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A Focus on Irish Games Developers - Gone Gaming
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24-06-2014 2:14pm#1
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Join Date:Posts: 29920
Hello I'm Tom!
I am, coincidentally, one of the people who founded Boards but right now I work for my own company called Gone Gaming.
We make mobile games!
Where to start with our story... um... Well, I went on a big holiday to Asia and on the trip I realised I was bored not being in work. Since I had the unusual chance to do whatever I wanted, I decided I wanted to make a games design company because I'm a HUGE gamer. I mean, I played Pong in the arcades and have played games ever since.
I designed our logo on my iPad on the way home in the plane.
(its been cleaned up since then, but pretty much the same basic shape.)
Came home, contacted a good friend Karl who I know is super smart and works crazy hard and lets face it if you are going to get into business with someone, those are good traits
He also has a qualification in game design, so that helps!
Then I went to talk to my folks because contrary to popular belief I am not rolling in money from the sale of Boards! They agreed to stump up 5k as did my travel partner from the Asia trip, and I put my last 5k into the startup. We got Enterprise Ireland to match that for a marketing spend and went to work!
The support from EI was key to us getting anywhere but 30k wont make you a game if you want to hit the big time, especially if you are starting from a standing start. It might work if you are solo coder and you can keep your costs down (live with your parents!!!)... but for a serious company, 30k is a few months payroll.
Along side the market research and design we were doing, we also applied for the CSF, the Competitive Startup Fund. Its a grant that EI does every now and then and they happened to be doing one for gaming at that time. Its competitive in that you apply and out of all the applications 15 companies are chosen to receive 50K for 10% share in the company.
Its kinda like Dragons Den but with the government as the Dragons.
We fought hard for that through several rounds (and I wore a particularly snazzy suit) and we got grant aided!
So now we had a bank roll of about 90k which was enough to make a half decent game.... I'll continue the story in a while
Chuck questions at me!0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 29920
Enterprise Ireland used to be a nightmare to deal with but things have improved greatly in recent years. They were responsive, interested and supportive. The barrow-loads of red-tape are gone and the reports you have to fill out are a lot more streamlined than before.Call Me Jimmy wrote: »Hey Dev, can you go into more detail about your experience with enterprise ireland? I assume it went so well with them because of your business experience and seemingly the money you were bringing to the table meant they took you seriously.
Did you just ring them up directly?
Game development specific: what was the biggest lesson learned from your first release?
There isn't any magic route to getting EI support. We walked in and ask to be assigned a Development Assistant (DA) who is basically your single point of contact with EI and handles any queries or grants/requests you make. Our DA is a lady by the name of Linda Coyle who has been our DA since the start. She represents us inside EI (along with a lot of other companies!).
Your DA should guide you towards any grants you qualify for and basically advise you how best to get support from the government. It was Linda who brought the Competitive Start Fund to our attention for example.
Most of their funding is "matching funds" which means you need to have 50% of the total request yourself. ie: we got 15K in marketing funds but we had to match it with 15k ourselves. If we only had 10K then they would only have given us 10k . (15k is the max for that grant btw).
CSF is different. If they like the company enough, then they buy 10% of the shares of the company for 50k. That's the deal, take it or leave it.
You compete with lots of companies for that investment. That's where you're own experience and the experience of the team shine through. They are NOT interested in how cool your game idea is. The are more interested in how experienced your team is in terms of management and marketing and financing etc.
The biggest lesson from our last release: woah... hard to quantify. I look back on us back then and think "what a bunch of amateurs"
We've learned so much its crazy. The biggest lesson is probably that launch is everything. The first week, in fact the first 4 days, are absolutely crucial. We fluffed our launch a little and it really hurt us.
The biggest piece of advice I would give anyone starting out is: make your second game the big shot... you'll do so many things wrong with the first one you wont believe it
Seriously... if you want to learn about game design then design and build a game, anything, Pong will do. Make it and release it. You'll be amazed how much you learn.0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 29920
That's totally cheatin' ... that's like 6 questions in there.
Mobile gaming is here to stay but mobile games designers need to understand the platform they are designing for and the situations their games will be played in. The days of trying to shovel over some sort of port from a hit console game are long over. Touch is a very different interface system and the game session length is tiny compared to consoles.
Our first game was played on over 2,200 different device types!! The Android market is crazy fragmented.
Right now we are targeting only the top end devices. Large screen phones and tablets mostly. That's mainly because they have the grunt to render the sort of games we want to make now. Samsung are destroying everyone in that regard.
You're approach is good if you are going to target the small phones too. We test on S4's and HTC Ones and presume that the tablet experience is fine. (we tweak a bit for iPads cos they are weirdly shaped )
Ask as many questions as you like btw... wont bother me, im happy to answer! 0 -
That's totally cheatin' ... that's like 6 questions in there.
Mobile gaming is here to stay but mobile games designers need to understand the platform they are designing for and the situations their games will be played in. The days of trying to shovel over some sort of port from a hit console game are long over. Touch is a very different interface system and the game session length is tiny compared to consoles.
Our first game was played on over 2,200 different device types!! The Android market is crazy fragmented.
Right now we are targeting only the top end devices. Large screen phones and tablets mostly. That's mainly because they have the grunt to render the sort of games we want to make now. Samsung are destroying everyone in that regard.
You're approach is good if you are going to target the small phones too. We test on S4's and HTC Ones and presume that the tablet experience is fine. (we tweak a bit for iPads cos they are weirdly shaped )
Ask as many questions as you like btw... wont bother me, im happy to answer!
Hey Tom,
Just on this point, have you done much research into the types of phones you want to target? Like what percentage of people have a S4 or better?
Do you have an idea what your minimum target phone would be? For example it needs to run on an S3, not too worried about it running on S2.
I was a beta tester of "The Jump" and remember having issues with the phone I had at the time, the Xperia Ray which would not have been considered a bad phone at the time, it still hurts :pac:
The Jump's concept/game play was not something that needed a huge amount of horse power, but presumably it was the graphics that made it need the extra grunt. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts of the importance of graphics at the expense of load times, battery drain and potential audience (people with lower end phones)
Any plans to target micro consoles with the next game? (Ouya, Amazon Kindle Fire Tv)
(Lots of questions, sorry!)0 -
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Hey and thanks for taking time to answer some questions
I consider myself a student of game dev. Maybe I never will want to leave that label
And I am aiming for the pc platform and 3D mostly.
But I was curious what you think of the mobile market now that it has had a little time to settle.
I consider the ease of making a 2d 5-20min run time game, as one reason the mobile market might be over saturated.
This is also considering the changes for indie groups with the release of more and more software with acceptable user licences (well, we can argue on acceptable lol) and much more independance in general.
Mobile has it's own pitfalls with development I know. I am more curious how you see the mobile market now, compared to pc gaming.
If you consider a game like FTL for example. I doubt it's on mobile (it isn't too advanced for mobile anyway). But had a large success on pc as a simple 2d game with awesome mechanics.
Or maybe I mean it was very popular! I actually haven't checked how much they made ^^
Anyway.. I've been to a couple of conferences/events with talks on the industry in Ireland. I didn't really agree with a lot of it to be honest.
I keep hearing mobile mobile mobile. PC is dead and 3d is too much work. In a general sense I mean and sometimes literally.
I agree that 3d can be more time consuming, but completely dissagree with the idea that everyone should abandon it because it's difficult and mobile in the future will be all.
It may well be, when VR is portable. Until then I believe there will always be more non portable but much more powerfull devices for art of expression and game experiences.
When I keephearing at these talks about mobile beign the future and that pc and maybe even console fading out.
What that translates to me is, everyone is doing mobile, pc is open for business.
What do you think?
Is there still as much room for everyone on mobile, despite the limits of the platform and the amount of developers now?
Do you think it is going to get exponentially more difficult as competition rises and more and more people release content on mobile, with much faster development times.
Last question..
Do you find yourself ever frustrated over the limits of the control systems you can create for your mobile games?
This is possibly one of the main reasons I still want to use the PC platform.
Sorry if this is too much text or the question maybe unsuitable to answer...
But hey, we can only ask
Oh bonus question! Possibly the most important one
What games do you enjoy playing? And what platform do you use the most when gaming?0 -
Join Date:Posts: 29920
witnessmenow wrote: »Hey Tom,
Just on this point, have you done much research into the types of phones you want to target? Like what percentage of people have a S4 or better?
Do you have an idea what your minimum target phone would be? For example it needs to run on an S3, not too worried about it running on S2.
I don't need to do research.... I have access to the mobile stats for Boards and Adverts which are two of the largest websites in the Republic
They have millions of unique users so I have a pretty clear idea of how many of each handset are being used
That data is highly valuable but suffice it to say that Android beats Apple about 4:1 (yep, that high) and Samsung owns about half the Android market roughly.I was a beta tester of "The Jump" and remember having issues with the phone I had at the time, the Xperia Ray which would not have been considered a bad phone at the time, it still hurts :pac:
The Jump's concept/game play was not something that needed a huge amount of horse power, but presumably it was the graphics that made it need the extra grunt. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts of the importance of graphics at the expense of load times, battery drain and potential audience (people with lower end phones)
My own opinion is that I still think games like Chaos: Battle of Wizards has some great gameplay! I would play games in green and black monochrome (and did... I logged hundreds of hours on Nethack on a pdp11 ).
But the market wants graphics. High end graphics. Glorious 3d whizzbang graphics. And the big houses want to give them to them because it differentiates themselves from the indies who cant afford it.
Its quite like the film industry. The best films are often indie-made Cannes films but the big blockbusters everyone goes to see are the special effects extravaganzas.Any plans to target micro consoles with the next game? (Ouya, Amazon Kindle Fire Tv)
(Lots of questions, sorry!)
I would love to target Ouya and maybe Steam Box but I know nothing about publishing to them and right now we are mobile focused.0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 29920
Hey and thanks for taking time to answer some questions
But I was curious what you think of the mobile market now that it has had a little time to settle.
I consider the ease of making a 2d 5-20min run time game, as one reason the mobile market might be over saturated.
This is also considering the changes for indie groups with the release of more and more software with acceptable user licences (well, we can argue on acceptable lol) and much more independance in general.
It is reasonably easy to make a straightforward game these days and yes the market is now fairly saturated... and unfortunately with a lot of crap. Bad games and endless rip offs of the last successful thing.
The move now is to bigger budget games as the big boys try to differentiate themselves and throw money at the problem.
There will always be the Mojangs/Flappybirds but there will emerge the EA's and Ubisofts. The publishers of top end mobile games, not developers per se.
Its going to get tougher for indies to rise above the noise and so they will turn to the publishers for marketing power and funding. This is already happening and has happened with us... but more of that in the Next Thrilling Installment of our storyMobile has it's own pitfalls with development I know. I am more curious how you see the mobile market now, compared to pc gaming.
If you consider a game like FTL for example. I doubt it's on mobile (it isn't too advanced for mobile anyway). But had a large success on pc as a simple 2d game with awesome mechanics.
Or maybe I mean it was very popular! I actually haven't checked how much they made ^^
FTL recently released on mobile. I think it would have died on its ass on mobile initially though. Its mostly riding on its reputation from PC I feel.
There will always be room for the super clever game idea on mobile. Something like 3's or Dots etc. But they will be proportionally rare from the pov of how many indies actually make one.Anyway.. I've been to a couple of conferences/events with talks on the industry in Ireland. I didn't really agree with a lot of it to be honest.
I keep hearing mobile mobile mobile. PC is dead and 3d is too much work. In a general sense I mean and sometimes literally.
I agree that 3d can be more time consuming, but completely dissagree with the idea that everyone should abandon it because it's difficult and mobile in the future will be all.
We only work in 3d on Mobile. anything else looks sooooo 2011.
Consequently the costs for developing mobile games are rocketing. 1M wouldn't be a particularly large budget for a AAA mobile title now. In fact it would be kinda small.What do you think?
Is there still as much room for everyone on mobile, despite the limits of the
platform and the amount of developers now?
PC will always be there for the harder core markets. Before PC had everything, then consoles really kicked in and PC shrunk a bit. Now there are mobiles and everything shrinks a bit more. But PC's aren't going anywhere.
Two of the problems though is price and piracy. Console games still run to 60-70 euro. They are very hard to pirate too. While PC games are being forced down in price by services like Steam with their sales and back catalogues of decent-if-older games. So a new release on PC is often 49.95 and drops to 20s pretty sharply.Last question..
Do you find yourself ever frustrated over the limits of the control systems you can create for your mobile games?
This is possibly one of the main reasons I still want to use the PC platform.
I'm frustrated by how apparently THICK most of the human race appears to be. We have to dumb down everything for the general public. We've had loads of instances of game play where we wanted to use some cool touch interface or awesome gameplay mechanic that needs lots of practise / skill to pull off .... but no, people are thick and wont get it and will get frustrated and stop playing. GGRRRRRRR
PC games are a lot harder core that way. The gamers are there to game and be challenged. Not to pass time and have a nice fun experience.
So no, I don't feel limited by the interface, but I do by the audience sometimes. If you want to be mass market, you have to appease the lowest common denominator.Oh bonus question! Possibly the most important one
What games do you enjoy playing? And what platform do you use the most when gaming?
I like lots of different kinds of games. On mobile I like tower defence and puzzle stuff. But mostly I play on PC and love BF4, Xcom, Natural Selection 2 and also some indie stuff and some fantasy RPG stuff (Single player and MMO).0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 29920
Lack of experienced programmer candidates here. We were looking for someone who had commercial experience with Unity and who would work for a pittance plus a cut of the actionJust wondering why Swedish developers were used for this when the grants were from Enterprise Ireland who are about developing businesses and employment in Ireland?
Irish programmers were being hoovered up by the likes of Digit etc, and the rest were setting up their own companies like BitSmith
Ultimately we will bring those jobs to Dublin but the setup works really well for us right now.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 29920
By far and away... the sound effects.What was the most challenging part of working on The Jump which you didn't expect?
They made a huge difference to the game and they were REALLY hard to get right. We had put aside a few days to grab some stock sound effects and put them together and it turned into a few weeks of torturously editing wave files and levels. Its amazing how something can sound perfect in the editor can sound soooooo wrong when put in situ in the game.
That was unexpectedly hard 0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 29920
Personally I trained in Mathematics in college. I did really badly in my degree btw so if any of you are in despair about your results take heart
I went straight into programming (VB) for Quinnsworth (now Tesco) and spent 2 years learning to make scales randomly insult people through the scrolling text under the Bananas button.
Spent 10 years in banking/insurance programming and then started my own company which built Boards in its "spare time". The company crashed and burned but boards was a huge success! Learned lots about being my own boss and then here we are
Karl has a formal 2-year qualification in game design and is really the brains of the operation. 0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 29920
That's a great question... or in fact, questionS!
Firstly, they say never work with friends or family. I've done both and gotten away with it. I mean, who are you supposed to work with then? Strangers and enemies?
Karl and I have been friends for a long time before we did this. We work really well together and despite both being passionate about our baby (and me being an occasional grumptopus), we have never had a serious argument even when The Jump failed to make money. I think it goes to the quality of the people you surround yourself with tbh. We're both mature enough to realise blame is a corrosion and gets us nowhere.
Did we ever think we wouldn't make it? Well, I dunno if I would put it like that. We're still trying to "make it" but perhaps a better way to put it is that every time we meet up for beers we end up looking at each other and saying "can you believe we get to do this for a living!!"
Making a game is an extremely difficult project. It requires almost impossible levels of perfection in a number of areas from artistry to science to engineering. All coming together at the same time for a common goal. It is by far the most difficult thing I've done professionally.
I have a new found respect for people like BitSmith and others who are out there trying to carve a living out of this frontier. They don't feel like competitors, they feel like brothers-in-arms!
Anyone who works for themselves, in any industry, has dark days when they feel like they are faking it and will never make it work. I've worked for myself for long enough to know that voice and ignore it. Failure isn't a terrible thing, its one brick on the road to success.
Working in games development isn't like most people imagine it. Yes there is a lot of fun in designing a game but that's a tiny fraction of the whole effort. Most of which is fairly standard software development practise. It gets old quickly unless you know to expect that!
(I happen to like it and work with some gifted people so its not hard to motivate myself, but sometimes its hard to keep up with them) 0
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