Drafting 2014 Bitchfest Megathread :(

tunney

Podge83 wrote: »

Remember on Saturday... after Kilkee's tough swim... scrunch up the number, get on the bike and relax.... Just make sure you follow a nice ar5e...

And even if you get done, its still worth it as the penalties so light

tunney

tunney wrote: »

And even if you get done, its still worth it as the penalties so light

So I gather this was actually the attitude adopted. Peletons of riders, few penalties, groups of tenet plus riders. Total farce is what I was told. Is there a pint to racing in Ireland anymore?

Podge83

tunney wrote: »

So I gather this was actually the attitude adopted. Peletons of riders, few penalties, groups of tenet plus riders. Total farce is what I was told. Is there a pint to racing in Ireland anymore?

Farce....... No........ Its all about getting away with it. Yeeha

damo80

You'd say something if it was a train of 10 riders but there were groups off 30 odd riders spread across both lanes today. There only so much a marshal can do.

Fazz

Indeed it was a shame for a National Champs, but also a result of the high standards and competition.

The problem for me is the marshalling, and of course the guilty parties who of course can't measure out 10 metres of road ahead of them, or acknowledge they have 5 seconds to drop back when passed not make a surge and try hold on...

Personally, I thought the Bike Marshals were shocking at Kilkee.
Having raced Tri an Mhi where there were a lot of penalties dished out for a small field - 28 or so and around 15% of the entries, Kilkee had as far as I know maybe 6 dished out for 5 times the field!
There were only 2 numbers when I passed the penalty box but heard later this may have risen to 6.

So the marshals were plainly far too lenient.
Yes there's a lot of athletes on the road, and you can't penalise everyone but at least do something instead of nothing!
For a National Champs it really put a dampener on it.
Did it effect the top results? Well, from what I saw it quite possibly did for the females but men's perhaps not so much.

I also witnessed some very dangerous cycling that went unpunished when it was right beside a marshal and a bike marshal followed and had words with the competitor. Bizarre. It was a DQ offence alone and could have caused a very serious accident for the competitor or anyone coming against him.

I've a little more on the subject but don't think this is the right place for it and can't upload video.
May post something to my site soon on it.

Green&Red

The TI website says

"Please Note: there were a large number of penalties and DQ's issued for offences such as drafting"

Is 6 a large number?

Fazz

No it's not. Did this rise at all I wonder?

Tri an Mhi had 30 penalties applied to around 200 competitors. So 15% then.

Kilkee. Well, not worth mentioning is it.

Really hope they sort it for Lost Sheep, I witnessed a too 5 athlete draft there last year and all it takes is for a few bike marshals to at least monitor the top 10 or so to ensure prizes aren't affected.

The rest is down to allowing numbers of athletes on the course at same time.
At least Lost Sheep has a climb to break things up early.
Kilkee allowing mad numbers is always going to be virtually impossible to monitor especially in the big fields/most groups out at same time.

RacoonQueen

Why are DQ's and penalties not listed as part of the results?

Should be beside the name etc...no shame in it if 98% of people don't know you were caught cheating.

miller82

its great that no one on here drafts and everyone is so against it. what are the chances

mossym

miller82 wrote: »

its great that no one on here drafts and everyone is so against it. what are the chances

or that those who do keep their mouth shut...;)

Huff n Puff

miller82 wrote: »

its great that no one on here drafts and everyone is so against it. what are the chances

The only person I truly believe is Fazz! But given the right circumstances I believe even Ian would - maybe a dodgy pace line at the Ironman later this year!

Everyone else is claiming to be whiter than snow. Highly unbelievable. I am not even that white myself and I am well able to cycle.

At some point nearly everyone drafts, be it pulling out too close to someone. Pulling out of a draft box too slowly. Tucking in behind someone for 20 seconds as they pass. Blaming others as we pass in and out of the draft zone at the back. Its very hard not to draft given the structure and popularity of Irish races. Its not just Irish races; drafting has always been an issue and always will be.

Try and enjoy the race and don't get too hung up on the drafting. Yes some races are worse than other and hopefully a solution comes soon but don't let that spoil the fun of race day.

mossym

i think peoples main gripes were the rolling peletons that knew enough about what they were doing to break up at the sight/sound of a motorbike.

I'm pretty sure, as Shane said, you could decimate the field if you dq'd everyone for even the slightest transgression.

tunney

mossym wrote: »

i think peoples main gripes were the rolling peletons that knew enough about what they were doing to break up at the sight/sound of a motorbike.

I'm pretty sure, as Shane said, you could decimate the field if you dq'd everyone for even the slightest transgression.

And what harm:

"Oh sh1t mossym is the race ref, you hear he dq'ed the top twenty in XYZ??? Best race legal"

Also technically decimate is one in ten, so thats 100 out of 1000 in kilkee, or fair as I have been told

transylman

One Strava feature that the drafters appear to be unaware of is the activity playback.

http://labs.strava.com/flyby/viewer/#159656166

note:not my segement, using this one as he does not appear to have been drafting

Pretty obvious train forming at the front half way through and only breaking up again going up the hill again on the return. I also know some of these guys to have done the same thing in at least one other race this year.

lopesc

transylman wrote: »

One Strava feature that the drafters appear to be unaware of is the activity playback.

http://labs.strava.com/flyby/viewer/#159656166

note:not my segement, using this one as he does not appear to have been drafting

Pretty obvious train forming at the front half way through and only breaking up again going up the hill again on the return. I also know some of these guys to have done the same thing in at least one other race this year.

That's not what that app does. Unless everyone started the bike at the same time, you can't infer that anybody was drafting using activity playback.

transylman

lopesc wrote: »

That's not what that app does. Unless everyone started the bike at the same time, you can't infer that anybody was drafting using activity playback.

Yes it is, everyones positions are given in real time.

Green&Red

Heres two scenarios that came up on Sunday, in a much smaller race

Scenario 1: I had just passed three lads, when I had a mechanical with my saddle, it dropped to the base and I had to cycle like that. So now we're all travelling at much the same speed for a while. I had enough on my plate than to look behind me but I've no reason to think that the lads were drafting. On the return theres a good hill and the legs are burned off me and I'd say my pace is all over the shop. One lad passes me and I sit 12-15m behind him, a good pace line. Then the two other boys pass me, with not 10m between them but enough of a gap to keep me happy. So I ease off and let the gap open to around 10 again before I give out to myself, tell myself to stop feeling sorry for myself and overtake all three of them.
That was fine in a race with 100 people and two waves. In a race at kilkee you would constantly be passed by ones, at the point where you decide "f**k this" someone else has passed you and my the rules you are meant to drop back and it repeats. The point at which you put the foot down and race back is drafting. You havent dropped back out of the exclusion zone because if you did another one would have started. And the race can in essence be a series of these "f**k this" moments when people are getting passed and then pick up their pace. 400 people doing this leads to drafting but each can explain it to themselves. Its a tough one I think

Scenario 2: After I had passed the three lads I said thats it, no one is going by me again. One guy tried and as soon as I saw him attempting I picked up my speed. So now he is caught out to my right, getting no draft but in the draft zone (and therefore drafting) and its my doing. He sits there for maybe 40 seconds before ha cant hold the pace and drops back.

Briando

Green&Red wrote: »

Heres two scenarios that came up on Sunday, in a much smaller race

Scenario 1: I had just passed three lads, when I had a mechanical with my saddle, it dropped to the base and I had to cycle like that. So now we're all travelling at much the same speed for a while. I had enough on my plate than to look behind me but I've no reason to think that the lads were drafting. On the return theres a good hill and the legs are burned off me and I'd say my pace is all over the shop. One lad passes me and I sit 12-15m behind him, a good pace line. Then the two other boys pass me, with not 10m between them but enough of a gap to keep me happy. So I ease off and let the gap open to around 10 again before I give out to myself, tell myself to stop feeling sorry for myself and overtake all three of them.
That was fine in a race with 100 people and two waves. In a race at kilkee you would constantly be passed by ones, at the point where you decide "f**k this" someone else has passed you and my the rules you are meant to drop back and it repeats. The point at which you put the foot down and race back is drafting. You havent dropped back out of the exclusion zone because if you did another one would have started. And the race can in essence be a series of these "f**k this" moments when people are getting passed and then pick up their pace. 400 people doing this leads to drafting but each can explain it to themselves. Its a tough one I think

Scenario 2: After I had passed the three lads I said thats it, no one is going by me again. One guy tried and as soon as I saw him attempting I picked up my speed. So now he is caught out to my right, getting no draft but in the draft zone (and therefore drafting) and its my doing. He sits there for maybe 40 seconds before ha cant hold the pace and drops back.

How about

Scenario 3: You get out on to the cycle and you coach is waiting up to pace you around the course giving you a bit of a tow.

Is that drafting or just some unsporting conduct?

fluboy

Not sure if this idea has been mentioned previously.



Do you think it is a good idea for TI to work with each race organiser in providing athletes equipped with the relatively cheap helmet or body cameras. I feel that many of those people who do draft are listening and watching out for the motorbike officials. When they hear them they simply drop back or overtake in order to get out of the draft zone.



TI could invest in three or four of these cameras and have a large panel of experienced triathletes who will wear the cameras and will go out on the bike leg and actively look for those cheating. The proof will be there for all to see. Good idea or bad?

Green&Red

Briando wrote: »

How about

Scenario 3: You get out on to the cycle and you coach is waiting up to pace you around the course giving you a bit of a tow.

Is that drafting or just some unsporting conduct?

Oh good, an intelligent response

tunney

fluboy wrote: »

Not sure if this idea has been mentioned previously.



Do you think it is a good idea for TI to work with each race organiser in providing athletes equipped with the relatively cheap helmet or body cameras. I feel that many of those people who do draft are listening and watching out for the motorbike officials. When they hear them they simply drop back or overtake in order to get out of the draft zone.



TI could invest in three or four of these cameras and have a large panel of experienced triathletes who will wear the cameras and will go out on the bike leg and actively look for those cheating. The proof will be there for all to see. Good idea or bad?

Bad. For so many reasons.

The only realistic solution are appropriate number of entrants for courses and perhaps running the races under a different body than Triathlon Ireland. One that at least attempts to address issues.

tunney

Briando wrote: »

How about

Scenario 3: You get out on to the cycle and you coach is waiting up to pace you around the course giving you a bit of a tow.

Is that drafting or just some unsporting conduct?

are you talking about the external pacing on the bike or the stuff that was seen on the run? Good job the people in question didn't place highly

Oh my bad you were talking about the bike.....

mirrormatrix

tunney wrote: »

Bad. For so many reasons.

The only realistic solution are appropriate number of entrants for courses.

How do you do this without increasing what already are fairly expensive entry fees? I would imagine a similar amount of organisation (and no. of marshalls) is required for the bike leg regardless of the number of entrants.

tunney

mirrormatrix wrote: »

How do you do this without increasing what already are fairly expensive entry fees? I would imagine a similar amount of organisation (and no. of marshalls) is required for the bike leg regardless of the number of entrants.

Emmmm how did they do it before?
Also prices have sky rocketed.

I watched one of my lads racing a very very well organised sprint tri recently. Good set up, reasonable prices, food afterwards and a good dj.

Small field, small price.

Ceepo

Briando wrote: »

How about

Scenario 3: You get out on to the cycle and you coach is waiting up to pace you around the course giving you a bit of a tow.

Is that drafting or just some unsporting conduct?

sure that would never happen, would it ??????

fluboy

tunney wrote: »

Bad. For so many reasons.

Well what are the reasons

Clum

It's not up to competitors or participants to referee a race. The TI appointed officials are responsible for ensuring a fair race.

If triathletes are handed the responsibilities and ability to report "cheating" this will lead to even worse corruption of the sport. Athletes might target guys they know they need to beat for an age group place or a better National Series standing. Athletes might target people who have previously reported them in other races. There's no fairness in racers reporting each other.

In no other competitive sport do the competitors referee the event themselves.

If we want to stop drafting we need race organisers to use much smaller waves (closer to 100 rather than 300+) and a larger gap between each wave (like 10 minutes for a sprint, 15 to 20 minutes for a standard distance). And on top of that have officials dish out penalties left, right and centre where appropriate.

EC1000

Clum wrote: »

It's not up to competitors or participants to referee a race. The TI appointed officials are responsible for ensuring a fair race.

If triathletes are handed the responsibilities and ability to report "cheating" this will lead to even worse corruption of the sport. Athletes might target guys they know they need to beat for an age group place or a better National Series standing. Athletes might target people who have previously reported them in other races. There's no fairness in racers reporting each other.

In no other competitive sport do the competitors referee the event themselves.

If we want to stop drafting we need race organisers to use much smaller waves (closer to 100 rather than 300+) and a larger gap between each wave (like 10 minutes for a sprint, 15 to 20 minutes for a standard distance). And on top of that have officials dish out penalties left, right and centre where appropriate.

Self policing does not necessarily mean reporting other athletes - it means taking responsibility for your own actions. Look at golf and snooker - two (cough) sports where competitors are vilified if they are found not to have called a foul that they committed - completely different I know but an element of self policing/responsibility is vital also.

Clum

EC1000 wrote: »

Self policing does not necessarily mean reporting other athletes - it means taking responsibility for your own actions. Look at golf and snooker - two (cough) sports where competitors are vilified if they are found not to have called a foul that they committed - completely different I know but an element of self policing/responsibility is vital also.

Absolutely. Totally agree. But asking us to report on others, or wear cameras, etc, won't work.

Podge83

fluboy wrote: »

Not sure if this idea has been mentioned previously.



Do you think it is a good idea for TI to work with each race organiser in providing athletes equipped with the relatively cheap helmet or body cameras. I feel that many of those people who do draft are listening and watching out for the motorbike officials. When they hear them they simply drop back or overtake in order to get out of the draft zone.



TI could invest in three or four of these cameras and have a large panel of experienced triathletes who will wear the cameras and will go out on the bike leg and actively look for those cheating. The proof will be there for all to see. Good idea or bad?

Good that people are thinking of solutions, but this one is daft and it wont work. This dog wont fight!!

However as numbers have grown and the roads re busier. Smaller, more spread out waves are one answer.

In fairness to all, you must make it practical to time trial without huge barriers in your'e way!!

Organizers will keep on increasing numbers and TI are letting them do it (maybe sometimes forcing it) They seem to look at the Transition and see how many they can squeeze in.

What about safety out on the road. Cyclists in large groups (and that's what it is, like it or not) going two ways on open narrow roads is dangerous, especially when everyone is cycling as fast as they can - and more and more are getting squeezed in!