Drafting 2014 Bitchfest Megathread :(

fluboy

Fair points.

At the end of the day we all want the drafting to stop. This was just an idea. The point about athletes targeting a rival, I don't really get. You cant target somebody who is not drafting. Whats the point and anyway if they do target them and catch them drafting then that's great, they have proof of drafting.

By the way, Golf is self policed and the vast vast majority of people would never dream of cheating in any way, no matter how small a rule it is. It is also the job of your playing partner/opponent to report anything that they think might be a breach of the rules. The playing ethics surrounding golf could and should be similar to triathlons

Podge83

fluboy wrote: »

Fair points.

At the end of the day we all want the drafting to stop. This was just an idea. The point about athletes targeting a rival, I don't really get. You cant target somebody who is not drafting. Whats the point and anyway if they do target them and catch them drafting then that's great, they have proof of drafting.

By the way, Golf is self policed and the vast vast majority of people would never dream of cheating in any way, no matter how small a rule it is. It is also the job of your playing partner/opponent to report anything that they think might be a breach of the rules. The playing ethics surrounding golf could and should be similar to triathlons

As has been said on here in various threads before, pictures can be misleading. Take enough pictures/ short films at any race and nearly all would be seen to be drafting at some stage (in the picture)

Fazz

tunney wrote: »

are you talking about the external pacing on the bike or the stuff that was seen on the run? Good job the people in question didn't place highly

Oh my bad you were talking about the bike.....

Seeing as this is common knowledge it seems, and pretty much everyone heard about the run scenario - I don't actually think there's any rule being broken on that one.
The rule is if a Coach is on the sidelines/watching etc, but in the above scenario it was another competitor and so technically no rule infringement afaik...


The bike scenario, well, it seems that particular club/team has a notorious rep for it from various different reports/races I've heard on it.
A shame for racing to be that way but hopefully it will be less frequent as more ref's start to use video's etc.
All they've done is give themselves a bad name and got some results that perhaps were not fairly won.
A sad way for amateur's in sport imo.

EC1000

Fazz wrote: »

Seeing as this is common knowledge it seems, and pretty much everyone heard about the run scenario

Can you enlighten us without naming names? Pretty sure i know what club you are referring to but what happened in kilkee?

RacoonQueen

Fazz wrote: »

Seeing as this is common knowledge it seems, and pretty much everyone heard about the run scenario - I don't actually think there's any rule being broken on that one.
The rule is if a Coach is on the sidelines/watching etc, but in the above scenario it was another competitor and so technically no rule infringement afaik...

Pretty sure they said in the race briefing that pacing on the run was not allowed even by another competitor?

mirrormatrix

It's pretty clear that taking responsibility for your actions is not something that people are willing to do when it comes to drafting. In sports like golf or snooker, the majority of people come up through the junior ranks where they are taught sporting etiquette. Perhaps this is why there is not the same sense of integrity in triathlon. If on your first race you see others flagrantly cheating, you probably would equate drafting to diving in football. It is considered socially acceptable to draft (clubmates/marshalls/spectators etc. wouldn't give you dogs abuse for it), and the benefits can easily outweigh the risks.

I think that smaller waves at races would help, but I don't think this is the answer. The problem is with TI. If people are blatantly cheating in front of the MO's and aren't getting carded, then this means that the MO's are being too lenient in applying penalties. I can't imagine that they are taking matters into their own hands in this regard, suggesting that TI are not giving these officials the proper training.

On the subject of cameras, do MO's have helmet cams? If not, could this be an area where TI could improve? Get the MO's to give out penalties more liberally and then have the video evidence to back it up if anyone does appeal after the race?

Insidious

I have not been in any of these races.. but it seems the simple and obvious solution is just to allow drafting. Then nobody is cheating and it's a level playing field again.... Nobody gets annoyed and everyone just enjoys being out there!

sconhome

Insidious wrote: »

I have not been in any of these races.. but it seems the simple and obvious solution is just to allow drafting. Then nobody is cheating and it's a level playing field again.... Nobody gets annoyed and everyone just enjoys being out there!

The solution is for people to train properly, read the rules of the sport you have chosen and abide by them, simple.

Draft legal races are just not viable in AG racing.

RacoonQueen

AKW wrote: »

The solution is for people to train properly, read the rules of the sport you have chosen and abide by them, simple.

Draft legal races are just not viable in AG racing.

It would be absolute carnage if you had ITU style drafting!

Podge83

RacoonQueen wrote: »

It would be absolute carnage if you had ITU style drafting!

And everyone would have to sell their TT bike - imagine the thread on that!

mirrormatrix

Positive steps from TI: http://www.triathlonireland.com/index.php?id=107&nid=1856

Green&Red

No use if they are not enforced

Podge83

Looks like a set of sensible proposals. Tougher penalties and with a more spread out race should be more enforceable.

A notable point is the "blocking" issue - this is the most frustrating element of racing when your swim mightn't be great and you can cycle faster than those around you. Often when in this position groups build up and it looks like you are drafting. A quick question to you experts:

What do you do - when waiting behind the rider in front while you are looking for your opportunity to pass the rules say that you should be 12 m back from their front wheel - but when your opportunity comes you mightn't have the time to pass due to the distance you wait back - what are you supposed to do?



Quote from article:

"some events such as Kilkee the Gardai may insist on fewer waves"

I know this would keep the roads busier for a slightly shorter period, but surely when the roads are open it makes them much more dangerous - surely doesn't make sense. Especially in Kilkee when the local people including farmers in tractors use the roads as though there is no event on anyway!!

sconhome

Podge83 wrote: »

What do you do - when waiting behind the rider in front while you are looking for your opportunity to pass the rules say that you should be 12 m back from their front wheel - but when your opportunity comes you mightn't have the time to pass due to the distance you wait back - what are you supposed to do?

You wouldn't be waiting in a queue like formation. Assuming you are making continual forward progress you will overtake the person anyway.

The 12m drafting rules apply to people sitting in a train unable (or no desire) to overtake. You are allowed (if there is space on the road & safe) three abreast in overtaking manoevers. Let them know you are coming through.

The biggest issue I have is people who sit in the middle of the road, oblivious to people trying to get past. Move over to the left and leave room for people to come through. Always be aware that there may be faster cyclists coming behind you.

peter kern

Green&Red wrote: »

No use if they are not enforced

I think this is not a very good reply. I would think that for the first time in a long time TI actually really thought about this and this is a very good step in the right direction.

You are off course right whit what you are saying but still I think this is a comment that is not really helpful. It would betterr to say this is a step in the right direction which needs to be enforced to be really effective, and you are right nothing is being said that one needs a number of draft marshalls ( not all of them need to be on a motorbike)
At least TI's steatemnt sends at least a signal and admits there is a problem. and its better than giving a 30 sec penality a few years ago in kilkee which totally send the wrong message So give them at least some kudos for it.

speedyj

Podge83 wrote: »

What do you do - when waiting behind the rider in front while you are looking for your opportunity to pass the rules say that you should be 12 m back from their front wheel - but when your opportunity comes you mightn't have the time to pass due to the distance you wait back - what are you supposed to do?
!

What works for me 90% of the time is to shout "on your right" when about 5-10m back. People generally move in quick enough, I might have to soft pedal for a second but no big deal. And then I say thanks. I do wonder sometimes if my shouts sound aggressive (not meant to be) but it has to be loud to be heard. Or if there's a dashed white line i may go to the other side of the road - after looking over my shoulder and ahead for traffic. The odd time that neither has worked then accept the short break and take some deep breaths :-) the delay seems like forever but it's usually nothing..

I did have one instance in kilkee where I was sitting about 1ft from 3 people blocking the road for about 50m while I asked them to move.. I was thinking alright that it'd be my luck to get busted - yes for that 50, I was drafting no question..

Podge83

AKW wrote: »

You wouldn't be waiting in a queue like formation. Assuming you are making continual forward progress you will overtake the person anyway.

The 12m drafting rules apply to people sitting in a train unable (or no desire) to overtake. You are allowed (if there is space on the road & safe) three abreast in overtaking manoevers. Let them know you are coming through.

The biggest issue I have is people who sit in the middle of the road, oblivious to people trying to get past. Move over to the left and leave room for people to come through. Always be aware that there may be faster cyclists coming behind you.

Fair play, but i was in the position for much of Kilkee where I was struggling to get past people. The roads at kilkee, when traffic is two way don't allow three abreast. You try to let people (sitting in the middle of the road) know you are coming through but it doesn't always work - often they wont drop back.

Had an issue lately where I was overtaking a fella and I was under pressure from behind by someone overtaking me and wanted to get back in to the side asap. Instead of dropping back when I overtook, he tried to stay with me and threw abuse at me for pulling in too soon. If he abided by the rules I wouldn't have had a problem, yet I got the abuse

sconhome

Podge83 wrote: »

Instead of dropping back when I overtook, he tried to stay with me and threw abuse at me for pulling in too soon. If he abided by the rules I wouldn't have had a problem, yet I got the abuse

Snot rockets

Podge83

AKW wrote: »

Snot rockets

Was thinking of lower down liquid relief but there was a few more around including a lady - I resisted.

scuba05

A little bit of power is a dangerous thing.

I question the pedigree of some of the marshals. A portion of these guys have never really suffered physically. They go and get involved in something like marshalling without any real appreciation of the blood sweat and toil we put in behind the scenes. The hard training sessions on your own, pushing yourself under extreme conditions that feeds our competitive desire.
They see a microcosm of being a triathlete from the comfort of their motor bike saddle. Its the luck of the draw as to whether or not the right people receive the penalties/disqualifications, on the day.
There are so many permutations and interpretations on the new drafting rules. I'll bet that there are one or two marshals out there itching to put their new found authority into practice on the big day. And, bully for you, if you happen to be the victim.

I think revision of the cycle routes currently being used is a greater priority.

I say this on the grounds of basic safety. During Tri Athy,I experienced a close shave on a narrow stretch of road where I made a legitimate overtake. An oncoming cyclist was of the same mind. A close call and both of us were totally within our entitlement to do so.

I'll even extend this view to the run. Also, during Tri Athy, I found it horrendous to have to try and complete 10k, given the underfoot terrain and the width of the running path.

I know I've digressed from the core issue. But for my money, the real issue in triathlon in Ireland is not drafting. It's the sheer volume of competitors of varying abilities competing for the same stretch of road, path, water, mostly during NS events.

It seems to me that its become a numbers game. Cram in everyone and make as much profit as possible.

Podge83

scuba05 wrote: »

A little bit of power is a dangerous thing.

I question the pedigree of some of the marshals. A portion of these guys have never really suffered physically. They go and get involved in something like marshalling without any real appreciation of the blood sweat and toil we put in behind the scenes. The hard training sessions on your own, pushing yourself under extreme conditions that feeds our competitive desire.
They see a microcosm of being a triathlete from the comfort of their motor bike saddle. Its the luck of the draw as to whether or not the right people receive the penalties/disqualifications, on the day.
There are so many permutations and interpretations on the new drafting rules. I'll bet that there are one or two marshals out there itching to put their new found authority into practice on the big day. And, bully for you, if you happen to be the victim.

I think revision of the cycle routes currently being used is a greater priority.

I say this on the grounds of basic safety. During Tri Athy,I experienced a close shave on a narrow stretch of road where I made a legitimate overtake. An oncoming cyclist was of the same mind. A close call and both of us were totally within our entitlement to do so.

I'll even extend this view to the run. Also, during Tri Athy, I found it horrendous to have to try and complete 10k, given the underfoot terrain and the width of the running path.

I know I've digressed from the core issue. But for my money, the real issue in triathlon in Ireland is not drafting. It's the sheer volume of competitors of varying abilities competing for the same stretch of road, path, water, mostly during NS events.

It seems to me that its become a numbers game. Cram in everyone and make as much profit as possible.

You make some good points, but the fact that must be dealt with is that more people want to take part. Drastic limiting of numbers will drive people out of the sport and increase race fees considerably.

The wave proposals in TI's recommendations are a big step forward IMO if they are used and Garda madness (on time spent by the race, as a whole, on the road) doesn't rule.

Some courses (eg Tri Athy) will always be dangerous while they persist with narrow roads and insist putting two way traffic on them though! If The whole of Tri Athy was on the Main road it would improve a lot due to the wave spread. However the run there is a disaster (off topic). nother problem in Tri Athy is two different races being on the road at the same time (oly and double)

Green&Red

peter kern wrote: »

I think this is not a very good reply. I would think that for the first time in a long time TI actually really thought about this and this is a very good step in the right direction.

You are off course right whit what you are saying but still I think this is a comment that is not really helpful. It would betterr to say this is a step in the right direction which needs to be enforced to be really effective, and you are right nothing is being said that one needs a number of draft marshalls ( not all of them need to be on a motorbike)
At least TI's steatemnt sends at least a signal and admits there is a problem. and its better than giving a 30 sec penality a few years ago in kilkee which totally send the wrong message So give them at least some kudos for it.

Peter, I'd disagree with you on it being a step in the right direction.
For me the issue at the minute is not the length of the penalty, people are drafting because they are not being penalised for it, they dont need to worry whether its one minute or ten minutes the penalty is.
A few races with zero tolerance of drafting would go along way towards solving the problem. stop a big pelathon and everyone off for a minute or two minutes. But actually enforcing the rules rather than making the rules more punative but still not enforcing them.


On a side note I think all penalties should be done holding your bike above shoulder height, it would be a much greater incentive

MAntoD

Raced Two Provinces on Sat. Spent the entire bike leg chasing a group of six who were straight up team time trialing for the majority of the ride. I made two attempts to pass them on the way out and was blocked by the same guy in the group who would pull out in front of me when he saw me coming up on the outside so I had to drop back. Eventually, a draft marshal pulled up beside them on the way out and showed no cards(?????). After the turn a different marshal came past me and after watching them for over a minute only gave 3 yellow cards. IMO they all should have been done the first time. There's no point in them increasing the penalties if they're still going to be soft with the rules! I was in a similar situation in Dunmore East and there were no penalties at all there!

If things continue the way they are, TI will have to introduce some sort of ban or points deduction for people who are repeat offenders. It's sad that they can't be proactive and have already upped their game after last year instead of having to react to a huge number of complaints half way through a season!

peter kern

and you are totally allowed to disagree. and i agree with you to be honest but i think if you put yourself into the TI position give them a few weeks to demonstrate if it is only a PR stunt or a start in the right direction.

you see the propblem from one angle, TI has to see the problem from more angles. as people will complain if they dont get an entry
and if there is too many people.

when they give prenalties people will complaiin and if they dont give penalties people will complain. they then will say the draft buster dont understand their job and others will say they is not enough of them. and i have not seen a that many people wanting to becom draft marshalls....( i would suggest do become one and then you can really complain ) and i think you need to consider this that those things dont happen from one day to the next

Green&Red wrote: »

Peter, I'd disagree with you on it being a step in the right direction.
For me the issue at the minute is not the length of the penalty, people are drafting because they are not being penalised for it, they dont need to worry whether its one minute or ten minutes the penalty is.
A few races with zero tolerance of drafting would go along way towards solving the problem. stop a big pelathon and everyone off for a minute or two minutes. But actually enforcing the rules rather than making the rules more punative but still not enforcing them.


On a side note I think all penalties should be done holding your bike above shoulder height, it would be a much greater incentive

P2C

Totally agree with increased penalties and any effort to tackle drafting. Its a thank less task being a referee/motorbike marshal. I really do think athletes need to learn how to use pace-lines correctly and correct etiquette would go a long way to avoiding some issues. Lots of people deserve penalties and they don't get them and some people get penalties that don't deserve them. Its the same in lots of sports.

Personally I am going to stop racing NS and sprints as its an impossible task to bike through the field in a NS race particularly at my level of swimming approx 11- 11:30 minute swimmer. You always have a crew that can latch on and pace of you particularly on flatter courses. The levels are rising each year and lots of athletes have invested in training and equipment and are simply getting faster and closer together. With the exception of a half dozen bikers. The fast swimmers think these guys are all riding in peletons. I would recommend some of them to try and bike and drop 10 competitors of a similar level. Its not easy and is bloody frustrating.

Query. Can TI set their own rules re same? I thought they were signed up to the ITU rules?. I only see one flaw and its about being reactionary to a well documented problem in the middle of the season. The goalposts have now changed. The people who picked up penalties in earlier races have gained an advantage. They would of had lower time penalties implemented. Anyone from last weekend will have longer penalties implemented. This will have an affect on overall positioning and on the points assigned for the NS.

Therefore if CerveloP2C picks up a penalty in Kilkee and lost 4 points and green and red picks up a penalty in Caroline Kearney losing 9 points. Cervelo P2C wins the overall national series by 1 point. Does that not hand a unfair advantage. I am a stickler for consistency and unfortunately there are lots of cases of inconsistency in the rules at NS and age group level.

Podge83

P2C wrote: »

Totally agree with increased penalties and any effort to tackle drafting. Its a thank less task being a referee/motorbike marshal. I really do think athletes need to learn how to use pace-lines correctly and correct etiquette would go a long way to avoiding some issues. Lots of people deserve penalties and they don't get them and some people get penalties that don't deserve them. Its the same in lots of sports.

Personally I am going to stop racing NS and sprints as its an impossible task to bike through the field in a NS race particularly at my level of swimming approx 11- 11:30 minute swimmer. You always have a crew that can latch on and pace of you particularly on flatter courses. The levels are rising each year and lots of athletes have invested in training and equipment and are simply getting faster and closer together. With the exception of a half dozen bikers. The fast swimmers think these guys are all riding in peletons. I would recommend some of them to try and bike and drop 10 competitors of a similar level. Its not easy and is bloody frustrating.

Query. Can TI set their own rules re same? I thought they were signed up to the ITU rules?. I only see one flaw and its about being reactionary to a well documented problem in the middle of the season. The goalposts have now changed. The people who picked up penalties in earlier races have gained an advantage. They would of had lower time penalties implemented. Anyone from last weekend will have longer penalties implemented. This will have an affect on overall positioning and on the points assigned for the NS.

Therefore if CerveloP2C picks up a penalty in Kilkee and lost 4 points and green and red picks up a penalty in Caroline Kearney losing 9 points. Cervelo P2C wins the overall national series by 1 point. Does that not hand a unfair advantage. I am a stickler for consistency and unfortunately there are lots of cases of inconsistency in the rules at NS and age group level.

The problem with what you are saying is that the other 10 competitors to which you refer are probably trying to do the same as you (and probably cursing you as well as the others).

BTH

P2C wrote: »

Therefore if CerveloP2C picks up a penalty in Kilkee and lost 4 points and green and red picks up a penalty in Caroline Kearney losing 9 points. Cervelo P2C wins the overall national series by 1 point. Does that not hand a unfair advantage. I am a stickler for consistency and unfortunately there are lots of cases of inconsistency in the rules at NS and age group level.

No, the person who doesn't cheat will win as they dont get any penalties.

Kurt Godel

From what I saw today at the Caroline Kearney Memorial Tri, the harsher penalties are producing immediate results. There was much less trains evident (I get to see them usually as a decent swimmer but crap cyclist;)), and more importantly when a train did go by, it wasn't as blatant with the straight-line wheel-sucking; a train was a wider box, and broke up soon enough. Congestion got treated as congestion, rather than an opportunity to draft. The penalty box was enforced too. Positive steps.

Ceepo

Kurt Godel wrote: »

From what I saw today at the Caroline Kearney Memorial Tri, the harsher penalties are producing immediate results. There was much less trains evident (I get to see them usually as a decent swimmer but crap cyclist;)), and more importantly when a train did go by, it wasn't as blatant with the straight-line wheel-sucking; a train was a wider box, and broke up soon enough. Congestion got treated as congestion, rather than an opportunity to draft. The penalty box was enforced too. Positive steps.

That's great to hear. But from what I heard from that race there was still drafting going on. Maybe to a lesser extent. Might be hard to eradicate fully but it's good to see some of the steps are working to some degree

mirrormatrix

Kurt Godel wrote: »

From what I saw today at the Caroline Kearney Memorial Tri, the harsher penalties are producing immediate results. There was much less trains evident (I get to see them usually as a decent swimmer but crap cyclist;)), and more importantly when a train did go by, it wasn't as blatant with the straight-line wheel-sucking; a train was a wider box, and broke up soon enough. Congestion got treated as congestion, rather than an opportunity to draft. The penalty box was enforced too. Positive steps.

I'd agree with this to some extent. I think though that the reduction in drafting was also due to the smaller wave sizes. I also think that having all of the non-vet men in wave 1 helped to reduce congestion.

Think I only saw one person in the penalty box, so I'm not sure if there were that many cards handed out. The addition of the GoPros for the bike marshalls is also a really strong tool.