Scholes was better than Xavi and Pirlo

shadowcomplex

Ryu Hayabusa wrote: »

As you probably have as much understanding of football as a typical Man Utd bandwagon supporter and use goals, assists etc as a bar in rating players, I will use Steven Gerrard to illustrate my point

Steven Gerrard has scored more goals in less games than Paul Scholes
Steven Gerrard can actually tackle
Steven Gerrard is a leader not a follower like Paul Scholes(YOUR OPINION)
Steven Gerrard can head the ball(SO CAN SCHOLES)
Steven Gerrard scored more penalties(STEVEN GERRARD HAS TAKEN MORE PENALTIES)
Steven Gerrard scored more frees(STEVEN GERRARD HAS TAKEN MORE FREES)
Steven Gerrard is more athletic than Paul Scholes(SO, MUTE POINT.USAIN BOLT IS MORE ATHLETIC THAN STEVEN GERRARD)
Steven Gerrard has a higher % of through ball assists than Paul Scholes(DOES LAST NIGHTS ONE COUNT)

I'm have the same amount premier league medals as Steven Gerrard

Paul Scholes has 11

I rest my case

Lemonandice20

Ryu Hayabusa wrote: »

As you probably have as much understanding of football as a typical Man Utd bandwagon supporter and use goals, assists etc as a bar in rating players, I will use Steven Gerrard to illustrate my point

Steven Gerrard has scored more goals in less games than Paul Scholes
Steven Gerrard can actually tackle
Steven Gerrard is a leader not a follower like Paul Scholes
Steven Gerrard can head the ball
Steven Gerrard scored more penalties
Steven Gerrard scored more frees
Steven Gerrard is more athletic than Paul Scholes
Steven Gerrard has a higher % of through ball assists than Paul Scholes

But ultimately his net effect on Liverpool is to make them worse, I doubt very much Man U were better without Scholes.

bmcc10

niallo27 wrote: »

Trophies shouldn't come into it. By the way I think scholes was a better player than Gerrard, but not the huge gap people think.

Neither should meaningless stats or for that matter Gerard and Lampard in a Discussion not involving them.

niallo27

shadowcomplex wrote: »

I'm have the same amount premier league medals as Steven Gerrard

Paul Scholes has 11

I rest my case

Giggs was better than all of them so if that's what your going by.

Fescue

shadowcomplex wrote: »

I'm have the same amount premier league medals as Steven Gerrard

Paul Scholes has 11

I rest my case

I wish people would stop using that as a means to place one player above another. Apart from the fact it makes no sense, it also makes no sense.

shadowcomplex

niallo27 wrote: »

Giggs was better than all of them so if that's what your going by.

NO he wasnt

Turtwig

bmcc10 wrote: »

Ye suppose your right Scholes=11 PL titles -Gerard=0. Why was Gerard and Lampard even brought into the discussion?

By your logic, Jose Maneul Pinto is a better goalkeeper than David De Gea or Manuel Neuer.

Trophies don't tell us how good a player is.

Ulysses Gaze

shadowcomplex wrote: »

I'm have the same amount premier league medals as Steven Gerrard

Paul Scholes has 11

I rest my case

If you go by that Rationale then Xavi is better than Scholes because at Barca he won 7 league titles, 3 champions leagues and won a World Cup and two European Championships.

You can't base how great a player was on the amount of team trophies they won alone

rolliepoley

Make of this what you like, gerrard according to this is'nt even in the ball park.

Gerrard, scholes, lampard.

http://www.givemesport.com/381385-who-is-better-scholes-v-lampard-v-gerrard#./381385-who-is-better-scholes-v-lampard-v-gerrard?&_suid=140328857522806066115774454848

Each page shows stats.

fatherted1969

Does Gerrards assist last night count i wonder

Anyway i'm biased and have seen 20 times more Man Utd games than any other so don't expect any sense from me. All three fantastic players but I'll always go for Scholes, he scores goals he scores goals

shadowcomplex

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

If you go by that Rationale then Xavi is better than Scholes because at Barca he won 7 league titles, 3 champions leagues and won a World Cup and two European Championships.

You can't base how great a player was on the amount of team trophies they won alone

scholes still has more overall titles

LuckyLloyd

bmcc10 wrote: »

Scholes would be appreciated far more by fans if he was Spanish or Italian.

I know he's so under appreciated like...no wait, he's not. Scholes is rightly considered one of the finest midfield playmakers of the past 20 years.

If anyone wants him to be considered better than Pirlo or Xavi it would help if:

- he had had some success in International football;
- turned in some defining individual International football performances ala Ince versus Italy in 1997 or Keane versus Portugal in 2001;

and, you know:

- been as good as them;

He was great player, he is rated appropriately as such. Xavi revolutionized the game. Pirlo plays with a grace rarely seen in the history of the game. Noone is getting done here.

Ulysses Gaze

shadowcomplex wrote: »

scholes still has more overall titles

But Xavi won more of the big International ones.

Fescue

shadowcomplex wrote: »

scholes still has more overall titles

I do think Scholes was a brilliant player but I think he has gotten a lot better since he retired.

bmcc10

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I know he's so under appreciated like...no wait, he's not. Scholes is rightly considered one of the finest midfield playmakers of the past 20 years.

If anyone wants him to be considered better than Pirlo or Xavi it would help if:

- he had had some success in International football;
- turned in some defining individual International football performances ala Ince versus Italy in 1997 or Keane versus Portugal in 2001;

and, you know:

- been as good as them;

He was great player, he is rated appropriately as such. Xavi revolutionized the game. Pirlo plays with a grace rarely seen in the history of the game. Noone is getting done here.

Well if Gerard and Lampard are being mentioned in the same breath as him by people he clearly isn't.

LuckyLloyd

bmcc10 wrote: »

Ye suppose your right Scholes=11 PL titles -Gerard=0. Why was Gerard and Lampard even brought into the discussion?

Danny Welbeck = 1 EPL Title; Alan Shearer = 0 EPL Title so...ye Gods.

munster87

Roquentin wrote: »

"Gerrard can actually tackle."

Thats not even a stat, just an observation

Needs to stay on his feet more though!

CSF

I just don't get why you'd judge great centre midfielders on goal/assist tallies. Keane and Vieira (the 2 best of the Premiership era) would be horrified.

Roquentin

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Scholes may be better than Pirlo and Xavi.

But Iniesta is better than Scholes.

different players entirely.

Turtyturd

Fescue wrote: »

I do think Scholes was a brilliant player but I think he has gotten a lot better since he retired.

Second half of this hits the nail on the head. Would be a much fairer comparison if Xavi and Pirlo have WWE retirements.

Fescue

CSF wrote: »

I just don't get why you'd judge great centre midfielders on goal/assist tallies. Keane and Vieira (the 2 best of the Premiership era) would be horrified.

A better assessment might be who is the most influential player?

Keane was way more influential than Scholes for Utd in my opinion.

Roquentin

Pirlo for me

Benimar

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Danny Welbeck = 1 EPL Title; Alan Shearer = 0 EPL Title so...ye Gods.

Eh...1995?!

Wonda-Boy

Xavi, Scholes, Pirlo In that order.

Zidane was and always will be KING!

Roquentin

niallo27 wrote: »

What ever it is. It's true.

Ok if we are going that low,

Steven gerrard is better looking.
Steven Gerrard has a better wife.
Steven Gerrard wears a nicer shirt.
Steven Gerrard drives a faster car.
Steven Gerrard is more funny...
And so on............

Most of what he said what just observations that can be debated.

They dont make him a better all round player though. Gerrard had more energy, i give him that. But technically there is a gulf between the two, a huge one.

Fescue

Roquentin wrote: »

Ok if we are going that low,

Steven gerrard is better looking.
Steven Gerrard has a better wife.
Steven Gerrard wears a nicer shirt.
Steven Gerrard drives a faster car.
Steven Gerrard is more funny...
And so on............

Most of what he said what just observations that can be debated.

They dont make him a better all round player though. Gerrard had more energy, i give him that. But technically there is a gulf between the two, a huge one.

Thats an observation.

shadowcomplex

Off topic I know but how sexy is this team


Cafu

---

Stam

---

Vidic

---

R,Carlos

---

Scholes

---

Keane

---

---

Zidane

---

messi

---

Suarez

---

Ronaldo

Lemonandice20

Scholes was a fantastic player because he was consistent, reliable, a very goo passer and an excellent eye for goal. However he lacked creativity imo at the top level. The sort of creativity that players such as Zidane, Redondo, Iniesta, Xavi and Pirlo had at their peaks.

Roquentin

Fescue wrote: »

A better assessment might be who is the most influential player?

Keane was way more influential than Scholes for Utd in my opinion.

They were both influential but in different ways. keane used tear into teams and raise the whole united team. scholes used use his guile to sort of raise the team. Worked well

Actually, on the gerrard subject. The amount of times i saw keane destroy gerrard was amazing. He would just match him one on one.

Wonda-Boy

And he had Asthma.....:pac::pac:

v3ttel

Ryu Hayabusa wrote: »

As you probably have as much understanding of football as a typical Man Utd bandwagon supporter and use goals, assists etc as a bar in rating players, I will use Steven Gerrard to illustrate my point

Steven Gerrard has scored more goals in less games than Paul Scholes
Steven Gerrard can actually tackle
Steven Gerrard is a leader not a follower like Paul Scholes
Steven Gerrard can head the ball
Steven Gerrard scored more penalties
Steven Gerrard scored more frees
Steven Gerrard is more athletic than Paul Scholes
Steven Gerrard has a higher % of through ball assists than Paul Scholes

shadowcomplex

Lemonandice20 wrote: »

Scholes was a fantastic player because he was consistent, reliable, a very goo passer and an excellent eye for goal. However he lacked creativity imo at the top level. The sort of creativity that players such as Zidane, Redondo, Iniesta, Xavi and Pirlo had at their peaks.

Scored more and created more than all of them

DM_7

Xavi was extraordinary but he needed Busquets and Iniesta for both Barcelona and Spain. I don't think that should be ignored. Obviously that is taking something away from him which isn't something I want to do but I always have it in my mind when considering how good he is/was.

Pirlo for me is better than him now at least but I would get it hard to say who was better at their peak. The fact Pirlo has stayed so good, for so long would lead me to say he was the best of those two. Maybe Xavi will surprise me yet.

Sitting in the fence about the actual topic as I am too biased to argue it as a United fan. Scholes had a brilliant career and is my favourite player.

Like Xavi needing others, at his peak Scholes needed Keane to play his best and get the best use of his skills, but I also consider how Keane was a player that was restricted by his knee injury in the 90s, at a time where a cruciate had high potential to be a career ending injury so its a credit to Scholes imo that Keane played for so long after that injury. He changed a lot between his peak and the end of his career and his role changed which is something I have a lot of respect for. The fact he won titles and a European Cup after Keane left and played with Carrick or Fletcher during that time makes me love him even more.

Roquentin

Lemonandice20 wrote: »

Scholes was a fantastic player because he was consistent, reliable, a very goo passer and an excellent eye for goal. However he lacked creativity imo at the top level. The sort of creativity that players such as Zidane, Redondo, Iniesta, Xavi and Pirlo had at their peaks.

I disagree. he didnt do step overs, but was able to shimmy past players and retain the ball. His creativity was his vision mainly. He could see passes that no one else could see, bar xavi or pirlo. Young verratti has the same ability as well.

There are groups:

1) Pirlo/scholes/xavi
2)Modric/schnijer.......

Modric and snijerder are just below these lads.

Iniesta is a different player. Hes like a false 10 in the mould of mata or silva

munster87

Lemonandice20 wrote: »

Scholes was a fantastic player because he was consistent, reliable, a very goo passer and an excellent eye for goal. However he lacked creativity imo at the top level. The sort of creativity that players such as Zidane, Redondo, Iniesta, Xavi and Pirlo had at their peaks.

When was Pirlo's peak?

niallo27

What are his stats like in major championships for England.

Roquentin

DM-ICE wrote: »

Xavi was extraordinary but he needed Busquets and Iniesta for both Barcelona and Spain. I don't think that should be ignored. Obviously that is taking something away from him which isn't something I want to do but I always have it in my mind when considering how good he is/was.

Pirlo for me is better than him now at least but I would get it hard to say who was better at their peak. The fact Pirlo has stayed so good, for so long would lead me to say he was the best of those two. Maybe Xavi will surprise me yet.

Sitting in the fence about the actual topic as I am too biased to argue it as a United fan. Scholes had a brilliant career and is my favourite player.

Like Xavi needing others, at his peak Scholes needed Keane to play his best and get the best use of his skills, but I also consider how Keane was a player that was restricted by his knee injury in the 90s, at a time where a cruciate had high potential to be a career ending injury so its a credit to Scholes imo that Keane played for so long after that injury. He changed a lot between his peak and the end of his career and his role changed which is something I have a lot of respect for. The fact he won titles and a European Cup after Keane left and played with Carrick or Fletcher during that time makes me love him even more.

I agree, pirlo in the whole is the best i have seen. IMO. some go for xavi. They are all geniuses

Roquentin

Fescue wrote: »

Thats an observation.

Touché

n32

Liam O wrote: »

Scholes played a very different role to the other 2 early in his career based more around dynamic attacking.

I'm going to sit on the fence on this one and say they are the best in their positions in English, Italian and Spanish football in my lifetime

Ah, theres a politician deep inside you! The most diplomatic answer I ve seen in a long time:pac:

n32

niallo27 wrote: »

What are his stats like in major championships for England.

what are george bests stats like at major tournaments or ryan giggs stats or liam brady, ian rush, george weah etc etc.. Those players never played at major championships but it never called their class into question. Scholes was criminally misused by England through no fault of his own.

shadowcomplex

Roquentin wrote: »

Ok if we are going that low,

Steven gerrard is better looking.
Steven Gerrard has a better wife.
Steven Gerrard wears a nicer shirt.
Steven Gerrard drives a faster car.
Steven Gerrard is more funny...
And so on............

Most of what he said what just observations that can be debated.

They dont make him a better all round player though. Gerrard had more energy, i give him that. But technically there is a gulf between the two, a huge one.

Steven Gerrard should be in jail

niallo27

n32 wrote: »

what are george bests stats like at major tournaments or ryan giggs stats or liam brady, ian rush, george weah etc etc.. Those players never played at major championships but it never called their class into question. Scholes was criminally misused by England through no fault of his own.

They never qualified for major championships, you can't compare them. He still played 66 games for England and retired early.

niallo27

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Steven Gerrard should be in jail

Bit harsh. What did he do now.

n32

niallo27 wrote: »

They never qualified for major championships, you can't compare them. He still played 66 games for England and retired early.

he reitred because the likes of Sven played him on the wing instead of in his proper position. Instead Ericksson decided to listen to the media and persist with Gerrard and Lampard when it was clear it didnt work.

Ryu Hayabusa

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Some will disagree but the stats don't lie

1. Scored twice as many goals as both
2. three times the assists of both
3. More trophies than both

So agree or disagree?

You are correct that the stats don't lie, Xavi has won more trophies than Paul Scholes.

niallo27

n32 wrote: »

he reitred because the likes of Sven played him on the wing instead of in his proper position. Instead Ericksson decided to listen to the media and persist with Gerrard and Lampard when it was clear it didnt work.

Wouldn't he just get on with. Is Rooney going to retire after the same happened to him.

Nuri Sahin

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Off topic I know but how sexy is this team


Cafu

---

Stam

---

Vidic

---

R,Carlos

---

Scholes

---

Keane

---

---

Zidane

---

messi

---

Suarez

---

Ronaldo

Serious lack of Victor Moses, David May, Glen Johnson and Andre Santos.

Nuri Sahin

Nuri Sahin wrote: »

- - - - - - - - Scholes - - - - - - - -

Scholes - Scholes - Scholes - Scholes

- - - - - - Scholes - Scholes - - - - -

Scholes - - - - Scholes - - - - Scholes

- - - - - - - -Glen Johnson - - - - - - -

Pirlo and Xaxi on the bench with more Scholes.

The best bit was when you picked scholes

Rayne Wooney

Scholes' international career was going fine until Sven got the job, he was first choice CM in the 02 World Cup but they got knocked out in the quarters by one of the best teams of all time.

Liam O

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Off topic I know but how sexy is this team


Cafu

---

Stam

---

Vidic

---

R,Carlos

---

Scholes

---

Keane

---

---

Zidane

---

messi

---

Suarez

---

Ronaldo

Ah -nothing like a sly fantasy 11 thrown in. Was that the point of starting the thread?