Ireland's Mobile Coverage/Quality

dutopia

This is a bit ranty, but I want to try and understand what's going on with mobile infrastructure in Ireland.

Currently we have a number of mobile operators with a supposedly vast infrastructure of cell towers and 3G, 4G data networks with '98% coverage'.

Why then, is mobile signal extremely patchy and unreliable? I live in Dublin and I've used phones on Meteor, Vodafone and Three but find their reliability all quite poor. You could have 4G in one spot and you move 10 meters one direction and suddenly have no signal. Do we have weak cell towers? Is 4G nothing more than a marketing gimmick?

I lived in Seoul, South Korea for 3 years. It's a much bigger city with more people but I had full 4G strength signal about 99.5% of the time, everywhere. In elevators, on the subway, up mountains, on islands miles off the coast!

Back to Ireland - I can't even take a call on a train in Dublin half the time. This is what it's usually like:

4G 3 bars... no signal... 3G 1 bar... Edge 2 bars... 4G 4 bars... no signal...

No signal in my apartment, walk outside to a specific spot in the garden, full 4G signal. HOW?! Why is it like this?

podgeandrodge

dutopia wrote: »

Back to Ireland - I can't even take a call on a train in Dublin half the time. This is what it's usually like:

4G 3 bars... no signal... 3G 1 bar... Edge 2 bars... 4G 4 bars... no signal...

No signal in my apartment, walk outside to a specific spot in the garden, full 4G signal. HOW?! Why is it like this?

Happens to me a lot too. Sometimes without changing location at all. And no known interference nearby. Worst of all is the dreaded edge signal as it teases you that you have a connection but you're in for a wait!

WeHaveToGoBack

I was in the one the one spot yesterday and without the phone moving any more than a metre I went from H+ to 3G+ to H to 3G to E and back to 3G+.

ED E

Cellular networks are HIGHLY directional, so if cells arent packed tightly and properly there will be dead zones.

South korea leads the world on cell tech, theyd trump most places, not just here.

dutopia

WeHaveToGoBack wrote: »

I was in the one the one spot yesterday and without the phone moving any more than a metre I went from H+ to 3G+ to H to 3G to E and back to 3G+.

Exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about.

dutopia

ED E wrote: »

Cellular networks are HIGHLY directional, so if cells arent packed tightly and properly there will be dead zones.

South korea leads the world on cell tech, theyd trump most places, not just here.

So do you think it's a case of spreading out resources (i.e. cell towers) rather then spending more on infrastructure to make sure the density is high enough?

ED E

dutopia wrote: »

So do you think it's a case of spreading out resources (i.e. cell towers) rather then spending more on infrastructure to make sure the density is high enough?

Last value is pop density.

Korea, South    48,846,823    37,911    1,288

Ireland          4,062,235	26,598     153

Source: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934666.html

More than 8x greater population density. Thats why they have better coverage.

SpaceTime

You've also got to remember that the 4G networks here are only a few months into rollout. The first 4G in Korea has been in air since 2011.

The Irish 4G services are still being built out and have quite limited coverage.

In general Vodafone has the best general coverage in my experience for 2 and 3 G anyway

Are you by any chance using a South Korean spec handset? They don't use the same 2G technology and you might be only getting UMTS 2100MHz which would have relatively poor indoor coverage at times.

Bob24

Higher population density and more flexible regulatory framework probably helps in Korea (I suspect getting approval to install a cell tower is much more difficult in Europe due to tighter health and safety regulations, and more pressure from the public - which on one hand wants strong coverage but on the other hand doesn't want a powerful radio transmission device installed just next to their house, workplace, or kid's school).

Having said that - we have pretty rubbish coverage compared to other European countries and there isn't really an excuse for it (covering a city like Dublin with good 4G signal is possible and done elsewhere).

Also, while it has some value, I am also not fully convinced by the population density argument: it is both use to excuse poor coverage in the country (density too low), and poor performance in Dublin's city centre (density supposingly too high, which I would definitely dispute).

SpaceTime

I actually haven't noticed the signal quality as being any worse than other EU countries and I travel quite a bit.

Bear in mind too that when you're in other EU countries roaming that you'll have a major advantage over local users who are restricted to one network. You're actually benefiting from 3 or even 4 infrastructural networks most of the time and hopping onto whatever the strongest signal is at any given time (unless you've restricted your phone to one network).

The coverage in Brussels for example on BASE (or its MVNOs) is very patchy at times. You can't get coverage in buildings, 3G drops, calls drop etc. They do however have coverage throughout the Metro, which is something that London Underground hasn't even thought about yet.

Three UK also can have quite poor coverage in my experience even in central London.

Ireland does have issues with 3G coverage in rural areas. I'm hoping that 4G will resolve this because they're using 800MHz signals rather than the very high frequency 2100MHz signals used for 3G which have quite poor propagation characteristics.

The other issue with 3G here is that WCDMA (UMTS) or 3G cells 'breath' when they're very busy. So, if the cell is extremely choked up users closer to the cell will get signal and those slightly further away won't. It's a characteristic of all CDMA type networks, including UMTS 3G that we use here for 3G.

Because of historically poor ADSL (although things are rapidly improving thanks to eircom's fibre rollout and intense competition from UPC driving that) Ireland had huge penetration of mobile broadband. So, in some cases mobile broadband dongles were swamping 3G networks in a way that wouldn't be seen elsewhere in Europe.
We're also just bigger users of mobile broadband in general (not just as an alternative) but for example, it's quite rare in Belgium to have a USB broadband dongle where as in Ireland it's cheap, easy and loads of people have them and the data allowances are quite generous in comparison.

There are quite a few factors at play.

Comparing IRL and Seoul is a bit unrealistic though due to densities and due to much more authoritarian style planning. Ireland's planning processes are very, very weighted towards the citizen and not the corporate entity. So, you'll have a lot more restrictions on where you can place masts. There are also all sorts of architectural concerns in Ireland and elsewhere in Europe about visual impact that wouldn't necessarily apply in a rapid-growth place like Korea where technology and progress don't necessarily wait around while they discuss the aesthetics of the latest Samsung base station to be bolted onto a building.

dutopia

SpaceTime wrote: »

Comparing IRL and Seoul is a bit unrealistic though due to densities and due to much more authoritarian style planning. Ireland's planning processes are very, very weighted towards the citizen and not the corporate entity. So, you'll have a lot more restrictions on where you can place masts. There are also all sorts of architectural concerns in Ireland and elsewhere in Europe about visual impact that wouldn't necessarily apply in a rapid-growth place like Korea where technology and progress don't necessarily wait around while they discuss the aesthetics of the latest Samsung base station to be bolted onto a building.

Valid points.

dutopia

SpaceTime wrote: »

You've also got to remember that the 4G networks here are only a few months into rollout. The first 4G in Korea has been in air since 2011.

The Irish 4G services are still being built out and have quite limited coverage.

In general Vodafone has the best general coverage in my experience for 2 and 3 G anyway

Are you by any chance using a South Korean spec handset? They don't use the same 2G technology and you might be only getting UMTS 2100MHz which would have relatively poor indoor coverage at times.

Agreed.

It's not even the spotty 4G that I find the most frustrating, but the generally spottiness of receiving any network connection (even just 2G for making voice calls). I don't think there's a good excuse not to have enough signal to make voice calls everywhere in Dublin.

SpaceTime

Is this perchance on the DART line?

It's the onlyplace in Dublin I lose calls. They need repeaters or a 'leaky feeder' along the walls where it dips into the shadow of the cliffs. Mobile coverage is near enough to line-of-sight. Once you're in the shadow of a large lump of rock, the signal dies.

European cities also have much, much heavier construction than most North American and Asian buildings. We use a lot of masonary in construction (even new build) where as they'll use a lot of wood and panels on steel frames. This problem also occurs in downtown areas of East coast America too. But its a non issue in the suburbs because the construction is mostly wooden frames and wood panelling.

In a lot of Irish buildings even the internal walls are masonary. That's hugely problematic for signals including mobiles and even your WiFi hub, but it does mean a nice silent house, sturdy construction and it's ideally suited to our damp climate which can rot wooden stuff very rapidly.

The result is that signals don't propegate as well as you might expect and very large numbers of tiny pico cells are required to get the same level of coverage.

You'd be surprised at the major differences things like construction materials make.

I'm not trying to make excuses, one or two or the networks are quite patchy. However, Europe isn't Korea and there are big differences in the urban ladscape, population densities and how we deal with infrastructure building.

ED E

Northern commuter rail has some dead spots alright. Whats interesting is the trains are fed by a 3G and microwave link combination, so whatever bands they're using should have decent coverage. But as Spacetime says, its in a trench in parts.

SpaceTime

ED E wrote: »

Northern commuter rail has some dead spots alright. Whats interesting is the trains are fed by a 3G and microwave link combination, so whatever bands they're using should have decent coverage. But as Spacetime says, its in a trench in parts.

I'm not sure that there's any microwave links. Its just a high gain 3G antenna on the train roof. They use Vodafone, O2 and 3 though simultaneously to maximise coverage.

http://www.fleetconnect.ie/media_comuter_Nov2012.html

4G connectivity is being rolled out on it too.

ED E

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'm not sure that there's any microwave links. Its just a high gain 3G antenna on the train roof. They use Vodafone, O2 and 3 though simultaneously to maximise coverage.

http://www.fleetconnect.ie/media_comuter_Nov2012.html

4G connectivity is being rolled out on it too.

When I looked into the system last year I was reading from the equipment vendors page, didnt know they didnt implement microwave. Also there are directional antennas pointed parallel to the tracks so I assumed thats what they were there for.

4G is a nice opportunity for the system, but realistically I dont see it lasting that long when everyone starts to have their own data plan. Im on 3 and never use the trains wifi as its always going to be more congested than and less convenient than HSDPA(and LTE with my new handset).

On another note 5G is due to have movement/doppler effect negating features to allow access on bullet trains etc, good potential for our rail users too.

SpaceTime

I suppose the advantage is multiple networks and a roof mounted antenna.

Those trackside antennae are more likely to be for Irish Rail's train radio systems for communicating with their fleet rather than for broadband.