Reality of Dun Laoghaire Library

Chinasea

crushproof wrote: »

They do? I've lived in Manchester, London and Edinburgh and I have library card in each city. Not once have I had the chance to set foot in a lending library on a Sunday, so please stop attempting to justify Sunday opening hours by saying "Oh they do it UK" without any facts to back that statement up.
[/URL]

For starters:
http://www.camden.gov.uk/ccm/content/contacts/council-contacts/libraries/contact-swiss-cottage-library/

http://www.bl.uk/aboutus/quickinfo/loc/stp/opening/index.html

Not sure really what is behind or what the staunch resistance against opening Sundays is.................................

Tabnabs

Chinasea wrote: »

For starters:

http://www.bl.uk/aboutus/quickinfo/loc/stp/opening/index.html

Not much point turning up on a Sunday there, the building may be open, but the reading room is shut...

Larbre34

Chinasea wrote: »

For starters:
http://www.camden.gov.uk/ccm/content/contacts/council-contacts/libraries/contact-swiss-cottage-library/

http://www.bl.uk/aboutus/quickinfo/loc/stp/opening/index.html

Not sure really what is behind or what the staunch resistance against opening Sundays is.................................

Do you mean by posters here or apparently by staff? I would imagine the unions wont have a bar of it without sunday pay etc, if at all.

RainyDay

Chinasea wrote: »

I think you are missing my point, and your response is obvious. If I had free time I would gladly volunteer, as would many others.

No, I didn't miss the point, I gave a smart-ass answer to your suggestion. Public services should NOT be based on volunteers. If the service is worth doing, it's worth doing well, and paying staff a fair wage for their work.

Opening an extra day requires extra staff and extra funding.

wally79 wrote: »

So if the library closed on Monday instead of Sunday it wouldn't make a difference to the groups you mention. They would still have access to the library 6 days a week.

It would increase the potential usage as people in Monday to Friday employment would now have access to the library for 2 full days a week instead of one.

As others have pointed out 'people in M-F employment' may well not be in the majority for the library customer base. And if they are, they can fairly easily drop in on their way home on one of the late opening evenings. Is there really a problem here that needs fixing?

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

This is the arrangement for most museums and galleries around Europe.

Surprised they can't work something like this into libraries.

These are very different kinds of institutions, which are heavily aimed at the tourist market.

Chinasea wrote: »

Not sure really what is behind or what the staunch resistance against opening Sundays is.................................

You might have missed my earlier post that explained it fairly well.

Larbre34 wrote: »

Do you mean by posters here or apparently by staff? I would imagine the unions wont have a bar of it without sunday pay etc, if at all.

Would you work switch from having Sundays off to working on Sundays without any premium? It's not just a matter of Sunday pay. It's a matter of extra resources required for an extra day's opening.

josip

RainyDay wrote: »

Would you work switch from having Sundays off to working on Sundays without any premium? It's not just a matter of Sunday pay. It's a matter of extra resources required for an extra day's opening.

In the last 10 years, I, my wife, my brother and my sister-in-law have had to start working Saturdays/Sundays.
Some of us occasionally, some of us rostered regularly.
None of us got any extra pay.
We all managed to keep our jobs.

Alias G

josip wrote: »

In the last 10 years, I, my wife, my brother and my sister-in-law have had to start working Saturdays/Sundays.
Some of us occasionally, some of us rostered regularly.
None of us got any extra pay.
We all managed to keep our jobs.

More fool you. Employees are entitled to a reasonable pay increase for working on a Sunday.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/hours_of_work/working_week.html

Larbre34

RainyDay wrote: »

Would you work switch from having Sundays off to working on Sundays without any premium? It's not just a matter of Sunday pay. It's a matter of extra resources required for an extra day's opening.

No absolutely I wouldn't. My mention of the unions is for the reason that I presume they are wary of any possible attempts to 'yellow pack' extended staffing hours with job-bridge or gateway jobs, if those hours were to be pushed.

Tragedy

Alias G wrote: »

I would have thought that roughly 13 hours per week was ample time to visit a library. What exactly do you plan on doing there?

Because when people finish work, they have nothing else to do.

Are you being facetious or are you really that idiotic?

Tragedy

Alias G wrote: »

More fool you. Employees are entitled to a reasonable pay increase for working on a Sunday.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/hours_of_work/working_week.html

If you do Sunday work your entitlement to extra pay may be agreed between you and your employer. Under the Organisation of Working Time Act, if there is no agreement about your pay, your employer must give you one or more of the following for Sunday working:

Further

What is reasonable depends on all the circumstances. It is a matter for negotiation between you and your employer

More fool you for not reading the link you posted.

RainyDay

Tragedy wrote: »

Because when people finish work, they have nothing else to do.

Are you being facetious or are you really that idiotic?

Sorry, but are you suggesting that public services like the Library have to turn themselves on their heads and jump through hoops because you will only bother your arse going there when you have nothing else to do?

If the library isn't that important to you, don't expect you to be that important to them.

josip

It's recognised in the library service that there is a benefit to the community to facilitate physical, not just virtual access, outside the current time range.
eg. http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/library/developments/Public_Library_Strategy_2013-2017_draft_for_public_consultation.pdf

I'm aware of at least one county library service that is investigating physical 24/7 access to a couple of trial branches.

Bits_n_Bobs

RainyDay wrote: »

If the library isn't that important to you, don't expect you to be that important to them.

A perfect and beautifully succinct summation of DLR's CoCo attitude to it's inmates, or 'citizens' as they are occasionally referred to...

Alias G

Tragedy wrote: »

Because when people finish work, they have nothing else to do.

Are you being facetious or are you really that idiotic?

How am I being facetious? 13 hours per week is literally loads of time with which to accommodate a visit to the library. How you prioritise your social hours is your business but your not the only one with a hectic schedule. Its a rather pathetic excuse.

Alias G

Tragedy wrote: »

Further


More fool you for not reading the link you posted.

Which is why I qualified the statement with the term "reasonable". Which is the exact phraseology used in the document. Indeed the exact phrase you quoted. In practicality, if you expect qualified library staff to work a flat rate on a Sunday, you are not living in the real world. The expectation of a reasonable wage increase for working unsocial hours may not be legislated for but is still recognised and implemented across most professions. Sounds like you are just being facetious TBH.

RainyDay

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

A perfect and beautifully succinct summation of DLR's CoCo attitude to it's inmates, or 'citizens' as they are occasionally referred to...

Thanks for the compliment. It is indeed a sound policy. Presumably, you'd prefer to see taxes wasted on providing services that will only be used when people 'have nothing else to do'.

Bits_n_Bobs

RainyDay wrote: »

Thanks for the compliment. It is indeed a sound policy. Presumably, you'd prefer to see taxes wasted on providing services that will only be used when people 'have nothing else to do'.

Outstanding attitude towards customers. If customerd can't be arsed prioritising reading books in a €36m library they paid for, then to hell with them. Ungrateful sods with their not-reading things to do....

After all if it's closed they can always stand outside beside the junkies, closed shops etc and wonder at the majesty of the grandiose building.

gladrags

What is the consensus on the facilities.?

From a library perspective.

Larbre34

gladrags wrote: »

What is the consensus on the facilities.?

From a library perspective.

Not many books, as libraries go.

Too much noise, as libraries go.

Good I.T., pity to see it hogged by people playing games online.

As for the ancillary facilities, like meeting rooms, performances spaces, and cafés, they are a duplication of others available in the town.

josip

gladrags wrote: »

What is the consensus on the facilities.?

From a library perspective.

It's new, shiny and smells nice.
Staff were helpful while I was there.
Ceilings are ridiculously high.
They could be half as high and still feel vaulty and airy. (Feeling of space can be important in a library)

A poster previously mentioned the height as being necessary in providing a vantage viewpoint over the harbour. Maybe I missed something, but there are 4? seats on the top floor that have a view of the harbour. And these seem to be only halfway up the overall building. So they could have provided the same viewpoint for those 4 lucky people with a building half as high.

Has anyone been over at the junction of Marine Parade and Sandycove Avenue and seen what they've done to our town? Aaaaghhh! Sorry gladrags, but it'll never be more than a vanity project masquerading as a library to me.

gladrags

josip wrote: »

It's new, shiny and smells nice.
Staff were helpful while I was there.
Ceilings are ridiculously high.
They could be half as high and still feel vaulty and airy. (Feeling of space can be important in a library)

A poster previously mentioned the height as being necessary in providing a vantage viewpoint over the harbour. Maybe I missed something, but there are 4? seats on the top floor that have a view of the harbour. And these seem to be only halfway up the overall building. So they could have provided the same viewpoint for those 4 lucky people with a building half as high.

Has anyone been over at the junction of Marine Parade and Sandycove Avenue and seen what they've done to our town? Aaaaghhh! Sorry gladrags, but it'll never be more than a vanity project masquerading as a library to me.

Thanks

Will be heading out there this saturday,will have a look,if it opens on saturday,which I assume it is.

Rabo Karabekian

Any opening on Sundays should absolutely not be worked by volunteers. Devalues the work the librarians do, both in the facility in question and libraries in general. But I'm assuming that in order to extend the opening hours of this place, they will need to hire new people? Would there be an issue with having the new workers as working Sundays while the 'older' staff didn't?

I think shifting the library closing day to Monday is a good idea, but difficult to see current workers opting for this plan (I can see their point, btw).

In a general sense, I think this particular library is seen as a community focus point in addition to a library. Not sure if it works, especially if they're closed on Sundays.

Tragedy

Alias G wrote: »

Which is why I qualified the statement with the term "reasonable". Which is the exact phraseology used in the document. Indeed the exact phrase you quoted. In practicality, if you expect qualified library staff to work a flat rate on a Sunday, you are not living in the real world. The expectation of a reasonable wage increase for working unsocial hours may not be legislated for but is still recognised and implemented across most professions. Sounds like you are just being facetious TBH.

You said entitled.

They are not entitled.

Unfortunately, DLR Library can't teach you to accept when you make an incorrect statement, rather than digging in your heels.

I do like how you changed entitled to 'expected', as if no-one would notice.

And no, 13 hours is not 'loads' of time. People do other things beside work. Necessary things. Things that will also clash with those 13 hours. You made a really, really childish and idiotic assumption (seems to be a habit of yours) that people have nothing to do but go to a library when not working and that thus, 13 hours out of the 57 opening hours for the people who are funding the library, is eminently reasonable and not at all absurd.

The cognitive dissonance of you and RainyDay would be amusing, were it not so sad.

Alias G

Tragedy wrote: »

You said entitled.

They are not entitled.

Unfortunately, DLR Library can't teach you to accept when you make an incorrect statement, rather than digging in your heels.

I do like how you changed entitled to 'expected', as if no-one would notice.

And no, 13 hours is not 'loads' of time. People do other things beside work. Necessary things. Things that will also clash with those 13 hours. You made a really, really childish and idiotic assumption (seems to be a habit of yours) that people have nothing to do but go to a library when not working and that thus, 13 hours out of the 57 opening hours for the people who are funding the library, is eminently reasonable and not at all absurd.

The cognitive dissonance of you and RainyDay would be amusing, were it not so sad.

It was not an incorrect statement -

if there is no agreement about your pay, your employer must give you one or more of the following for Sunday working:

A reasonable allowance
A reasonable pay increase
Reasonable paid time off work

Maybe you should have read text yourself before spouting off. citizensinformation.ie is a statutory body. It doesn't exist to provide information of no relevance to the public. Its job is the exact opposite. Now I am not opposed to a Sunday opening per se - I'm just not sure if it is a likely development. I like how you think you can make your point by arguing semantics rather than any actual common sense. As if no-one would notice. And you are also the only one here resorting to personnel digs such as 'childish' and 'idiotic' as you did in a post previous. You must have a fine opinion of yourself throwing insults around at other people. For the record, I work full time, am part time in college, play/train with my local football team and have a young family and yet I have still found myself in the new library on a dozen occasions. I am sure you are not the only one with social and domestic duties that take up your time. Others are capable of balancing their life - I guess excuses come easier for you.

Schadenfreudia

Even Halfords in Carrickmines pay double time to their non-management staff, including student part-time staff, to work Sundays.

So I assume that's not uncommon in the retail sector and I guess we'd expect DL to treat their staff better than Dunnes Stores do.

Given the investment in the magnificent facility that the library is, it can't be a huge issue for the Council to open it on Sunday's with the normal staff?

zagmund

Larbre34 wrote: »

Not many books, as libraries go.

Too much noise, as libraries go.

Good I.T., pity to see it hogged by people playing games online.

As for the ancillary facilities, like meeting rooms, performances spaces, and cafés, they are a duplication of others available in the town.

I've been in the library a couple of times now and while I like it as a "space" (yes, I've been watching too many Grand Designs), I think as a library it doesn't work just yet for a casual user.

Here's a couple of observations. As with Blackrock library, the perception I get is that most of the shelves aren't quite stocked. I'm not sure what the story is here. There have been mentions of a cafe here several times - I've seen no sign of it at all, so the signposting is lacking. There are computers *everywhere* and this is generally a good thing, but you've no idea how frustrating it is to have to walk up to 10, 15, 20 different computers and find out that none of them are usable for searching the catalogue. Catalogues are a pretty basic resource in a library. I eventually found one (after asking at the desk) under the stairs. My eyesight is pretty good, but when standing at the top of the stairs looking back over the main desk/book area, I cannot read a single sign on any of the shelves. Gardening? . . . . could be right at the end of the room, could be right beside me, could be half way down, and there's no way to find out other than walking up to every single shelf and reading. Looking for a good book on Algebra . . . no idea where the 512 section is, or even which floor it's on. A layout plan would be good.

In short, the lack of a readily accessible catalog and the lack of layout signage means that every time I've walked in to the library I've ended up wandering around thinking lofty architectural thoughts, but not getting a lot out of the library in terms of actual information sources.

On the plus side, I did come across this book as one of the recommended reads - http://www.amazon.co.uk/In-Europe-Travels-Through-Twentieth/dp/009951673X. It's a great collection of essays on various places in Europe throughout the 20th Century.

z

pm1977x

Due to other commitments I can only visit the library every 2nd Tuesday between 2am and 3am, as an obnoxious and entitled tax payer I presume, nay expect, that a full compliment of staff will be there to facilitate my visit with warm croissants, piping hot coffee and neck massages on tap...or maybe some people in this thread would care to 'volunteer' their services. :rolleyes:

markpb

pm1977x wrote: »

Due to other commitments I can only visit the library every 2nd Tuesday between 2am and 3am, as an obnoxious and entitled tax payer I presume, nay expect, that a full compliment of staff will be there to facilitate my visit with warm croissants, piping hot coffee and neck massages on tap...or maybe some people in this thread would care to 'volunteer' their services. :rolleyes:

Well that bit is certainly true. Other people are entitled to their opinions just as you are entitled to yours. Some people feel that the library would be more convenient if it opened on Sundays, who are you to suggest that they are wrong, obnoxious or entitled?

pm1977x

markpb wrote: »

Well that bit is certainly true. Other people are entitled to their opinions just as you are entitled to yours. Some people feel that the library would be more convenient if it opened on Sundays, who are you to suggest that they are wrong, obnoxious or entitled?

I know you are but what am I? (Is this the game we're playing - I too can bold things, I'm super clever like that!)

pm1977x

A quick Google tells me that the library was mostly funded by development levies, not my hard-earned tax monies, so I withdraw my request for it to open between 1am and 2am every 2nd Tuesday, my bad.

Schadenfreudia

pm1977x wrote: »

A quick Google tells me that the library was mostly funded by development levies, not my hard-earned tax monies, so I withdraw my request for it to open between 1am and 2am every 2nd Tuesday, my bad.

I'm glad the banks we bailed out with borrowed money we now paying heavy taxes to repay were the ones who funded the library (via the bankrupt developers) - and not us entitled taxpayers.


However I still think this could be opened on Sunday's while paying the staff appropriately!

I have been persuaded by the argument that it would make more sense to close it on Mondays.