Messie Ronaldo comparisons v world cup greats

Idbatterim

So this is an oft discussed topic, on tv in the media etc. I was born in 84, so cant remember the greats like Pele, Maradonna. Just took the below from wikipedia... When I hear about Messi and Ronaldo, they have achieved nothing on the international stage and when I see footage of the likes of Maradonna, Pele back in the day, they are like one man teams or armies which neither of the aforementioned two even come close to in my opinion...


Player Nationality Votes
1 Pelé Brazil 1705
2 Johan Cruyff Netherlands 1303
3 Franz Beckenbauer Germany 1228
4 Alfredo Di Stéfano Argentina 1215
5 Diego Maradona Argentina 1214
6 Ferenc Puskás Hungary / Spain810
7 Michel Platini France 722
8 Garrincha Brazil 624
9 Eusébio Portugal 544
10 Bobby Charlton England 508
11 Stanley Matthews England 368
12 Marco van Basten Netherlands 315
13 Gerd Müller Germany 310
14 Zico Brazil 207
15 Lothar Matthäus Germany 202

yohan the great

Idbatterim wrote: »

So this is an oft discussed topic, on tv in the media etc. I was born in 84, so cant remember the greats like Pele, Maradonna. Just took the below from wikipedia... When I hear about Messi and Ronaldo, they have achieved nothing on the international stage and when I see footage of the likes of Maradonna, Pele back in the day, they are like one man teams or armies which neither of the aforementioned two even come close to in my opinion...


Player Nationality Votes
1 Pelé Brazil 1705
2 Johan Cruyff Netherlands 1303
3 Franz Beckenbauer Germany 1228
4 Alfredo Di Stéfano Argentina 1215
5 Diego Maradona Argentina 1214
6 Ferenc Puskás Hungary / Spain810
7 Michel Platini France 722
8 Garrincha Brazil 624
9 Eusébio Portugal 544
10 Bobby Charlton England 508
11 Stanley Matthews England 368
12 Marco van Basten Netherlands 315
13 Gerd Müller Germany 310
14 Zico Brazil 207
15 Lothar Matthäus Germany 202

Messi has just brought Argentina into the last 16 of the world cup single handedly and Ronaldo has kept Portugal in the tournament almost single handedly

Tombo2001

Any of the 'greats' of international football are by and large recognised as such because of what they achieved in the international game.

There are a few exceptions, such as George Best (though I'd question how highly the typical Argentinean or Portuguese ranks George Best in the list of all time).

A good example is Gerd Muller - he won 3 European Cups in a row with Bayern Munich in the 1970s.....equal to anything Messi has achieved....but he was also top scorer when Germany won the world cup and thats what he is remembered for.

I dont think Messi can be ranked alongside Maradone unless he does it at the World Cup.

And if he does, and that will mean beating a pretty handy German team (imho) then he should be rated pretty highly.

Agueroooo

I dont buy into this Player X single handedly got their team through.
Yes they were the stand out player but its hyperbole crap imo.

International football has been watered down over the past couple of decades with the rise in money and exposure club/domestic football gets.

for me International football is not as strong as club football which ties into the question the OP was asking.

Yes Messi still needs 'to do it' at International level but its not as important, or significant as a couple of decades ago.

maximoose

I really don't care what they have achieved at international level - I think this argument is trotted out far too much, by older generations mostly in my experience, in an almost "Football was better in my day" kind of argument.

To say they are not part of the all time greats because they haven't done it at a world cup is just incredibly ignorant of their frankly ridiculous abilities which they've been delivering consistently year after year in their leagues and in the champions league (which I'd hold in higher esteem than the WC any day)

What is the poll you've quoted and where is it from btw?

Tombo2001

Agueroooo wrote: »

I dont buy into this Player X single handedly got their team through.
Yes they were the stand out player but its hyperbole crap imo.

International football has been watered down over the past couple of decades with the rise in money and exposure club/domestic football gets.

for me International football is not as strong as club football which ties into the question the OP was asking.

Yes Messi still needs 'to do it' at International level but its not as important, or significant as a couple of decades ago.

But it possibly never was, thats not the point.....if anything it contradicts the point.

Messi looks great playing for Barcelona, with Iniesta, Xavi and all these guys supplying ball to him.......you know what, I reckon Maradone would have looked pretty ace in that team to.

But not just that, Maradona was able to star in a fairly average team and almost single handedly win them a world cup.

If you want a more extreme example look at Ronaldo......fantastic for Real.....where has he been for Portugal?

Also, its not just about individual skills....its also about leadership. Zidane in 2006 was clearly inspirational for the likes of Henry, Ribery etc.

yohan the great

Agueroooo wrote: »

I dont buy into this Player X single handedly got their team through.
Yes they were the stand out player but its hyperbole crap imo.

International football has been watered down over the past couple of decades with the rise in money and exposure club/domestic football gets.

for me International football is not as strong as club football which ties into the question the OP was asking.

Yes Messi still needs 'to do it' at International level but its not as important, or significant as a couple of decades ago.

Every other Argentine player has played very poorly from what I've seen. And Portugal just don't have any other decent player available apart from Moutinho

PhlegmyMoses

The mistake here is that people think that success in international football denotes greatness. Playing in Europe and doing it against teams full of the very best players from each international side is where it is at these days.

Idbatterim

But not just that, Maradona was able to star in a fairly average team and almost single handedly win them a world cup.

thats the point I was making, these "super players" now dont appear to have anywhere near the impact they did in decades gone by, maybe its because the standard has narrowed so much. I mean look at the gap between the "top teams" and even ones deemed "average" at this world cup, the matches are nearly nothing matches at this stage, i.e. very little in them, where in years gone by, the so called lesser teams would be in damage limitation mode...

What is the poll you've quoted and where is it from btw?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_Player_of_the_Century

Tombo2001

Idbatterim wrote: »

thats the point I was making, these "super players" now dont appear to have anywhere near the impact they did in decades gone by, maybe its because the standard has narrowed so much. I mean look at the gap between the "top teams" and even ones deemed "average" at this world cup, the matches are nearly nothing matches at this stage, i.e. very little in them, where in years gone by, the so called lesser teams would be in damage limitation mode...

I wouldnt agree with that.

France got to the final in 2006 with what I'd have called an average enough team, but the difference being that Zidane was superb in some key knockout matches, particularly against Brazil.

I take your other point though, it was quite surprising the see the way Ghana took on Germany, or Costa Rica sorted out Italy.

There's been no team being tonked 3-0 or 4-0......not like Ireland at the last Euros ......

PhlegmyMoses

Idbatterim wrote: »

thats the point I was making, these "super players" now dont appear to have anywhere near the impact they did in decades gone by, maybe its because the standard has narrowed so much. I mean look at the gap between the "top teams" and even ones deemed "average" at this world cup, the matches are nearly nothing matches at this stage, i.e. very little in them, where in years gone by, the so called lesser teams would be in damage limitation mode...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_Player_of_the_Century

This happens every world cup. France were gash in 2010 and 2002 with fancied teams. Argentina were crap last time, so were Portugal. Ireland got to the last 16 in 2002 after drawing with Germany. Loads of other examples.

This World Cup is no different than others in that regard.

Cienciano

It's hard to judge players from different era's. Zero protection from the ref back in Pele's day, but the pace of the game was way, way down. Look at videos, even form the 70's, players are walking and just stopped with the ball into the opposition half.

Idbatterim wrote: »

So this is an oft discussed topic, on tv in the media etc. I was born in 84, so cant remember the greats like Pele, Maradonna. Just took the below from wikipedia... When I hear about Messi and Ronaldo, they have achieved nothing on the international stage and when I see footage of the likes of Maradonna, Pele back in the day, they are like one man teams or armies which neither of the aforementioned two even come close to in my opinion...

Hold on, Pele had these guys playing beside him in the 70's side:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T7JanWxINM

In 58 and 62 he had this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeYyx87NWrU

Pele will remind us that he won 3 world cups. He did. In 58 he started 4 games. In 62 he scored 1 goal. Garrincha and Didi were the star players at the time in those teams. In 1970 he scored 4 goals, Gerd Muller got 10 and his team mate Jarzinho (one of the best players of all time) got 7.
Obviously Pele was good, but a lot of shíte talked about him, and most of it comes from the man himself.

From all the videos I watched (I know, anyone looks good on youtube), the player I'd most like to see play today is Garrincha.

Tokarev

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I wouldnt agree with that.

France got to the final in 2006 with what I'd have called an average enough team, but the difference being that Zidane was superb in some key knockout matches, particularly against Brazil.

I take your other point though, it was quite surprising the see the way Ghana took on Germany, or Costa Rica sorted out Italy.

There's been no team being tonked 3-0 or 4-0......not like Ireland at the last Euros ......

Netherlands 5 Spain 1 ....says hello.

PhlegmyMoses

Cienciano wrote: »

It's hard to judge players from different era's. Zero protection from the ref back in Pele's day, but the pace of the game was way, way down. Look at videos, even form the 70's, players are walking and just stopped with the ball into the opposition half.

Hold on, Pele had these guys playing beside him in the 70's side:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T7JanWxINM

In 58 and 62 he had this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeYyx87NWrU

Pele will remind us that he won 3 world cups. He did. In 58 he started 4 games. In 62 he scored 1 goal. Garrincha and Didi were the star players at the time in those teams. In 1970 he scored 4 goals, Gerd Muller got 10 and his team mate Jarzinho (one of the best players of all time) got 7.
Obviously Pele was good, but a lot of shíte talked about him, and most of it comes from the man himself.

From all the videos I watched (I know, anyone looks good on youtube), the player I'd most like to see play today is Garrincha.

Pretty good ESPN documentary on Garrincha. Got the impresdion from the guys who saw him play that Pele was much better than him and that Garrincha was a bit of a mythical figure, whilst still being very good.

Diabhal Beag

Pishing that people get into big debates about Messi and Ronaldo as the best ever when they weren't around to see most of the players on OP's list.

Eusebio is the best ever btw.

ahnowbrowncow

Idbatterim wrote: »

So this is an oft discussed topic, on tv in the media etc. I was born in 84, so cant remember the greats like Pele, Maradonna. Just took the below from wikipedia... When I hear about Messi and Ronaldo, they have achieved nothing on the international stage and when I see footage of the likes of Maradonna, Pele back in the day, they are like one man teams or armies which neither of the aforementioned two even come close to in my opinion...


Player Nationality Votes
1 Pelé Brazil 1705
2 Johan Cruyff Netherlands 1303
3 Franz Beckenbauer Germany 1228
4 Alfredo Di Stéfano Argentina 1215
5 Diego Maradona Argentina 1214
6 Ferenc Puskás Hungary / Spain810
7 Michel Platini France 722
8 Garrincha Brazil 624
9 Eusébio Portugal 544
10 Bobby Charlton England 508
11 Stanley Matthews England 368
12 Marco van Basten Netherlands 315
13 Gerd Müller Germany 310
14 Zico Brazil 207
15 Lothar Matthäus Germany 202

Alfredo Di Stéfano never even played in a world cup and had a total of 41 caps between 3 different countries, hardly an international or world cup great.

losthorizon

Having watched Socrates who was head and shoulders above Messi or Ronaldo cant believe hes not on that list.