Forced Market Research on Trains

end of the road

Vic_08 wrote: »

She was surveying tickets of passengers nothing more, on behalf of IE which would make her an authorised person.

You seem to have a problem with simple logic; a condition of using IE services is that you provide when requested your travel documents for whatever reason and to whoever IE choose.

wrong, unless said staff is a member of the revenue protection unit he is under no obligation to hand over anything, IE "choosing" doesn't matter, she was doing a survey

end of the road

Vic_08 wrote: »

Why, are the CoC suspended anytime foggy boards a train?

IE are entitled to sub-contract work to whomever they want. If this person was working under the instruction of IE then they are authorised to check ticket details.

Next thing foggy will be complaining that the rail gourmet staff on the trolleys are not genuine and he is at risk of being sold an unauthorised can of coke.

This thread is about nothing more than foggy's inflated sense of entitlement, ironic but utterly predictable that it is the person not paying a cent kicking up over this while all those around him paying for their travel as well as funding his were not bothered at all.

doesn't matter whether IE subcontract work or not, unless the staff member is a member of the revenue protection unit charged with checking tickets, one is under no obligation to allow them see the ticket, end of discussion

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They only want to check tickets to build a passenger profile using services etc. Complete over reaction from people here about the surveys. They are not new and you don't have to take part. I really can't see the issue here!

hand out a question air

foggy_lad

Julius Seizure wrote: »

The issue is with her recording PPS numbers!

The issue is with her pretending to be someone she was not, she never once told people she was not working for Irish Rail and even when I asked who she worked for her answer was "I am doing a ticket check on behalf of Irish Rail". I then asked did she work for Irish Rail and did she have any staff ID or a Rail warrant she said she worked for a company called Amárach.

Banjoxed wrote: »

Anyone else reported this elsewhere? I'm sure the OP wasn't the only passenger to experience this.

Most people happily believed she was a bona fide ticket checker so had no complaint but they are also unaware that their journey and possibly their details have been recorded by some sleazy(if they operate like this) marketing company.

Hilly Bill

Vic_08 wrote: »

Why, are the CoC suspended anytime foggy boards a train?

IE are entitled to sub-contract work to whomever they want. If this person was working under the instruction of IE then they are authorised to check ticket details.

Next thing foggy will be complaining that the rail gourmet staff on the trolleys are not genuine and he is at risk of being sold an unauthorised can of coke.

This thread is about nothing more than foggy's inflated sense of entitlement, ironic but utterly predictable that it is the person not paying a cent kicking up over this while all those around him paying for their travel as well as funding his were not bothered at all.

This would have affected anyone regardless of the ticket type they held.
You are mistaking someone only doing a survey to official IR staff checking tickets.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

She went through the carriages like a ticket checker would, stopped at each table and row of 2 seats and asked for tickets by calling out "tickets" in the same way that IE ticket checkers regularly do. She took the tickets and examined them then wrote details onto an a4 form sheet in a folder which had dozens of similar forms filled in. if the ticket was a social welfare ticket she demanded the pass from the passenger or student card if a student ticket. she then wrote details of the pass including PPS number or travel card onto the form and returned tickets passes etc to the passengers and moved onto the next table.

Sounds like a lunatic to me, are you sure that she was really doing a survey?

I find it strange that anyone would have showed her their ticket.

Hilly Bill

Julius Seizure wrote: »

The issue is with her recording PPS numbers!

No actual proof that she did.

Hilly Bill

Banjoxed wrote: »

Anyone else reported this elsewhere? I'm sure the OP wasn't the only passenger to experience this.

One fella on twitter. Maybe thats where the OP got the story from.

circular flexing

I was asked to take part in this survey too a couple of weeks ago. All they wanted was what station I boarded at, destination, how often I used the train, what kind of ticket I had and what age range I was in. I was not asked for my name or to see my ticket and their form didn't even have a space for a name or PPS number as far as I could see.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

The issue is with her pretending to be someone she was not, she never once told people she was not working for Irish Rail and even when I asked who she worked for her answer was "I am doing a ticket check on behalf of Irish Rail". I then asked did she work for Irish Rail and did she have any staff ID or a Rail warrant she said she worked for a company called Amárach.

Most people happily believed she was a bona fide ticket checker so had no complaint but they are also unaware that their journey and possibly their details have been recorded by some sleazy(if they operate like this) marketing company.

Are you going to complain to Amarach as well or just IR? Just dont see a mention on it.

Seeing this happened on one train only i still think the thread title is misleading. Market research on the 1pm train to Cork would have made more sense.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

No actual proof that she did.

I saw her writing the number off the free travel pass from the person sitting across the aisle from me.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

I saw her writing the number off the free travel pass from the person sitting across the aisle from me.

Thats proof enough so

No complaints on their Twitter page.

foggy_lad

circular flexing wrote: »

I was asked to take part in this survey too a couple of weeks ago. All they wanted was what station I boarded at, destination, how often I used the train, what kind of ticket I had and what age range I was in. I was not asked for my name or to see my ticket and their form didn't even have a space for a name or PPS number as far as I could see.

I can't speak for your experience as I was not on that train but Passengers on my train were asked for tickets and student cards free travel passes etc as well as being told that it was an Irish Rail ticket check and mandatory, nobody that I could see was asked if they wanted to take part!

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Are you going to complain to Amarach as well or just IR? Just dont see a mention on it.

Seeing this happened on one train only i still think the thread title is misleading. Market research on the 1pm train to Cork would have made more sense.

Already done. Also there is no evidence this didn't happen on many other trains but just not complained about as most if not all those affected believed it to be a bona-fide Irish Rail ticket check!

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

I can't speak for your experience as I was not on that train but Passengers on my train were asked for tickets and student cards free travel passes etc as well as being told that it was an Irish Rail ticket check and mandatory, nobody that I could see was asked if they wanted to take part!


Already done. Also there is no evidence this didn't happen on many other trains but just not complained about as most if not all those affected believed it to be a bona-fide Irish Rail ticket check!

There is no evidence that it happened on that train either.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

There is no evidence that it happened on that train either.

Just my statements to Irish Rail, The data commissioners office and Amárach concerning what happened and how the survey was conducted.

may06

Hilly Bill wrote: »

One fella on twitter. Maybe thats where the OP got the story from.

Broad statement...what reason have you to doubt the OP and his experiences. Unless you were on that same train that is, which it's apparent you weren't. Is OP's experience not evidence enough for you that that is what happened? Or perhaps you may have evidence to counter his claim..?

Hilly Bill

may06 wrote: »

Broad statement...what reason have you to doubt the OP and his experiences. Unless you were on that same train that is, which it's apparent you weren't. Is OP's experience not evidence enough for you that that is what happened? Or perhaps you may have evidence to counter his claim..?

Previous threads on here.

A thread on here is no evidence at all.

may06

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Previous threads on here.

A thread on here is no evidence at all.

True...so you are implying he is lying?

Hilly Bill

may06 wrote: »

True...so you are implying he is lying?

Its a possibility .

Five Lamps

foggy_lad wrote: »

Just my statements to Irish Rail, The data commissioners office and Amárach concerning what happened and how the survey was conducted.

What personal data was collected that would concern the data commissioner?

By the sounds of it, no personal data was collected. You say PPS numbers but another poster says otherwise. Unless personal data is recorded you can't bother the Data Commissioner. Even with PPS numbers, unless IR or the contractor have another database to cross reference against then even a PPS number or student card number is pretty anonymous.

Having said that, the contractor needs to be upfront that they are conducting a survey irrespective of what kind of data they are collecting.

foggy_lad

Five Lamps wrote: »

You say PPS numbers but another poster says otherwise.

was the other poster on the same train?

Five Lamps

foggy_lad wrote: »

was the other poster on the same train?

Can you confirm without doubt that the person recorded a name and PPS number as opposed to a pass number?

Also you mention that other passengers were asked for name and address?

If all the above is correct then you could argue that data was not being "fairly obtained" i.e. in an upfront and transparent manner.

foggy_lad

Five Lamps wrote: »

Can you confirm without doubt that the person recorded a name and PPS number as opposed to a pass number?

Also you mention that other passengers were asked for name and address?

If all the above is correct then you could argue that data was not being "fairly obtained" i.e. in an upfront and transparent manner.

I saw her writing down one persons pass number from the front of their free travel pass, I always assumed that this was the same as your PPS number, and she was doing quite a lot of writing with other passengers tickets obviously recording the ticket details and any other information on the tickets like name address etc.

Other passengers were not asked for name or address, she took all details from the tickets and student cards and free travel passes etc.

Yes the data was absolutely not fairly obtained as she led people to believe that she worked for Irish Rail and was doing a legitimate ticket check.

Hilly Bill

By all accounts, 99% of passengers on that train was asked according to the OP. How he know this is a mystery.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

I saw her writing down one persons pass number from the front of their free travel pass, I always assumed that this was the same as your PPS number, and she was doing quite a lot of writing with other passengers tickets obviously recording the ticket details and any other information on the tickets like name address etc.

Other passengers were not asked for name or address, she took all details from the tickets and student cards and free travel passes etc.

Yes the data was absolutely not fairly obtained as she led people to believe that she worked for Irish Rail and was doing a legitimate ticket check.

Have you ever been on the enterprise up north Foggy.

Did you see what she had written or are you just assuming thats what she did?

mickydoomsux

Just thought i'd throw my tuppence in as an IE employee.

We got an e-mail about this and were informed that the staff from this company were to be allowed free access to where ever they needed but we weren't told what they would actually be doing.

Seems like a passenger survey of some kind which is a bit pointless because there is already one done once or twice a year anyway.

That said, there was a recent internal employee survey done by an external company that gave management a bit of a slap in the face (the landslide consensus was that even IE employees think that the company is horrendously managed by people who don't have a clue how the actual cut and thrust of public transport works) so maybe this is a similar survey in regard to passengers.

Five Lamps

foggy_lad wrote: »

I saw her writing down one persons pass number from the front of their free travel pass, I always assumed that this was the same as your PPS number, and she was doing quite a lot of writing with other passengers tickets obviously recording the ticket details and any other information on the tickets like name address etc.

Other passengers were not asked for name or address, she took all details from the tickets and student cards and free travel passes etc.

Number of a pass is not necessarily personally identifyable information (unless IR can cross reference and collate it with another database they have access to). He/she could have been recording the type of pass it was. Same for student cards - perhaps the college of issue. As for regular purchased tickets, there's no personal data on those. If there was - there's a lot of personal data to be found of the floors of trains and stations.

Yes the data was absolutely not fairly obtained as she led people to believe that she worked for Irish Rail and was doing a legitimate ticket check.

She was working for IR as an agent but if the "survey" happened as you describe it then it wasn't done in a transparent manner irrespective of what information was being collected.

Hilly Bill

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Just thought i'd throw my tuppence in as an IE employee.

We got an e-mail about this and were informed that the staff from this company were to be allowed free access to where ever they needed but we weren't told what they would actually be doing.

Seems like a passenger survey of some kind which is a bit pointless because there is already one done once or twice a year anyway.

That said, there was a recent internal employee survey done by an external company that gave management a bit of a slap in the face (the landslide consensus was that even IE employee think that the company is horrendously managed by people who don't have a clue how public transport works) so maybe this is a similar survey in regard to passengers.

And there was me thinking IR was trying to save money and they employ these lot to do surveys. I could have done with a trip to Cork so i would have done the survey myself on the way down

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

By all accounts, 99% of passengers on that train was asked according to the OP. How he know this is a mystery.

Please explain the bolded part of your post. how is what has already been explained in some detail still such a mystery to you?

BeerSteakBirds

foggy_lad wrote: »

I got the train to Cork earlier today and the strangest thing happened during the journey:D

I boarded in Portlaoise and there was a woman going through the whole train "checking" tickets. you might ask what is strange about that because trains regularly have ticket checks but this woman was not an Irish Rail or RPU employee but was working for a company called Amárach doing market research!

Just to be clear this woman was not asking passengers if they would like to take part in a survey or if she could ask them a few questions about their journey but she was going to every table and row of seats demanding to see tickets from passengers as if she was an RPU agent. There was no mention at all of market research or her taking personal details including names addresses and PPS numbers for a private research company!

All the passengers I saw obviously thought she was a legitimate ticket checker and obliged when she turned to them and said "tickets please". She was writing down the particulars of each ticket including the numbers etc for the online printout tickets and she was also demanding to examine free travel passes from passengers with social welfare tickets and writing down details from the passes including name and PPS numbers! Passengers clearly thought she worked for Irish Rail. There may also be data protection issues with this woman gather this information from passengers who believe she works for Irish Rail not some research company!

I asked the train host what she was up to and he told me who she was and that she apparently had permission to be on the train, He told me that I did not have to show her my ticket or answer her questions if I did not want to.

She had a letter that gave her permission to be on station concourses and platforms and also on vehicles but only where passengers had access. It did not give any permission to take, check or record passengers details or their travel arrangements.

Anyway she got to me and I asked what she was doing and she said a ticket check so I asked was she an Irish Rail employee and she went into a speil about how her company are doing a survey on trains for Irish Rail so she is working for Irish Rail and is authorised to check tickets and also demand and check all free travel passes and other travel cards and student cards.

At this stage I asked if she had a rail warrant card or an Irish Rail staff ID as advised by someone on the Rail users Ireland twitter feed. She said no so I refused to show my ticket and told her I did not want to take part in any market research or survey. she then told me about her letter giving her permission to do all her ticket checking so I asked to see that but she said she didn't have it because the driver had it. What was she doing in the driving cab if she only had permission to go where passengers were allowed?

Anyway was I right to create a little mini-scene on the train?(there was no shouting or fisticuffs) Should I have just handed over my information to a company acting in such a sleazy manner?

Was this woman right to be forcing a captive audience to take part in a survey they knew nothing about and allowing passengers to think she was an RPU agent/Irish Rail staff by her manner and actions?





TL;DR Woman pretended to be irish rail ticket checker to gather market research information from people who may not have entertained her if they were told the truth. Might also be data protection issues.

You were dead right. The world is full of chancers who work for marketing research companies and they very often misrepresent themselves.


I encountered similar tactics in Heathrow Airport on the way back from the states. A marketing person with a clipboard annoying very tired travellers with an overly aggressive manner which made them believe she was from homeland security or working for airport police or something until I figured her out and told her to stop pestering me.

Five Lamps

BeerSteakBirds wrote: »

You were dead right. The world is full of chancers who work for marketing research companies and they very often misrepresent themselves.


I encountered similar tactics in Heathrow Airport on the way back from the states. A marketing person with a clipboard annoying very tired travellers with an overly aggressive manner which made them believe she was from homeland security or working for airport police or something until I figured her out and told her to stop pestering me.

Generally, those "chancers" are casual field staff who are probably getting minimum wage.

I have participated in one of those traveller surveys in both Dublin and Gatwick airports and I can't see why anybody would need to misrepresent themselves for a few simple questions.

It seems people are over dramaticising these simple traveller surveys.

foggy_lad

Five Lamps wrote: »

Generally, those "chancers" are casual field staff who are probably getting minimum wage.

I have participated in one of those traveller surveys in both Dublin and Gatwick airports and I can't see why anybody would need to misrepresent themselves for a few simple questions.

It seems people are over dramaticising these simple traveller surveys.

I can see that time-wise it will take a lot longer to go to every table and row of seats and introduce yourself, say why you are there and answer questions from passengers before you get to ask them your questions than if you can just sweep through and avoid all the questions and just act like a train ticket checker.

BeerSteakBirds

Five Lamps wrote: »

Generally, those "chancers" are casual field staff who are probably getting minimum wage.

I see. So they were being paid to be there while I was not. I was on zero wage while they pestered me. Annoying me and acting like it was a police interview [exploiting innocent peoples fear of authority] after I had been travelling dead tired and sleepless for the previous 24 hours puts them on the same level as Chuggers in my view. No wage is worth becoming a liar and a conman. A minimum wage which expects you to con people is even more pathetic. And those who sent them there are earning far more than minimum wage !

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

Please explain the bolded part of your post. how is what has already been explained in some detail still such a mystery to you?

You didnt explain how you know that 99% of the people on that train was fooled. You are saying that everyone on that train was fooled apart from you.

Did you do a follow up survey ?

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

I can see that time-wise it will take a lot longer to go to every table and row of seats and introduce yourself, say why you are there and answer questions from passengers before you get to ask them your questions than if you can just sweep through and avoid all the questions and just act like a train ticket checker.

They dont need to got to every table, just a few random ones.

Pat Mustard

OP, apart from any complaint that you may decide to make to the Data Protection Commissioner (which can be emailed), it sounds like you have identified an important issue concerning the treatment of train passengers' privacy rights.

Maybe you would consider emailing a letter to one of the national newspapers in order to highlight the issue to a wider audience.
lettersed@irishtimes.com

People should be made aware of this.

No Pants

BeerSteakBirds wrote: »

I see. So they were being paid to be there while I was not. I was on zero wage while they pestered me. Annoying me and acting like it was a police interview [exploiting innocent peoples fear of authority] after I had been travelling dead tired and sleepless for the previous 24 hours puts them on the same level as Chuggers in my view. No wage is worth becoming a liar and a conman. A minimum wage which expects you to con people is even more pathetic. And those who sent them there are earning far more than minimum wage !

Do what I do: I agree that they can ask their questions, but they must walk with me. I walk fairly quickly between flights/terminals and I don't stop on escalators or walkways either.

foggy_lad

I just want to say again that I have no problem with People doing market research on the train or luas or even the bus if they have permission from the operator and are up front about who they are and what they are doing.

They should state who they are and what they are doing and then either leave a questionnaire to be collected later or ask a few non intrusive questions like where you are going and where you started your journey and the purpose(leisure/work/voluntary/carer), and how you paid for the journey(free travel/Student/adult/child ticket bought online or in booking office or vending machine).

They should emphasise that participation is 100% voluntary and that all questions do not need to be answered.

Hilly Bill

The Mustard wrote: »

OP, apart from any complaint that you may decide to make to the Data Protection Commissioner (which can be emailed), it sounds like you have identified an important issue concerning the treatment of train passengers' privacy rights.

Maybe you would consider emailing a letter to one of the national newspapers in order to highlight the issue to a wider audience.
lettersed@irishtimes.com

People should be made aware of this.

Only if its a slow news week.
There is no issue. ONE person on ONE train allegedly took down some details for a survey.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

I just want to say again that I have no problem with People doing market research on the train or luas or even the bus if they have permission from the operator and are up front about who they are and what they are doing.

They should state who they are and what they are doing and then either leave a questionnaire to be collected later or ask a few non intrusive questions like where you are going and where you started your journey and the purpose(leisure/work/voluntary/carer), and how you paid for the journey(free travel/Student/adult/child ticket bought online or in booking office or vending machine).

They should emphasise that participation is 100% voluntary and that all questions do not need to be answered.

Thats exactly what they do Foggy, no point in trying to make a wider issue based on one person not having a clue as to what she was allegedly doing.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Thats exactly what they do Foggy, no point in trying to make a wider issue based on one person not having a clue as to what she was allegedly doing.

Have you done a survey of surveyed passengers that proves your post? Can you show that it was only one person on all the trains she has worked on? She said she was trained that way so I would assume that others working for the same company might operate in a similar way.

steveblack

Your getting you knickers in a twist over nothing.
This site and all others use cookies to track your web browsing.
Mobile phones can track your every move.
Google, Microsoft and Apple, can and have been found to track users.
Just forget about it and don't worry, if the powers than be want to track you and find out information about you they won't be using a survey, they will just use your mobile phone and internet use to find out everything about you.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

Have you done a survey of surveyed passengers that proves your post? Can you show that it was only one person on all the trains she has worked on? She said she was trained that way so I would assume that others working for the same company might operate in a similar way.

Did you survey the train that you were allegedly on to come up with your 99%?

Ive seen them doing the survey Foggy.

You only allegedly saw it on ONE train Foggy so why are you making an issue that its happening on a lot of trains?

So basically, all you are going on is assumptions? Did this happen at all Foggy? If its not on Joe Duffy then it didnt happen

Hilly Bill

steveblack wrote: »

Your getting you knickers in a twist over nothing.
This site and all others use cookies to track your web browsing.
Mobile phones can track your every move.
Google, Microsoft and Apple, can and have been found to track users.
Just forget about it and don't worry, if the powers than be want to track you and find out information about you they won't be using a survey, they will just use your mobile phone and internet use to find out everything about you.

That me fecked so .

Pat Mustard

steveblack wrote: »

Your getting you knickers in a twist over nothing.
This site and all others use cookies to track your web browsing.
Mobile phones can track your every move.
Google, Microsoft and Apple, can and have been found to track users.
Just forget about it and don't worry, if the powers than be want to track you and find out information about you they won't be using a survey, they will just use your mobile phone and internet use to find out everything about you.

So, your position is if people give certain permissions to certain companies to take their information from their phones, and if certain other organisations can take their information illegally and without their consent, that if some market research company demands their information on a train, claiming to have the right to do so, it's no big deal.

Doesn't make a lot of sense.

steveblack

The op has got on his high horse, all his post should have been was a warning to others that you dont have to do this survey.
He did not do the survey, so why get all worked up about it.
Some of the posters in this tread got more than a hint of paranoia about them.

The op has 13,598 post on this site, if anyone wanted to build up a detailed profile of him, im sure there would be enough info in there to tell you everything you would want to know.
All of this info has been given freely, so to get worked up about a survey which he did not participate in, is a bit hysterical.

Pat Mustard

steveblack wrote: »

All of this info has been given freely, so to get worked up about a survey which he did not participate in, is a bit hysterical.

There is a world of difference between information that is freely given and information that is demanded under some apparent authority.

Hilly Bill

The Mustard wrote: »

There is a world of difference between information that is freely given and information that is demanded under some apparent authority.

I think someone got the wrong end of the stick and added the word forced and demanded for extra affect, especially when the OP is making out that its a widespread thing based on one alleged incident plus that he had to seek advise from a twitter feed before showing his details.
From what i can see is that the OP, saw this woman walking through the carriage and he thought he would have some fun with her (Not that way ) especially when he asks in the first post as to whether he was right to make a mini scene.

I think its a case of a nothing trying hard to be a something in this instance.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

I saw her writing the number off the free travel pass from the person sitting across the aisle from me.

Was she standing up when when she was doing this and were you sitting down?

Why didnt you say in the OP that the train host had a word with her about it?

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I think someone got the wrong end of the stick and added the word forced and demanded for extra affect, especially when the OP is making out that its a widespread thing based on one alleged incident plus that he had to seek advise from a twitter feed before showing his details.

You are doing a lot of thinking about this and coming up with an interpretation that makes no sense at all.

I told it as it happened, This woman demanded/made a demand of passengers that they produce their tickets and other documents which would be used in purchasing the tickets, It was forced by virtue of her acting as an authorised ticket checker and making demands of passengers who knew no different.

From what i can see is that the OP, saw this woman walking through the carriage and he thought he would have some fun with her (Not that way ) especially when he asks in the first post as to whether he was right to make a mini scene.

I think its a case of a nothing trying hard to be a something in this instance.

What exactly are you accusing me of here?