Ironman Frankfurt 2014

68 lost souls

MojoMaker wrote: »

Very sad and very worrying. Drank loads and loads of water but didn't watch his salt intake via his drinks....not being smart but I doubt he was the only one. The other article posted as a comment from the 29-time IM athlete was equally worrying, from the other perspective - drinking too much.

Indeed it really shows the importance of correct hydration and not just water. I was talking just recently to someone about adding salt to water during long events and their response was "but doesn't salt dehydrate you more?" Its genuinely how a lot of people think.

tunney

MojoMaker wrote: »

Very sad and very worrying. Drank loads and loads of water but didn't watch his salt intake via his drinks....not being smart but I doubt he was the only one. The other article posted as a comment from the 29-time IM athlete was equally worrying, from the other perspective - drinking too much.

Nope. You'd have died too with this approach. Its not too little salt that kills, its too much fluids - there is a difference

shotgunmcos

Hyponatremia - some articles.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-drinking-too-much-water-can-kill/

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hyponatremia/basics/definition/con-20031445

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/242166-overview

http://www.usatriathlon.org/about-multisport/multisport-zone/fuel-station/articles/hyponatremia-in-endurance-athletes-080210.aspx

ToTriOrNot

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Hyponatremia - some articles.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-drinking-too-much-water-can-kill/

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hyponatremia/basics/definition/con-20031445

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/242166-overview

http://www.usatriathlon.org/about-multisport/multisport-zone/fuel-station/articles/hyponatremia-in-endurance-athletes-080210.aspx

Thanks for those links Mike. So, what's the best option, drink to thrist or on schedule? I can't remember where, but I read somewhere that thirst is a sign of being dehydrated, so drinking to thirst is often too late? Is that right? I won't be doing any long events, but having done a couple of long swims recently, and having suffered from dehydration on one of them due to poor hydration previous to the event I would like to be prepared!! It's a minefied of information out there. I am always thirsty and have to have water with me at all times...i do worry about diabetes as I am high risk having suffered gestational diabetes and being insulin dependant on my last pregnancy, and also due to thyroid issues!! when I go on the bike, I tend to drink two big bottles, and sometimes need to refill when we stop for coffee...always notice my sweat is very salty when I go home and have a shower!!!!

RacoonQueen

I always think people drink way more than they need. I'd rarely even drink a full 750ml bottle on a long spin in Ireland (unless it's actually hot out) sometimes I'd literally just take a sip or two. See other people milling liquids in on a cool day.

tunney

ToTriOrNot wrote: »

Thanks for those links Mike. So, what's the best option, drink to thrist or on schedule? I can't remember where, but I read somewhere that when thirst is a sing of being dehydrated, so drinking to thirst is often too late? Is that right?

A well known fact that thirst is too late. Doesn't stop it being wrong, but its a well known fact

ToTriOrNot wrote: »

I won't be doing any long events, but having done a couple of long swims recently, and having suffered from dehydration on one of them due to poor hydration previous to the event I would like to be prepared!! It's a minefied of information out there. I am always thirsty and have to have water with me at all times...i do worry about diabetes as I am high risk having suffered gestational diabetes and being insulin dependant on my last pregnancy, and also due to thyroid issues!! when I go on the bike, I tend to drink two big bottles, and sometimes need to refill when we stop for coffee...always notice my sweat is very salty when I go home and have a shower!!!!

The fitter you are the less you need to drink and eat. I remember being in Cyprus with an ex pro tour rider leading the group. Scorching weather and 4 hours. He had 500ml of water and nothing to eat....

tunney

Okay Noakes has gone off the deep end on the high fat diets but..........


http://www.outsideonline.com/1900801/tim-noakes-serious-problem-overhydration-endurance-sports

ToTriOrNot

tunney wrote: »

A well known fact that thirst is too late. Doesn't stop it being wrong, but its a well known fact

Should that be sarcastic mode on, hence pink.

The fitter you are the less you need to drink and eat. I remember being in Cyprus with an ex pro tour rider leading the group. Scorching weather and 4 hours. He had 500ml of water and nothing to eat....

Cheers for that...off I go to get fitter, and drinking and eating less!!!

RacoonQueen

tunney wrote: »

The fitter you are the less you need to drink and eat. I remember being in Cyprus with an ex pro tour rider leading the group. Scorching weather and 4 hours. He had 500ml of water and nothing to eat....

Most people eat way too much on a training spin too...not sure if it's fitness related or people just misinterpreting what they read

tunney

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Most people eat way too much on a training spin too...not sure if it's fitness related or people just misinterpreting what they read

Fat is friend not foe

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

Okay Noakes has gone off the deep end on the high fat diets but..........


http://www.outsideonline.com/1900801/tim-noakes-serious-problem-overhydration-endurance-sports

Waterlogged is a great read, just doesn't need to be as long as the bible to get the point across.

peter kern

This is not quite true In this case it was more pro going out with freds ,likely falling asleep at the pace
What is more true that fitter people lose less minerals when they sweet .

tunney wrote: »

A well known fact that thirst is too late. Doesn't stop it being wrong, but its a well known fact



The fitter you are the less you need to drink and eat. I remember being in Cyprus with an ex pro tour rider leading the group. Scorching weather and 4 hours. He had 500ml of water and nothing to eat....

MojoMaker

Not having done an IM I wonder what, if any, measures WTC takes to really hammer home this electrolyte-balanced safe hydration message at pre-race comms, race briefings etc? A fatality doesn't do a lot for the marketing of an event I guess, I assumed the company would really be pushing a hardline safety agenda, particularly at known 'hot' races like Frankfurt.

RacoonQueen

MojoMaker wrote: »

Not having done an IM I wonder what, if any, measures WTC takes to really hammer home this electrolyte-balanced safe hydration message at pre-race comms, race briefings etc? A fatality doesn't do a lot for the marketing of an event I guess, I assumed the company would really be pushing a hardline safety agenda, particularly at known 'hot' races like Frankfurt.

Is it not the athletes responsibilty to ensure they're correctly hydrated and have all the tools they may need?

peter kern

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Is it not the athletes responsibilty to ensure they're correctly hydrated and have all the tools they may need?

the reality is that likely 50% of ironman atheltes likely cant even change a puncture if you know what i mean.
I am not saying you are wrong .

and yes mojo they realy tried to hammer it in in frankfurt.

MojoMaker

Good to hear, so maybe this information fell on deaf ears in the case of the Australian chap who died.

Of course it's the athlete's responsibility ultimately but I would like to think that WTC is pretty proactive in this area for those getting caught up in race day fever (literally).

I'm not sure the article makes it clear whether the hyponatraemic state was a result of a failure to replace lost sodium through sweat, or as a result of over-hydration thereby diluting the sodium levels in the blood? Perhaps a bit of both?

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

peter kern wrote: »

the reality is that likely 50% of ironman atheltes likely cant even change a puncture if you know what i mean.
I am not saying you are wrong .

and yes mojo they realy tried to hammer it in in frankfurt.

It was not the case last year when i raced there and the conditions were pretty similar to this years event, unless they have changed and started to focus in on this at the athletes briefings.

sconhome

MojoMaker wrote: »

Good to hear, so maybe this information fell on deaf ears in the case of the Australian chap who died.

Of course it's the athlete's responsibility ultimately but I would like to think that WTC is pretty proactive in this area for those getting caught up in race day fever (literally).

I'm not sure the article makes it clear whether the hyponatraemic state was a result of a failure to replace lost sodium through sweat, or as a result of over-hydration thereby diluting the sodium levels in the blood? Perhaps a bit of both?

From what reading I did of Noakes book the body is very clever at managing the salt balance. The biggest cause is over hydration full stop. It makes a small difference if you are hydrating with an electrolyte but in general it seems to be the intake volume of water is far in excess of what the body can excrete in sweat or pee causing the problems.

MojoMaker

Sounds a bit hit and miss, do you just rely on thirst or should any attempt be made to suss this out before the race and have a fair idea your hydration requirements based on 20C, 30C, or 40C etc? When I say that I am making a large assumption that air temp and body temp) is a major variable in this equation - may or may not be correct?

RQ - did you just go on feel in Austria or did you have hydration planned beforehand etc?

sconhome

MojoMaker wrote: »

Sounds a bit hit and miss, do you just rely on thirst

Personally at this stage I drink to thirst or sip small mouthfuls of dilute carb / electrolyte drink at infrequent intervals, generally to thirst though.

Here's some of the Noakes book: http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/excerpts/thirst-as-a-signal-for-fluid-intake

He makes an interesting point on the culture of exercise and identifies the point at which the general advice changed:

Only after the introduction of frequent (every 1.6 km) drinking stations in 1981 did it become increasingly necessary to provide medical care at the finish of that and other marathon and ultramarathon races to treat the growing proportion of collapsed runners seeking medical care for “dehydration” and “heat illness.”

The most likely reason that treatment was necessary was the changing nature of the runners entering marathon and ultramarathon races. Before the running boom that began after 1976, only those who were reasonably trained would ever consider entering those races. But the culture became very different thereafter. The new generation of runners was not told to train more to ensure that they did not suffer harm during those races.
Instead they were advised to drink more.

At a recent event I was involved in organising I received some abuse over the lack of a water stop on the course.

It was a 5k with water at the finish. :rolleyes:

zico10

Meanwhile in other news 3,063 who also started the race didn't die. It's important to keep things in perspective.

peter kern

zico10 wrote: »

Meanwhile in other news 3,063 who also started the race didn't die. It's important to keep things in perspective.

very true
but race had a a dns dnf rate of 32 % which is very high ( i think 24 the year before and 18% the year before . so i do not think the topic dosnt deserve consideration. as the heat certainly does affect athletes.

RacoonQueen

MojoMaker wrote: »

RQ - did you just go on feel in Austria or did you have hydration planned beforehand etc?

I had hydration planned. Hydration was for calories as much as it was for fuel for me.
Though our day wasn't as warm as Frankfurt so wouldn't have had the same worries with salt/electrolytes but I carried salt tablets on bike and run.

zico10

peter kern wrote: »

very true
but race had a a dns dnf rate of 32 % which is very high ( i think 24 the year before and 18% the year before . so i do not think the topic dosnt deserve consideration. as the heat certainly does affect athletes.

I know nothing of the individual who sadly died, and I'm not commenting on that. But out of that 32%, how many do you think had no business registering in the first place?

Ironman are pedalling the mantra that 'anything is possible'. With this being rehashed again and again, of course they're going to get people taking to the startline who haven't adequately prepared for the distances.

I know Noakes is talking about runners, but AKW's post quoting him, puts it much better than I can. It's the exact same problem Ironman are getting themselves into. One death is terrible, but Ironman aren't going to change their modus operandi on account of it.

Ironman might very well start telling people to take salt tablets at their race briefings, and if they do the biggest winner will be the salt table producing company that goes into partnership with them. I've cycled and ran in some God awful heat and humidity and I've never once taken a salt tablet. I'm certain there are times when one would have been of benefit to me, but telling people they need them would be incredibly reckless and ill advised.

RacoonQueen

I don't understand how anyone can go into an ironman that ill prepared . Was quite shocked in Austria, watching the earlier waves go off, how many people were breaststroking!!!
And I thought I had no business being there....

Oryx

The novice element is going to only increase. Ironman is the next bucket list thing, (you could say I was that soldier but at least I stuck it out) and people are going into it with sometimes less than a year of training. Of course they arent ready for any extremes of weather, theyre barely ready for the race in perfect conditions.

Coincidentally, I flip over to fb and see this, which kinda makes my point for me.

Wanting some advice regarding tapering... I've never done an ironman, or any triathlon before actually, but have the full outlaw in just 15 days.

MojoMaker

Totally accept the point on the novice 'athlete' getting it wrong now and again, but when you hear a 29-time IM finisher getting it wrong it starts to raise the worry level slightly.

When I re-read the original article I'm not sure why but I got the impression the Australian chap who died wasn't a first-timer or an Ironman 'Fred'.

A fatality at an event is a pretty big deal, even for a heartless commercial organisation. I would be fairly confident that death is bad for business and can't imagine it would take much to really push a stronger H&S agenda given a large % of your field are going to be complete Freds in any given race*



* Except Dublin 70.3 obviously.

miller82

jesus thats really high DNF % at Frankfurt.

Am i right in thinking Frankfurt regularly hits over 33/34 degs for the race ?
I might start looking elsewhere.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

miller82 wrote: »

jesus thats really high DNF % at Frankfurt.

Am i right in thinking Frankfurt regularly hits over 33/34 degs for the race ?
I might start looking elsewhere.

I was there in 2013 (albeit for the bike only) and 2014, last year it was 37 degrees on the run, very uncomfortable heat to be running in.

tunney

miller82 wrote: »

jesus thats really high DNF % at Frankfurt.

Am i right in thinking Frankfurt regularly hits over 33/34 degs for the race ?
I might start looking elsewhere.

Done Frankfurt twice, Austria twice, Roth once.
Few halves around Europe.

If 30+ is an issue for you then you need to confined yourself to uk and Ireland.