fantasy cycling infrastructure upgrades

magicbastarder

inspired by the thread on the north quays plan, what *one* change would you make to make cycling easier in dublin (or wherever you find yourself)?

i'm sure there are quite a few holes which could be picked in it, but a cycle lane alongside the M50 would be useful - far fewer junctions than any other road to deal with, and it runs near or through multiple population centres and business parks/industrial estates, which would mean it would probably be useful for work commutes.
plus, it'd hopefully be easier to create a segregated cycle lane that would not have to interact with vehicular traffic (with the obvious exception of the west link bridge, which is a pinch point).

for example, i know a few people who live in blanchardstown/castleknock who work in or near parkwest/naas road, and it'd be much quicker than public transport, which iirc is a two-leg option if you want to do that.

idiottje

What is the ultimate goal, and who are you aiming it at? Existing cyclists, or to tempt new cyclists?

I do like the idea of an M50 type route, but I would like to see all the existing infrastructure improved, but for me, the biggest change would be in education of all road users, and enforcement of the existing legislation for all road users. Once we all share the road in a safe and effective manner, there is no need for additional infrastructure. Infrastructure would be a quicker "fix" for this though.

Lyaiera

Proper bike racks that are secure in as many places as possible and coffee stops wherever I need a coffee, cake or pee.

magicbastarder

idiottje wrote: »

What is the ultimate goal, and who are you aiming it at? Existing cyclists, or to tempt new cyclists?

either or.

idiottje

I would have to go with parking protected segregated lanes in the city centre similar to the new lanes in large parts of NYC, and making the majority of driving roads in the city centre (5km radius from O'Connell Bridge for example) one way only. The aim of cutting Co2 emissions in the city centre, and as previously posted in other forums, making newer cyclists, in particular new women cyclists feel safer.
As I am writing this, I am thinking that one thing is not the fix, because in order to make this work, other facilities such as P&R and increased Dublin Bike scheme bikes further out would be needed to make all this work. When is there a magic silver bullet when you need one?

franer1970

Giant fans down the sides of every street so there's always a tailwind.

idiottje

The promotion of Dublin Bikes for other purposes, like this one from NYC ....

http://www.businessinsider.com/citi-bikes-soulcycle-homeless-2013-6

Okay not a runner, and not appropriate .... I'll get me coat ....

Chips Lovell

Fixing the road.

dave_o_brien

Introduce a congestion charge.

gordongekko

I thought this thread was to do with the velogames fantasy cycling competition.

Brian?

Smooth tarmac in Wicklow.

rollingscone

20m wide one way cycle paths with direct tunnels I.e. no diversions or having to manoeuvre past exits along the N3 and N4.

The idea being to open up the suburbs and satellites fir mass commuter cycling.

PrzemoF

Designers responsible for cycle paths should to be cyclists. I seriously doubt that this is currently the case judging by the "quality" of some of the cycle ways in my area. Kerbs, jumping between both sided of the street, useless peeling off red macadam, lighting poles/signs in the centre of the path and so on. Anyway I'm happy to see more cycle paths in Cork area even if I'm mostly driving around the city

magicbastarder

rollingscone wrote: »

20m wide one way cycle paths

that's about the equivalent of six motorway lanes in width!

Jawgap

A bit of cleaning, repair and maintenance would go a long way.

Upgrading of the canal tow-paths around the country for use as cycle tracks.

Upgrading of abandoned rail lines for use as cycle tracks (starting with the remains of the Dundalk, Newry and Greenore Railway )

A proper, signed coast to coast cycle route

Completion of a the Sutton to Seapoint Cycle route

......and a two way cycle track on the North Quays

Ole Rodrigo

20 % reduction in motor traffic. OK 25%. People friendly speed limits in urban areas.

The speedy invention of teleportation to make road haulage and goods vehicles redundant .

Everything else will work itself out.

rollingscone

magicbastarder wrote: »

that's about the equivalent of six motorway lanes in width!

Dream big bro.

Also that's allowing for the inevitable illegal obstruction of same space.

Daroxtar

Maybe a 20 km long ramp rising up to about 1000 m with loads of long sweeping sections and a few tough +10% segments and a cafe at the top and a CRC / Wiggle outlet at the bottom. It is fantasy, right....

bogmanfan

Convert all bus lanes to cycle lanes. No buses. No taxis.

buffalo

Contra-flow cycle lanes on every one-way street.

HivemindXX

If we're fantasizing how about good quality cycle paths alongside every N road in the country. Good quality means not having to deal with high speed slip roads, and a painted on yield sign at every junction doesn't cut it. Underpass, overpass, magic traffic pixies...I don't care.

OldBean

A better education of the rules of the road for motorists, cyclists and an Gardaí alike.

But more realistically, some better routes through the city to get me out of, and around it. Nothing as depressing as mapping a route through the suburbs of Blanch, Tallaght or Finglas to get to the real stuff!

ROK ON

On wet days a roof with a giant suction machine to dry the road before you.

bambergbike

Transport:
really good design guidance, with teeth (legislation) to ensure:
1) that the manual has to be followed to the letter for all new projects (no compliance, no funding)
2) that old stuff has to be torn up and replaced with something better if it falls not just below the current minimum standards for new stuff, but also below the minimum standards for old stuff (which would be set lower, but high enough for only stuff which is genuinely useful to survive)

If any infra below minimum standards was basically illegal and had pretty much the same status as a building without planning permission, a lot of individual issues would eventually resolve work themselves out...kissing gates to ploughshares and all that

Sort out the quality control and we'll eventually get quality.

Tourism:
A child-friendly source-to-sea Shannon route that's all on cycle paths, or on country lanes where access is pretty much restricted to the odd tractor. With playgrounds and picnic tables and some bike ferries over the Shannon.
Cycle paths along river valleys in general - not just on railway alignments and canal towpaths where it's cheap to put them in. We build motorways across forests and fields and national monuments...

And for adult cyclists and older children who don't mind mixing with bit of motor traffic as long as the drivers are sane and the speed limits appropriate: a 3000 km bike route version of the Wild Atlantic Way, and an inland network of designated and signposted bike routes where drivers are alerted to the fact that they're on bike routes (preferably not all called "Route 1", "Route 2" and "Route 3", but something more exciting.) And signposted in both directions, not just one.

Raam

Team car for every spin.

tomasrojo

ror_74 wrote: »

People friendly speed limits in urban areas.

Related to that, the thing I'd like to see is a cheap version of the technology Google obviously already has to make cars "aware" of the speed limit of the road they're currently on, and then use it to make it impossible for the driver to exceed that speed.

Perhaps for emergency purposes (such as, I don't know, being chased by the Bilderberg Group?), you would be allowed to exceed speed limits three times a month.

tomasrojo

buffalo wrote: »

Contra-flow cycle lanes on every one-way street.

Especially Windsor Terrace at the west end of the Grand Canal cycleway.

tomasrojo

Now I think about it, Jon Ronson was pursued by agents of the Bilderberg Group at a very leisurely pace, so there's no reason for exemptions for investigative journalists peering into the secretive world of global power brokers.

magicbastarder

tomasrojo wrote: »

Related to that, the thing I'd like to see is a cheap version of the technology Google obviously already has to make cars "aware" of the speed limit of the road they're currently on, and then use it to make it impossible for the driver to exceed that speed.

that sounds potentially dangerous, in the context of overtaking; i don't think it's unreasonable to briefly exceed the speed limit while overtaking if it means a quicker overtaking manouvre. if you're 75% of the way through it, and someone pulls out onto the road ahead of you, it's probably much safer to floor the gas than to stand on the brakes.

buffalo

All triggered traffic lights should be sensitive to bikes, even lightweight carbon frames.

Lusk_Doyle

Travelators on all hills.

bambergbike

magicbastarder wrote: »

that sounds potentially dangerous, in the context of overtaking; i don't think it's unreasonable to briefly exceed the speed limit while overtaking if it means a quicker overtaking manouvre. if you're 75% of the way through it, and someone pulls out onto the road ahead of you, it's probably much safer to floor the gas than to stand on the brakes.

Discussion on that here and one user says:

"I used to have a speed limiter on a Mercedes A-class automatic. The limit was manually set (whereas GPS-control would be much better), but the behaviour on aporoaching the limit was superb. The car would just gradually lose acceleration up to the limit; it felt completely natural, not like hitting a limit. Furthermore, it was possible to override the limit by "flooring it" to get out of a dangerous situation.

I'd be very much in favour of seeing systems like this mandated, though it's possible they don't work as well on a manual gearbox. The idea of external warnings, like horn & flashing headlights, coming on in the override case would be excellent, and reinforces the idea that this override is a safety measure."

I like the idea of flashers. An annoying chime inside the car (like they have in an assortment of countries) might probably be better than the horn.

Also worth noting that France and Germany (possibly other places as well) have speed limits that vary according to the weather (fixed metal signs that say things like "100, 70 if the the road is wet" and electronic signs.

Germany also has a nice explict rule in its road traffic law on speed and visibility which was enacted after too many accidents were caused by drivers driving to the limit rather than to the conditions:

"If visibility is down to less than 50 m due to fog, snow or rain, drivers may not proceed faster than 50 km/h; a slower speed may be indicated. Drivers must be able to stop within the distance they can see to be clear. On narrow roads where oncoming vehicles could be endangered, drivers must be able to stop within half the distance they can see to be clear."

So you can be done for speeding for driving inappropriately at 60 km/h in a 100 km/h zone...

Deedsie

Stop putting manholes, cats eyes in cycle lanes... Prosecutions for people that use cycle lanes as car parks... Actual maintenance of existing cycle lanes where the surface has eroded away.
Prosecutions for cyclists that run red lights, cycle on footpaths, dangerous cycling etc... They make us all look bad with their carry on, time for them to be fined on the spot much more regularly

If it is government policy to encourage cycling throughout Ireland then the Gardaí need to be briefed that it is their roll to ensure the safety of all road users and any detection of reckless driving near a cyclist should be dealt with much more severely.

Tenzor07

Maybe not so much infrastructure as re-recreational infrastructure, but I would like to see the building of Mountain bike trails which people want to use on Coillte forestry lands...

bambergbike

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Maybe not so much infrastructure as re-recreational infrastructure, but I would like to see the building of Mountain bike trails which people want to use on Coillte forestry lands...

Recreational infrastructure is infrastructure too! The Wild Atlantic Way is essentially a project to create 3000 km of recreational infrastructure for car drivers - I don't see why mountain bike and other bike infrastructure shouldn't be conceived on the same scale and designed to keep people busy for weeks rather than just for the hours between breakfast and lunch on the first day of their holiday.

Tenzor07

bambergbike wrote: »

Recreational infrastructure is infrastructure too! The Wild Atlantic Way is essentially a project to create 3000 km of recreational infrastructure for car drivers - I don't see why mountain bike and other bike infrastructure shouldn't be conceived on the same scale and designed to keep people busy for weeks rather than just for the hours between breakfast and lunch on the first day of their holiday.

True, we can dream though...

Coillte have about as much interest in developing Mountain bike trails as they do in growing Coconut trees in Wicklow! :rolleyes:

tomasrojo

Thanks for that description of a speed delimiter, bambergbike. I'll remember that. Sounds as if everything is technically worked out already. Cost and political inertia might be a bigger obstacle.

magicbastarder

in an urban context, i would be curious to see if speed is an issue (as in cars going over the speed limit) in a lot of accidents; i would suspect (just a gut reaction) that most rush-hour accidents are due to driver/cyclist/etc. error, with the vehicles involved under the speed limit.

perhaps controlling red light behaviour could have a greater impact?

Thargor

Well designed high rise car parks in strategic places, reasonable priced with memberships etc maybe including free Dublin Bikes participation and Dublin Bike stations at their exits so people can park and cycle, then ban on-street parking basically everywhere else, the city would free itself up overnight and feel cleaner and less claustrophobic. Then star pedestrianizing and all the other improvements we should have had years ago.

Deedsie

I honestly think they should start putting up signs that traffic lights are also to be obeyed by cyclists. Some of the goons on the N11 every morning pay zero heed to traffic lights. Ridiculous to think of this needing to be done.

I also think a €250 on the spot fine should be implemented for cyclists on pedestrian streets or footpaths. The amount of people cycling down Grafton street would be sorted fairly quick if a nationwide ad campaign including a section on fines for cycling in pedestrian zones.

Peter T

magicbastarder wrote: »

that sounds potentially dangerous, in the context of overtaking; i don't think it's unreasonable to briefly exceed the speed limit while overtaking if it means a quicker overtaking manouvre. if you're 75% of the way through it, and someone pulls out onto the road ahead of you, it's probably much safer to floor the gas than to stand on the brakes.

I think they were talking about more urban area's rather then suburban and rural.

For me it would be to just add an extra bit to the side of N roads etc for a path and in the case if there is a hard shoulder have a decent surface on it and keep it clean. I dont do any urban cycling so cant really comment on that.

xxyyzz

Spending less than half of it in Dublin would be marvellous.

loyatemu

Deedsie wrote: »

I also think a €250 on the spot fine should be implemented for cyclists on pedestrian streets or footpaths. The amount of people cycling down Grafton street would be sorted fairly quick if a nationwide ad campaign including a section on fines for cycling in pedestrian zones.

make it €1000! - people cycling down Grafton Street is a major public safety issue and the sooner it is clamped down on HARD the better.

magicbastarder

so a greater fine than driving a car at excessive speed?

anyway, back to the original question - i've seen them on buses in other countries, so how about bus eireann investigating putting bike racks on the back of some buses?

check_six

Deedsie wrote: »

I honestly think they should start putting up signs that traffic lights are also to be obeyed by cyclists. Some of the goons on the N11 every morning pay zero heed to traffic lights. Ridiculous to think of this needing to be done.

I also think a €250 on the spot fine should be implemented for cyclists on pedestrian streets or footpaths. The amount of people cycling down Grafton street would be sorted fairly quick if a nationwide ad campaign including a section on fines for cycling in pedestrian zones.

I'd tend to go the other way. If I could dream up some imaginary rules I'd do a Stop sign instead of a red traffic light for bikes on many (but not all junctions). Over the years more Yield and Stop signs have been converted to Traffic Lights because the amount of motorised vehicular traffic rocketed in the late nineties and if you were in a car you'd never get through some junctions nowadays without traffic lights. Bikes can pretty much always turn left on red without getting in anyone's way so long as they have a look first. I'm fairly confident this would not cause any kind of apocalypse as this is the way some cyclists go around right now, and apart from some moaning (from the likes of me patiently waiting for my light!) I'm not seeing a whole lot of actual danger in the practice.

The bike contra-flow lane on one way streets is such an obvious step that I cannot understand why it hasn't been done already. Send some councillors on a fact finding mission somewhere nice post haste!

Cycling in pedestrian areas and footpaths is another one I don't see a problem with. There are a whole bunch of cycle tracks that are on the footpath where you are "separated" from people by the insurmountable barrier of a strip of white paint. You can also find some tracks which have a mixed use sign signifying that both bikes and pedestrians may use the same bit of pathway with no separation. Again, I don't see the predicted carnage there either. I think a pedestrian area like Grafton St could have a "Dear Cyclist, take it easy" sign maybe. Bear in mind that Grafton St permits delivery access up till 10am or 11am for any kind of vehicles (or at least it did when I use to cycle it in the mornings back in the day).

Essentially, I'd like to be able to do the stuff every other punter seems to do (without causing harm) right now that my social conscience won't allow me to.

Deedsie

magicbastarder wrote: »

so a greater fine than driving a car at excessive speed?

anyway, back to the original question - i've seen them on buses in other countries, so how about bus eireann investigating putting bike racks on the back of some buses?

Speeding in a car and cycling in a pedestrian zone are not really comparable? What does it matter if it's more? Don't do it and it will be nothing to worry about. A 90kg man cycling towards an elderly person on a pedestrian street is comparably dangerous to a car driving at excessive speed on a public road.

check_six

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Travelators on all hills.

Maybe some reverse travelators to stretch out some of our indigenous hills to Alpine proportions?

check_six

Deedsie wrote: »

A 90kg man cycling towards an elderly person on a pedestrian street is comparably dangerous to a car driving at excessive speed on a public road.

Mr Physics just called and he said he'd like you to call him back for a bit of a run through of your end of year project.

Also, I don't agree wth your statement.

Tenzor07

Deedsie wrote: »

Speeding in a car and cycling in a pedestrian zone are not really comparable? What does it matter if it's more? Don't do it and it will be nothing to worry about. A 90kg man cycling towards an elderly person on a pedestrian street is comparably dangerous to a car driving at excessive speed on a public road.

I'm speechless, literally!! :eek:

bambergbike

Deedsie wrote: »

Speeding in a car and cycling in a pedestrian zone are not really comparable? What does it matter if it's more? Don't do it and it will be nothing to worry about. A 90kg man cycling towards an elderly person on a pedestrian street is comparably dangerous to a car driving at excessive speed on a public road.

I had a long discussion with a tractor driver (long high-sided trailer behind the tractor) last Friday afternoon.

Me: That was too close.

Friendly tractor driver with very long high-sided trailer: But nothing happened.

Me: Something did happen. I feared for my life for a few long seconds. The days I have a near-death experience actually feel a bit different from the days when I don't, funnily enough. And the next time I use this road I'll be nervous even though it's very quiet.

Friendly tractor driver: But I was watching you in my mirrors the whole time, I could see I wasn't going to touch you.

Me: It's true that you kept the gap at 30 cm the whole time but 30 cm isn't enough, you need to allow for the unpredictable happening. I was going uphill. The bike is loaded. I could have hit a pothole or been stung by a wasp or just wobbled and I would have gone straight into the wheels of the tractor or the side of the trailer.

Friendly tractor driver: But there was nothing I could do. The car was overtaking me as I was overtaking you, I couldn't give you more space.

Me: You could have waited a few seconds with your overtake. You wouldn't have been waiting long on a quiet road like this, three more seconds at 15 km/h I was doing rather than your allowed max of 25 km/h wouldn't have made a big difference to you and would have made a big difference to me. The bus didn't overtake you before you pulled off, it wasn't safe and he just hung back for a few seconds.

At that point he still didn't seem to be fully taking in what I was saying so I went round to the front of the tractor and looked pointedly at the number plate (he hadn't had one on the trailer.) And then he got a bit nervous and started telling me all about how he'd never had an accident and had helped out at car crashes as a fire brigade volunteer and never wanted to cause one.

He was a nice man, the conversation was friendly, and I'm sure he did check his mirrors obsessively. But he had trouble grasping that he had pulled off a really stupid stunt, albeit slowly and while watching his mirrors carefully.

You can have two opionions of a "nothing happened" situation like that:

1. If you see the problem as one road user intimidating another, then there is not much difference between a tractor driver scaring a cyclist witless and a cyclist frightening the wits out of a pedestrian. In that sense I understand your logic - the subjective experience of being intimidated is similar in both situations. And the sheer rudeness of the person prioritizing their own journey over an other person's comfort and safety is similar.

2. BUT if you see the problem as one person creating a risky situation in which another person could easily have been killed and by some stroke of good fortune wasn't, then the objective level of risk created matters. And there is a massive difference between the risks presented by a driver being careless or rude and a cyclist being careless or rude.

Donie75

Would love to see an extensive bike trail network developed in coillte forests and other public lands. Grants for landowners to develop trails and new regulations to deal with the planning, etc. it could be the driver for great bike tourism. Take the Slieve Bloom or Wicklow area. Great for road cycling and if MTB trails were developed it could lead to a joined up tourism plan.