil and Public Service

The One Doctor

nukie1978 wrote: »

In an organisation where about 66% of employees are female, over 88% of top jobs going to men is not suggestive men being discriminated against in terms of promotion.

But are men being discriminated again in terms of being hired at entry level? Have I less of a chance of getting a CO position based on my chromosones? Since I am in the running for a CO position, being discriminated against for that reason would seriously piss me off as it would change my relative position in the CO competition.

Also, the information I've seen so far is confusing. First it's suggested that we may have a better chance of getting a job then we thought due to COs retiring in 2015, and then it's implied that if we're male there's less of a chance of us even being considered for a role.

nukie1978

The One Doctor wrote: »

But are men being discriminated again in terms of being hired at entry level? Have I less of a chance of getting a CO position based on my chromosones? Since I am in the running for a CO position, being discriminated against for that reason would seriously piss me off.

There is no gender based discrimination in recruitment either, though plenty will claim this is the reason they're unsuccessful (rather than a huge number of applicants for a relatively small number of positions).

Women simply tend to apply in larger numbers (and stay in larger numbers), because of family friendly policies (such as flexi-time, shorter working year, job-sharing etc) make it easier for them to work while still doing traditional female tasks, such as dropping the kids to school, looking after them during the holidays, getting home in time to make dinner etc. These tasks are still predominantly left to women in Irish society (although not nearly so much as a few decades ago).

The_Conductor

The civil service used be seen akin to nursing or teaching- that is- there was a tradition of it being a predominantly female organisation. Men tended to rise to the higher positions- as the marriage ban was only overturned in the civil service in 1984 (when women married- they were expected to resign their post, had their pension contributions refunded to them, and they went home for a traditional married life).

Those women who gained promotion to more senior roles- tended to be those who were unmarried.

The age profile of the civil service has skewed massively upwards since 1996 (when the restrictions on recruitment were first instigated)- becoming more notable after the 1-in-6 replacement policy of 2002 (which was during the boom when people could walk into work pretty much anywhere). We now probably have the oldest age profile of a civil service globally- with just under 60% over the age of 50- and just under 4% under the age of 30. It really is quite remarkable. People in their 40s are often the youngest people in many offices.......

People in the lower grades (CO, SO, EO, HEO even AP) didn't really take up the early retirement scheme (I'm not going to glorify it calling it an incentivised early retirement scheme- essentially, if you left by a certain date, you got to go out on your pre-emergency legislation pay cut salary scale- if you missed the date- you got the post cut salary date. Given you needed 40 years service for a full pension (which is half your final salary)- most people in the lower grades simply couldn't make the math work.

So- we now have a civil service where almost 60% of staff are over the age of 50- under 4% under the age of 30- and finally the moratorium on recruitment and promotions is being lifted- after almost 20 years.......

The absolute moratorium on recruitment came in 2007- however, there was a previous 2002 agreement that only 1-in-6 vacancies would be filled- which came on foot of turbulent superannuation year of 1995........

Anyone who joined the service post 1995- is a full PRSI employee, on a different salary scale to reflect this- and is expected to draw the contributory old age pension to make up the bulk of their pension entitlements. There is even a nice little formula, generically known as COPC for calculating these rights. If, for whatever reason, a person does not qualify for a contributory old age pension- they do not have an automatic right to be topped up to 50% of final salary by their home department (though some cases of this nature have been sanctioned). For the lower grades- this means- a contributory OAP is about 220 Euro per week. Convert this into a final salary of 440 per week- and presto- the first 23k of your salary doesn't in fact earn you a civil service pension at all- just your PRSI pension.

Next consider- the age an old age pension can be drawn down at has been increased to 68- with the proposals to increase this further to 70 by 2020- and suddenly- you have a cadre of people who are chained to their posts (particularly at the lower grades).

There are proposals to unshackle pension rights- however, the first aim is to have the pension levy removed, then the salary reductions reversed (as the emergency financial legislation is wound down).

So- potentially- there is a significant cadre of civil servants rapidly approaching imminent retirement- to the tune of 16-20,000 of the entire service of 33,000- over the next decade (and much of the remaining 13-15,000 in the following decade)..........

Recruiting again at all recruitment grades has become urgent from a personnel planning and continuance perspective. So too, has promotion of competent civil servants to posts of responsibility- where knowledge loss can be minimised.

Anyone who joins the civil service over the next few years- is going to see remarkable change- as there is going to be a youthful cadre of civil servants coming up the ranks who will be determined to make their mark.

It is an organisation that is going to see massive change- come what may. There will be opportunities. There will be a sea change in how working in the public sector- and civil service in particular, are viewed.

The starting pay may be poor- but as rightly pointed out- pay isn't everything- there are family friendly policies, alongside the opportunities to avail of educational opportunities- that are not readily available elsewhere. The pension you accrue- is not what it used to be- its now a career average salary pension for new starts- but it is a defined pension, which is a dying breed- most defined benefit schemes in the private sector have closed in recent years......

Its better to look at the bigger picture- the non-pay remuneration elements of the job, the massive changes in personnel coming down the road etc etc The pay cuts will be restored over the next few years (with even the banks starting to give their staff pay rises- its increasingly difficult to justify impoverishing civil servants).......

The best of good luck to everyone.

gerbilgranny

nukie1978 wrote: »

Until recently there were seniority panels, where people were promoted on a combination of length of service and "suitability". "Suitability" meant primarily suitability as a drinking partner and/or taking the same break as the superior making the assessment. This has supposedly been done away with.

Recently in PeoplePoint 16 people were given acting up positions without any sort of a competition. Applications weren't even invited, just an email one day saying "Congratulations to all these people we just promoted!" Despite being part of DPER, which apparently has a policy of merit based competition for all promotions, including acting promotions. As far as I can figure out, the most senior people in each team picked their favourite friend and gave them a nice promotion and pay raise. They didn't even invite people to apply! In at least one other case, applications for permanent promotion weren't invited, so only two or three people in the know even got to apply (despite there being at least 100 people who were eligible to apply).

The union is not pleased, and neither is anyone else.

This is absolutely shocking!

The One Doctor

I get the impression that at 421 I'd be lucky indeed to get a position after hearing all this stuff. Certainly not in the next 6 months, anyway.

Zipppy

nukie1978 wrote: »

Until recently there were seniority panels, where people were promoted on a combination of length of service and "suitability". "Suitability" meant primarily suitability as a drinking partner and/or taking the same break as the superior making the assessment. This has supposedly been done away with.

Recently in PeoplePoint 16 people were given acting up positions without any sort of a competition. Applications weren't even invited, just an email one day saying "Congratulations to all these people we just promoted!" Despite being part of DPER, which apparently has a policy of merit based competition for all promotions, including acting promotions. As far as I can figure out, the most senior people in each team picked their favourite friend and gave them a nice promotion and pay raise. They didn't even invite people to apply! In at least one other case, applications for permanent promotion weren't invited, so only two or three people in the know even got to apply (despite there being at least 100 people who were eligible to apply).

The union is not pleased, and neither is anyone else.

'Not pleased'.....what exactly are the union(s) doing about this?

This goes against all agreed recruitment policies and the union certainly would have a case to have this practice stopped and even reversed...very important it is challenged to ensure same doesn't happen again...

The_Conductor

The One Doctor wrote: »

I get the impression that at 421 I'd be lucky indeed to get a position after hearing all this stuff. Certainly not in the next 6 months, anyway.

Keep in mind- there has been a complete moratorium- which was partially gotten around by the temporary employment of TCOs. There are some locations (such as Peoplepoint in Clonskeagh)- which have over a hundred TCOs in their own right....... Don't rule out getting a place- its entirely possible or even probable- that they will get to your number. Keep your chin up.

paul 27

i am out in clonskeagh as a TCO at the minute and the rumor is that 40 co are to start in the next two weeks so people will be getting calls soon i would say

swht

paul 27 wrote: »

i am out in clonskeagh as a TCO at the minute and the rumor is that 40 co are to start in the next two weeks so people will be getting calls soon i would say

I am working at the minute are they generally ok about working out notice, I should really be giving a month. I wouldn't like to only give my current employer a couple of weeks.

Nubbin

I have an interview on Thursday and I'm bricking it. I've applied for Cork, interview is in Dublin. Any idea where in Cork these jobs would be?

Nubbin

The One Doctor wrote: »

I get the impression that at 421 I'd be lucky indeed to get a position after hearing all this stuff. Certainly not in the next 6 months, anyway.

I'm 671 and I got an interview.

mariosuarez

The One Doctor wrote: »

I get the impression that at 421 I'd be lucky indeed to get a position after hearing all this stuff. Certainly not in the next 6 months, anyway.

I got a call today to sort out references and Garda vetting but I told them I didn't want it. I got a job during this long drawn out process that pays about €70 more per week and I would find it hard to take a cut in wages. I am still in for another region but jobs there may be limited. I would consider taking my home region if offered as living outside of Dublin would be cheaper and the pay cut would be manageable but I'm happy in my current job now. I was placed mid 40's in Dublin.

I'm sure a few will drop out and a few would have failed interview. You may be 399 on the list by now. I'd be confident you will get a job but as you are further down it will more than likely be around a year til you get it but I think you will eventually if you can hold out that long.

wotaccent

Nubbin wrote: »

I'm 671 and I got an interview.

Did you place 671 in Cork?

JohnMearsheimer

Nubbin wrote: »

I have an interview on Thursday and I'm bricking it. I've applied for Cork, interview is in Dublin. Any idea where in Cork these jobs would be?

Probably Revenue and Social Welfare according to the AP in my office.

Penguin100

mariosuarez wrote: »

I got a call today to sort out references and Garda vetting but I told them I didn't want it. I got a job during this long drawn out process that pays about €70 more per week and I would find it hard to take a cut in wages. I am still in for another region but jobs there may be limited. I would consider taking my home region if offered as living outside of Dublin would be cheaper and the pay cut would be manageable but I'm happy in my current job now. I was placed mid 40's in Dublin.

I'm sure a few will drop out and a few would have failed interview. You may be 399 on the list by now. I'd be confident you will get a job but as you are further down it will more than likely be around a year til you get it but I think you will eventually if you can hold out that long.

Can I ask what you mean by sorting references and Garda vetting. Had you given those details and filled out the form at the interview?

Well done on getting the job in the meantime. I would like my region too but I chose Kildare/Wicklow and Kildare would be fine but Wicklow would be a nightmare for me. So I might just take the Dublin one if they reach my number

eroc79

Nubbin wrote: »

I have an interview on Thursday and I'm bricking it. I've applied for Cork, interview is in Dublin. Any idea where in Cork these jobs would be?

Did you apply for the Dublin region too? Didn't think they'd started the other regions yet.

mariosuarez

Penguin100 wrote: »

Can I ask what you mean by sorting references and Garda vetting. Had you given those details and filled out the form at the interview?

Well done on getting the job in the meantime. I would like my region too but I chose Kildare/Wicklow and Kildare would be fine but Wicklow would be a nightmare for me. So I might just take the Dublin one if they reach my number

I didn't really discuss it with them. She just said there would be jobs soon and they had to go through references and Garda vetting. I assume it was to ask permission to contact references and confirm details. I think it was simple enough process.

swht

mariosuarez wrote: »

I got a call today to sort out references and Garda vetting but I told them I didn't want it. I got a job during this long drawn out process that pays about €70 more per week and I would find it hard to take a cut in wages. I am still in for another region but jobs there may be limited. I would consider taking my home region if offered as living outside of Dublin would be cheaper and the pay cut would be manageable but I'm happy in my current job now. I was placed mid 40's in Dublin.

I'm sure a few will drop out and a few would have failed interview. You may be 399 on the list by now. I'd be confident you will get a job but as you are further down it will more than likely be around a year til you get it but I think you will eventually if you can hold out that long.

Hey do you mind me asking if you put in for the airport jobs... just wondering because they haven't contacted me but I was placed a few places higher than you.

mariosuarez

gonzo.phd wrote: »

Hey do you mind me asking if you put in for the airport jobs... just wondering because they haven't contacted me but I was placed a few places higher than you.

No I didn't apply for airport.

Penguin100

mariosuarez wrote: »

I didn't really discuss it with them. She just said there would be jobs soon and they had to go through references and Garda vetting. I assume it was to ask permission to contact references and confirm details. I think it was simple enough process.

Thanks, this is all new to me.

Have only worked for very small organisations in the past and it was a much simpler process, mind you it was a very long time ago:-)

swht

mariosuarez wrote: »

No I didn't apply for airport.

Oh right thanks, I had so maybe I've been put on a different list and it's being dealt with separately.

dooey_01

gonzo.phd wrote: »

Oh right thanks, I had so maybe I've been put on a different list and it's being dealt with separately.

Didn't hear anything either - I applied for airport too.

Nubbin

eroc79 wrote: »

Did you apply for the Dublin region too? Didn't think they'd started the other regions yet.

No, just Cork.

paddycakes

Nubbin wrote: »

No, just Cork.

I placed 52nd in Cork and I've heard nothing about an interview!

sillysocks

Did you get called for interview without doing the second round of testing? Sounds like maybe it's for a different position if you did?

Nubbin

Yes, it is for Cork, no I had no second round of testing and yes, it is for the temporary clerical positions.

eroc79

Nubbin wrote: »

Yes, it is for Cork, no I had no second round of testing and yes, it is for the temporary clerical positions.

This board is about permanent co positions. You had me worried.

Nubbin

Sorry! I saw the title and assumed it was all CO positions.

Leo Demidov

Error checking

Nubbin

wexfjord wrote: »

Error checking

I didn't score too well in that category. Is there a TCO forum?