Advice on new alarm

intro

I have just moved into a bungalow which has no alarm. I intend to install an alarm. There are 23 openable windows, 2 doors and a small concrete shed holding the oil burner for the heating. i intend to hard wire the majority of the system
Most of the windows are arranged with a small window on top and a large window under. I was going to put a contact on the small window and an inertia/contact on the large one. Is this a reasonable way to do this or should i put an inertia/contact on all windows?
The shed has the oil burner and an infra red heater to prevent freezing of the pipes. Will a standard PIR work here or will I need a specific type?
I was reading a post about putting the panel in the attic and that would seem a good option for me. Is there additional items i require to use for this?.
I am going to put in at least 3 smoke alarms and one heat sensor alarm. What are good units?
The house is going to be extended and a large garage built (which will be up to 20 meters away) in about 9 to 12 months. What options would I have here (the garage) e.g. wired wireless etc There will be another door in the house and possibly up to 6 extra openable windows. The panel will be key to all the above. What would people recommend for this? Easy to install would be good. I have put a HKC alarm in about 8 years ago on a garage without too much problems.
The provisional list is a panel, 25 contacts/ inertia (depending on above) two keypads, external bell/strobe ,PIR (depending on above), two panic buttons, back up battery, smoke/heat alarms and wire. Anything I’m missing?

Thanks in advance. Sorry about the long post.

KoolKid

1 Inertia contact per frame on a small window is sufficient.
You would need a Duel Tec with the microwave turned down a bit at the least.
If its a solid shed with a solid door a contact may be a more stable option.
EI or GE Smoke detectors are my preference.
For the Garage wiring back to the main panel would be preferable & more reliable.
I would recommend a Siemens SPC 5300 for this installation. Much more flexible than the HKC you used previously.
There would be plenty of scope for expanding zones, keypads and areas. You would also have IP giving you remote access via web browser & the SPC anywhere App On a new build there would be lots of options here to incorporate home automation with remote access & cause and effect etc.
Any more questions give me a shout.

altor

intro wrote: »

I have just moved into a bungalow which has no alarm. I intend to install an alarm. There are 23 openable windows, 2 doors and a small concrete shed holding the oil burner for the heating. i intend to hard wire the majority of the system
Most of the windows are arranged with a small window on top and a large window under. I was going to put a contact on the small window and an inertia/contact on the large one. Is this a reasonable way to do this or should i put an inertia/contact on all windows?
The shed has the oil burner and an infra red heater to prevent freezing of the pipes. Will a standard PIR work here or will I need a specific type?
I was reading a post about putting the panel in the attic and that would seem a good option for me. Is there additional items i require to use for this?.
I am going to put in at least 3 smoke alarms and one heat sensor alarm. What are good units?
The house is going to be extended and a large garage built (which will be up to 20 meters away) in about 9 to 12 months. What options would I have here (the garage) e.g. wired wireless etc There will be another door in the house and possibly up to 6 extra openable windows. The panel will be key to all the above. What would people recommend for this? Easy to install would be good. I have put a HKC alarm in about 8 years ago on a garage without too much problems.
The provisional list is a panel, 25 contacts/ inertia (depending on above) two keypads, external bell/strobe ,PIR (depending on above), two panic buttons, back up battery, smoke/heat alarms and wire. Anything I’m missing?

Thanks in advance. Sorry about the long post.

I would recommend using the newer HKC Securewave 10/70 system, much more flexible than the older system you would be use too.
Can have up to 70 wired or wire free zones, more than enough for most installations.
With the newer system you have the ability to add wire free detectors so anywhere you can't get a cable you can add wire free.
The added ability to wire sensors out of there inertia/contacts to cover extra openings is a plus also. Saves on having to add extra wire free devices to cover these.
Some systems will limit you to adding just contacts but inertia protection on a perimeter window is a must.
If you do decide to install the system in the attic then you will also need to put a dual tec motion up there to to protect the main control panel.
EI wired smoke detectors or HKC have a wire free smoke and heat detectors.
They also have carbon monoxide detectors if you want to have them installed.
Communication wise, they have a DTV which works with most service providers out there.
It has the ability to do text and voice depending on your service supplier. Most are limited to text or voice but this does both.
They also have there APP for remote access to the control panel. It can be used with lan, wifi or the newer GSM-SC which incorporates a world sim. There is a monthly fee with this but with push to mobile on alarm activation, ability to control the system be that for home automation of lights/heat and basically anything you want it is worth the extra money.

KoolKid

The downside of the HKC app is that as well as annual fees the app itself must be bought by each user @€;7.99.
IMO this is way OTT. If you want 10 people to have access to your system via their phones that's over €70. No other alarm system requires you to buy the app.
Siemens have stated they will never charge for an app or remote access services.
In the long run this HKC service will cost a lot more. I am baffled as to why they don't offer this for free or at least give you the ability to connect directly to your own system.
II believe using the GSM also requires subscriptions.
People want self monitoring to get away from these charges.

fred funk }{

If you're going to wire the house then I'd install the siemens. If going for wireless I'd install the HKC.

Having to pay monthly subscriptions for the HKC app really is a disappointment and I do believe it will be a decider for a lot of people. I think they should have had a large once off fee for the app and no recurring fees. Maybe they might have a rethink on that down the line.

KoolKid

I think they will have to. Including even paying for the app. There is going to be some tough competition on that side of it shortly.

SemperFidelis

I put in a siemens SPC 5320 panel a few months ago, first time installing an alarm. Once you get your head around wiring the sensors its easy enough. Programming is very easy using the web browser or the SPC software. I'd recommend drawing out the zones/wiring before hand so you can determine your needs. If you need more than 8 wired zones you'll need to get an expander (which isn't a big deal, easy enough to add in).

Good luck with it.

altor

The APP itself is a once off fee so there are no recurring fees involved once purchased. In relation to the GSM-SC fees, these include unlimited voice, text and push notifications to your phone. The APP is also set up to give you a voice message of the alarm activation rather than just a beep for the notification. To have a ready to go sim or bill sim would work out a lot more expensive. Its all well and good having the system running off your internet in your home but if the mains is off then you will have no access or push notifications to your phone for any alarm activation. Of course everyone wants free, I know some people won't see the benefit but others will.

KoolKid

You mean a once off fee for every app you want? At €7.99 that adds up very quickly . There should be no charge for an app like this. No other manufacturers are charging for apps. Fair enough if people want multiple communication paths they should be able to look at that and decide how or if they want to pay. But I'd they don't then they should be free to use their own broadband connection to connect to their own panel and get notifications without paying a subscription.
Can you use the Securewave and a Lan card to do this for free?

fred funk }{

I think using the GSM-SC is good value considering you get remote access via the app for €5 a month.

Perfect for somewhere that has no Internet connection.

altor

No it does not work.

Like GSD there is a fee for push notifications. Risco seem to be the only one offering this service for free but if you went down the road of multiple communication paths this would be a different story.

The server used is not located in HKC itself so of course there will be fees for maintaining this service plus the back up of same if one server was to go down. Its not free to have this done.

Having access to the panel is never going to be the same if you don't receive the notifications, it would be like having the SPC system installed and having to keep refreshing what you're looking at to see if there is a alarm activation.
Thats the down side to that..

Having multiple communication paths with HKC will cost the same price.

Can you confirm how much to have multiple communication paths e.g text, Voice and GPRS with SPC, Risco or GSD will cost so we can compare?

KoolKid

So why will HKC not allow direct connection to your own panel via IP?
This seems to be purely to generate revenue.
There would be no server required so no reason to charge.
As for the server been located elsewhere that is no reason to charge.
GSD charge for push notifications for now but do not charge for the app or app use.
Risco don't charge for any app or services. They also use a cloud service without charging you for the service. Every website you use is on a server somewhere is that an excuse to change people?
Siemens app is free, direct connection is free and connection via their servers using SPC secure is free.
I am not going to go calculating all the different comms options that's down to what any customer wants.
But from my own I have IP Lan PSTN and GSM.
IP Lan is free, CS monitoring is at normal rates and I have €20 credit on my GSM that has lasted the past 2 years. All a lot better value than paying a subscription for access via an app.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

So why will HKC not allow direct connection to your own panel via IP?

They do for installers but not end users.

Just so there is no confusion:

KoolKid wrote: »

II believe using the GSM also requires subscriptions.

You can still install a GSM-Q if you don't want to pay for the service and use a ready to go sim card like normal system for remote access or control of your system plus sim notifications of alarm activation's.

KoolKid wrote: »

Every website you use is on a server somewhere is that an excuse to change people?

Yes, every website is on a server. It does not mean its free to host or to have access to it. Do you have free internet connection on your phone to connect to SPC?

KoolKid wrote: »

I am not going to go calculating all the different comms options that's down to what any customer wants.

It is €5 a month with HKC using multiple communication paths.

GSD is the same but dont have multiple communication paths.
One way GSM, meaning no text commands to panel plus no GPRS.

SPC is free access but no notifications to your phone through the app.
I suppose you get what you pay for there.

Risco has multiple communication paths but Sim charges apply to use GPRS and SIM control.
Minimum cost of a data sim is €15 per month.

KoolKid wrote: »

But from my own I have IP Lan PSTN and GSM.
IP Lan is free, CS monitoring is at normal rates and I have €20 credit on my GSM that has lasted the past 2 years. All a lot better value than paying a subscription for access via an app.

Not free so..

KoolKid wrote: »

People want self monitoring to get away from these charges.

With the SPC even tho you have free remote access you still need another device to monitor the system as there is no push notifications.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

They do for installers but not end users.

A strange statement considering my question is why do HKC not allow users to connect directly to their own panel??

altor wrote: »

You can still install a GSM-Q if you don't want to pay for the service and use a ready to go sim card like normal system for remote access or control of your system plus sim notifications of alarm activation's.

Obviously.
That's available on most systems anyway.

altor wrote: »

Yes, every website is on a server. It does not mean its free to host or to have access to it. Do you have free internet connection on your phone to connect to SPC?

Are you seriously arguing that paying an ISP for an Internet service means you should also have to pay again to connect to your alarm panel via IP.

altor wrote: »

GSD is the same but dont have multiple communication paths.
One way GSM, meaning no text commands to panel plus no GPRS.

You may need to either install some more GSD systems or look into the options there a bit more. They don't charge anything for their app either vs HKC @ €7.99 per app.

altor wrote: »

SPC is free access but no notifications to your phone through the app.

At the moment

altor wrote: »

Risco has multiple communication paths but Sim charges apply to use GPRS and SIM control.
Minimum cost of a data sim is €15 per month.

I think you need to do more research here as well. We are also looking at a sim package with monitoring and full remote access to Siemens panels included in monitoring fee with no extra charges and the ability to connect directly to your panel as well.

IS free so..

altor wrote: »

With the SPC even tho you have free remote access you still need another device to monitor the system as there is no push notifications.

See above

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

A strange statement considering my question is why do HKC not allow users to connect directly to their own panel??

Not really since only installers have access not end users.
I dont work for HKC so you should really be aiming that question at them.

KoolKid wrote: »

Obviously.
That's available on most systems anyway.

Just so there is no confusion re a subscription service to use the GSM as you were indicating in a previous post.

KoolKid wrote: »

Are you seriously arguing that paying an ISP for an Internet service means you should also have to pay again to connect to your alarm panel via IP.

Not arguing, just pointing out that someone is being charged somewhere along the line be that end users, people with websites being hosted. Listening to you it sounds like everything is free.. In reality its not.

KoolKid wrote: »

You may need to either install some more GSD systems or look into the options there a bit more. They don't charge anything for their app either vs HKC @ €7.99 per app.

Has GSD got remote access to the control panel via GSM and GPRS???

They may provide a free APP but it has limited abilities. If you want push notifications to your phone then paying a subscription has to be done.
This fee does not include text, voice or GPRS through a sim card.
Can you confirm how much this costs???

KoolKid wrote: »

At the moment

Have to laugh at this statement, its either out or it does not do it.
You have preached this enough over the years :pac::pac::pac:

KoolKid wrote: »

I think you need to do more research here as well. We are also looking at a sim package with monitoring and full remote access to Siemens panels included in monitoring fee with no extra charges and the ability to connect directly to your panel as well.

IS free so..

See above

Are you serious, free but only if your paying a subscription to have the system monitored

You seriously need to research the word FREE

intro

Hi. Thanks for all the advice and information. A few questions following on from it if I can impose.
I forgot to say that there is an infra red unit to prevent freezing of the pipes in the attic. I was in the attic during the good weather sorting out satellite cable and it was incredibly hot. Will this negatively impact on the dual tec unit?
If I put the panel in the attic do I need to mount it on a gable wall or can I mount it on marine plywood (for example).
In relation to the new garage I intend to run electrical cable and cat 5 out to it. It will have a roller door, a standard door and a couple of windows. Would four lengths of 8 core be sufficient?
Now I probably will not use the correct phrases for this but I will try to describe this as best I can. With the extension and new garage can I set up the unit so that when someone comes into the house and switch’s off the alarm, can it leave the garage alarmed without resetting it from the house or will it have to disarm both buildings? The same with the garage e.g. if I go into the garage can I leave the house alarmed? Not a deal breaker but would be useful if this is possible.
Many thanks again. I found the discussion about monitoring etc that followed quite informative as it was not something I had thought about. The situation in the house with phone lines, broadband mobiles etc is not sorted yet and we have a couple of decisions to make about that.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

Not really since only installers have access not end users.
I dont work for HKC so you should really be aiming that question at them.

And as a professional installer ,do you not find it strange that there is the ability to connect directly via IP but its refused to end users.
I would imagine any installer interested in getting the best value for their clients would be curious about this. I know many installers I have asked are.
Are you not?

altor wrote: »

Not arguing, just pointing out that someone is being charged somewhere along the line be that end users, people with websites being hosted. Listening to you it sounds like everything is free.. In reality its not.

I have to say its a pretty lame point to say you are paying for your ISPs connection to try justify paying €7.99 for every app you need and then paying to connect via a server where the same service is available for free elsewhere. Whats your logic in having to pay for the app? Are you going to argue Siemens,GSD & Risco apps aren't free because you have to pay for the phone to put them on.
By that logic, sure you have to pay for the electricity your panel is using, you have to pay the property tax on the house the alarm is in.
What if I want to give someone a free alarm? Would it not be free as its going to use their electricity & maybe their phone line??
You honestly baffle me how far you will go sometimes to argue something.

altor wrote: »

Has GSD got remote access to the control panel via GSM and GPRS???

Not at the moment, But why would you be offering customers GSM or GPRS when IP is free to use?:rolleyes: Unless ,ofcourse your looking to sell them extra equipment & a subscription service:eek:

altor wrote: »

They may provide a free APP but it has limited abilities. If you want push notifications to your phone then paying a subscription has to be done.
This fee does not include text, voice or GPRS through a sim card.
Can you confirm how much this costs???

As I said earlier you need to install some GSD panels or do some more research. Any customers of mine get free app & free notifications via GSD .

altor wrote: »

Have to laugh at this statement, its either out or it does not do it.
You have preached this enough over the years

That funny from someone who quoted this a while back

altor wrote: »

Yes the Lan card is ready. Apple are the ones holding this up.
We will just have to wait and see what the finished product does.

followed by

altor wrote: »

Still in testing. Say next year.

altor wrote: »

Are you serious, free but only if your paying a subscription to have the system monitored

You seriously need to research the word FREE

I think its you that has a lot of confusion with the word free based on all you have tried to argue here already.
The monitoring on its own is a set price, with out charging any extra you will also get a direct connection to the panel via the same connection.
No charge for that , so that's free yes. For someone who is selling all the time I really am at a loss to whats confusing you so much.
Or wait..... are we on the same logic as above? It can't be free because you have to pay for your internet anyway.
Seriousally.

Look! As usual we know you are going to do all your petty arguments here, we have heard them all before. We have heard something is released when its not, we have heard about your zero resistance theories and now its how free is not free.
At the end of the day, there is no other alarm that I know where you have to pay for an app. There is free direct connection available via other systems & there is free push notification via other systems.And there is more coming down the line from many other manufacturers. In my opinion and other I have spoken to, charges for apps & connection is unjustified. Now you can argue multiple comms paths etc all night long, but you know and I know for the vast majority of self monitored systems that is not a factor.
Even for monitored residential alarms its not always a factor. So the long and short of it is this. Why should the end user be charged for using their own internet connection to connect to their own alarm system?
Its not the norm on camera systems, its not the norm on home automation systems, its not the norm on heating systems. Why anyone , concerned with their customers best interests , would think it should be the norm for an alarm system is , quite frankly, beyond me.

altor

intro wrote: »

Hi. Thanks for all the advice and information. A few questions following on from it if I can impose.
I forgot to say that there is an infra red unit to prevent freezing of the pipes in the attic. I was in the attic during the good weather sorting out satellite cable and it was incredibly hot. Will this negatively impact on the dual tec unit?
If I put the panel in the attic do I need to mount it on a gable wall or can I mount it on marine plywood (for example).
In relation to the new garage I intend to run electrical cable and cat 5 out to it. It will have a roller door, a standard door and a couple of windows. Would four lengths of 8 core be sufficient?
Now I probably will not use the correct phrases for this but I will try to describe this as best I can. With the extension and new garage can I set up the unit so that when someone comes into the house and switch’s off the alarm, can it leave the garage alarmed without resetting it from the house or will it have to disarm both buildings? The same with the garage e.g. if I go into the garage can I leave the house alarmed? Not a deal breaker but would be useful if this is possible.
Many thanks again. I found the discussion about monitoring etc that followed quite informative as it was not something I had thought about. The situation in the house with phone lines, broadband mobiles etc is not sorted yet and we have a couple of decisions to make about that.

Dual tech sensors combine both a PIR sensor and a microwave sensor into one unit. In order for motion to be detected, both sensors must trip together. Altho the PIR will pick up on the heat, it should not trip unless it sees movement. The cold should not effect the unit.
Either position for the control panel will work.
Most systems can be set up for areas. This means you can have both areas set or one set with the other not. Just note any entry door in this area need to be set up too allow access to this area without setting off the whole system. A second keypad also.
The roller door would need a contact, if the door is solid enough you can have an inertia contact on it.
Cabling to each point to the control panel on its own cable is the preferred way.

KoolKid

intro wrote: »

Hi. Thanks for all the advice and information. A few questions following on from it if I can impose.
I forgot to say that there is an infra red unit to prevent freezing of the pipes in the attic. I was in the attic during the good weather sorting out satellite cable and it was incredibly hot. Will this negatively impact on the dual tec unit?

Yes It can cause issues.

intro wrote: »

If I put the panel in the attic do I need to mount it on a gable wall or can I mount it on marine plywood (for example).

Why do you need to go in the attic at all. With those temperatures I would not recommend it.Can you drop the cables down to another room etc.?

intro wrote: »

In relation to the new garage I intend to run electrical cable and cat 5 out to it. It will have a roller door, a standard door and a couple of windows. Would four lengths of 8 core be sufficient?

Yes , or one and use an expander and power supply locally.

intro wrote: »

With the extension and new garage can I set up the unit so that when someone comes into the house and switch’s off the alarm, can it leave the garage alarmed without resetting it from the house or will it have to disarm both buildings? The same with the garage e.g. if I go into the garage can I leave the house alarmed? Not a deal breaker but would be useful if this is possible.

The SPC panel is fully flexible here with areas. yes either can be set on or off totally independently of the other. You could also have them linked via cause and effect etc. You can have separate codes or common codes that operate both.

intro wrote: »

Many thanks again. I found the discussion about monitoring etc that followed quite informative as it was not something I had thought about. The situation in the house with phone lines, broadband mobiles etc is not sorted yet and we have a couple of decisions to make about that.

You are welcome. It just proves what I always say, shop around & get as much information as possible. There are many in this business who are more interested in selling you what suits them than what suits your needs best.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

And as a professional installer ,do you not find it strange that there is the ability to connect directly via IP but its refused to end users.
I would imagine any installer interested in getting the best value for their clients would be curious about this. I know many installers I have asked are.
Are you not?

As I have said, if you have an issue it is HKC you should be aiming this question at. I have asked but never got a definitive answer.

KoolKid wrote: »

I have to say its a pretty lame point to say you are paying for your ISPs connection to try justify paying €7.99 for every app you need and then paying to connect via a server where the same service is available for free elsewhere. Whats your logic in having to pay for the app? Are you going to argue Siemens,GSD & Risco apps aren't free because you have to pay for the phone to put them on.
By that logic, sure you have to pay for the electricity your panel is using, you have to pay the property tax on the house the alarm is in.
What if I want to give someone a free alarm? Would it not be free as its going to use their electricity & maybe their phone line??
You honestly baffle me how far you will go sometimes to argue something.

I am not justifying anything, they are the costs and for what it provides compared to others I think it is good value for money.
As I said in a post earlier:

altor wrote: »

Of course everyone wants free, I know some people won't see the benefit but others will.

KoolKid wrote: »

Not at the moment, But why would you be offering customers GSM or GPRS when IP is free to use?:rolleyes: Unless ,ofcourse your looking to sell them extra equipment & a subscription service:eek:

As I said earlier you need to install some GSD panels or do some more research. Any customers of mine get free app & free notifications via GSD .

I have checked this out. Not at the moment... :eek:

So your comparing a system that does not have these functions to one that has.
Even if you wanted to offer these extra features on the GSD you cant.
I can see your point with just offering IP connection so.... :rolleyes:

If an end user uses the HKC subscription I will not be collecting any revenue through it so any accusation I will be is uncalled for.
It no secret how much HKC are charging for the access to Securecomm.

KoolKid wrote: »

I think its you that has a lot of confusion with the word free based on all you have tried to argue here already.
The monitoring on its own is a set price, with out charging any extra you will also get a direct connection to the panel via the same connection.
No charge for that , so that's free yes. For someone who is selling all the time I really am at a loss to whats confusing you so much.
Or wait..... are we on the same logic as above? It can't be free because you have to pay for your internet anyway.
Seriousally.

No free is free
If you cant get your head around this, it is without paying for it.

If you don't have a subscription to monitoring then whats the fee via GPRS to access this service???
Again is this going to be free???

KoolKid wrote: »

Look! As usual we know you are going to do all your petty arguments here, we have heard them all before. We have heard something is released when its not, we have heard about your zero resistance theories and now its how free is not free.
At the end of the day, there is no other alarm that I know where you have to pay for an app. There is free direct connection available via other systems & there is free push notification via other systems.And there is more coming down the line from many other manufacturers. In my opinion and other I have spoken to, charges for apps & connection is unjustified. Now you can argue multiple comms paths etc all night long, but you know and I know for the vast majority of self monitored systems that is not a factor.
Even for monitored residential alarms its not always a factor. So the long and short of it is this. Why should the end user be charged for using their own internet connection to connect to their own alarm system?
Its not the norm on camera systems, its not the norm on home automation systems, its not the norm on heating systems. Why anyone , concerned with their customers best interests , would think it should be the norm for an alarm system is , quite frankly, beyond me.

There is more to multiple paths than what you are letting on here.
One goes down the other kicks in.
If your paying for one with HKC why not have them all for the same subscription to them.
As I have said:

altor wrote: »

Of course everyone wants free, I know some people won't see the benefit but others will.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

As I have said, if you have an issue it is HKC you should be aiming this question at. I have asked but never got a definitive answer.

And are you not concerned about that?

altor wrote: »

I am not justifying anything, they are the costs and for what it provides compared to others I think it is good value for money.

Even though others offer the same for free??

altor wrote: »

If an end user uses the HKC subscription I will not be collecting any revenue through it so any accusation I will be is uncalled for.
It no secret how much HKC are charging for the access to Securecomm.

And do you tell your customers that they can get an app(s),push notifications , email notifications and connection for free from other providers?

altor wrote: »

No free is free
If you cant get your head around this, is without paying for it.

If you don't have a subscription to monitoring then whats the fee via GPRS to access this service???
Again is this going to be free???

Are you really that confused or are you just trolling now?
You pay for something & you get something in additional at the same price the extra is free.

altor wrote: »

There is more to multiple paths than what you are letting on here.
One goes down the other kicks in.
If your paying for one with HKC why not have them all.

Why Pay for all when you can get what you need for free?
And as you said, HKC don't offer the less for free like most others do.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

And do you tell your customers that they can get an app(s),push notifications , email notifications and connection for free from other providers?

When all areas are covered including multiple paths HKC offer the best package at the moment.
Why would I consider installing a system that has limitations or undisclosed fees for GPRS communications or does not have the ability to do these functions???

KoolKid wrote: »

Are you really that confused or are you just trolling now?
You pay for something & you get something in additional at the same price the extra is free.

Trolling, are you having a laugh here. If you feel that way please feel free to report my posts :rolleyes:

Free is free, no extra fees. There really is not much to it..

KoolKid wrote: »

Why Pay for all when you can get what you need for free?
And as you said, HKC don't offer the less for free like most others do.

If you want free there are systems out there that can do free, no extra fees with limitations in my opinion. HKC have the full package with a fee.

If you use Securecomm, HKCs pathway to the alarm there is a subscription of €5 per month plus you need the APP which costs €7.99.
It is not a free service.

HKC offer multiple paths e.g. Voice, Text, GPRS plus IP to Securecomm which in turn will send notifications to your phone once you have the subscription and APP installed. Unlimited texts and voice are included in the package. These extra paths are covered under the €5 subscription.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

When all areas are covered including multiple paths HKC offer the best package at the moment.
Why would I consider installing a system that has limitations or undisclosed fees for GPRS communications or does not have the ability to do these functions???

So you only tell your customers about a paid for option and an app that has to be paid for? & not how they can get free apps , free notification , free email alerts and free remote connection to their panel?
With lads doing business like that, its one on the main reasons I advise people on here to shop around and get a few quotes and information.

altor wrote: »

Trolling, are you having a laugh here. If you feel that way please feel free to report my posts :rolleyes:

Free is free, no extra fees. There really is not much to it..

OK So your not trolling. Are you saying you really don't understand what I have explained to you, that if you buy something and then you get something extra at no extra cost, that's not free. Do you not do the shopping in your house? Buy one get one free, 50% extra free. If that's your grasp of maths that would explain your difficulty understanding resistance.

altor wrote: »

If you want free there are systems out there that can do free, no extra fees with limitations in my opinion. HKC have the full package with a fee.

A fee that is forced by stopping people connecting to their own panel . So are you saying you will only offer your customers IP connection with remote access to their alarm if they pay a subscription even though you know there is a free option out there from other systems?
Not very honest IMO. Its a bit like saying you can't have an alarm unless you buy monitoring from me.

altor wrote: »

If you use Securecomm, HKCs pathway to the alarm there is a subscription of €5 per month plus you need the APP which costs €7.99.
It is not a free service.

Also not a very flexible one. So if a client says I just wan't an IP connection on my lan card and the ability to get alerts & control my system via an app & I don't wan't to pay a subscription and I don't want multiple paths. What do you offer them??

altor wrote: »

Unlimited texts and voice are included in the package. These extra paths are covered under the €5 subscription.

I can have that with many PAYG options for a lot less.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

So you only tell your customers about a paid for option and an app that has to be paid for? & not how they can get free apps , free notification , free email alerts and free remote connection to their panel?
With lads doing business like that, its one on the main reasons I advise people on here to shop around and get a few quotes and information.

I listen to people and then advise them on the best system that covers their needs. In this industry there are too many installers out there installing what suits them rather than the customer. I don't pander to people's needs, I advise them from a security point of view.

Same with people looking for SPC, I advise them of the situation regarding the wire free devices.
John Kelly of summed up the Visonic alternative sensors available here:

John Kelly of wrote: »

Pulse setting on quantum sensors enables sensors to detect small tapping on window or door wheras Visonic sensors only detect a big hit.
Sensitivity for quantum sensors can be programed on scale of 1-9 by the user at the keypad, which can't be done with Visonic sensors.
Big differences when it comes to effective shock sensors.

Do you advise people of this???

Free APP with remote access but no push notifications to there phone?
You will require another form of monitoring be that through a monitoring station (fee involved) or self monitoring.

Do you advise people of this???

Now you know as well as I do that GSD does not have remote access through the GSM or GPRS if the LAN was down.
Would you class this as a limitation to the system???

Do you advise people of this???

KoolKid wrote: »

OK So your not trolling. Are you saying you really don't understand what I have explained to you, that if you buy something and then you get something extra at no extra cost, that's not free. Do you not do the shopping in your house? Buy one get one free, 50% extra free. If that's your grasp of maths that would explain your difficulty understanding resistance.

You are really taking this too far. get over it, free is free.
If you pay for something its not free.

KoolKid wrote: »

A fee that is forced by stopping people connecting to their own panel . So are you saying you will only offer your customers IP connection with remote access to their alarm if they pay a subscription even though you know there is a free option out there from other systems?
Not very honest IMO. Its a bit like saying you can't have an alarm unless you buy monitoring from me.

You really are grasping at straws now.
If you dont want to connect to the IP then dont, simple as. Its not being forced on anyone.
HKC offer a lot more forms of communication options, just like other panels, well some do

KoolKid wrote: »

Also not a very flexible one. So if a client says I just wan't an IP connection on my lan card and the ability to get alerts & control my system via an app & I don't wan't to pay a subscription and I don't want multiple paths. What do you offer them??

Flexible in terms of other forms of monitoring or remote access, always was.
The down side to this is if your internet is down, that is where the multiple path communications come in. UPC or Eircom customers with cables down the front of there house, boxes at the side for service points, main electric point outside the perimeter of the house. I have seen all these being attacked by an intruder. To be honest I really can't see why you are so against the multiple paths of monitoring???

Would you say its because you cant do it for free???

You're well looked after yourself, do you not think your customers deserve the same???

KoolKid wrote: »

from my own I have IP Lan PSTN and GSM.

KoolKid wrote: »

I can have that with many PAYG options for a lot less.

Can you back this statement up that you can get a ready to go sim with unlimited text, voice and data for €60 a year???

Cheers

KoolKid

You are obviously unable to grasp or understand when something is free or not. No point in continuing with that one.

Let's try simplify this down for you.
Yes I advise people on all aspects based on what they want, I'll advise on what sensors are capable of and not. I do not advise based on the panel I want to sell. In fact most of the SPC panels I install are for people who come to us because they have asked others for IP and they tried to sell them something they don't want or need. A bit like you don't need IP or you need all this extra connectivity and you need to pay a subscription.
Now you are going down the line that multiple paths are needed. It wasn't that long ago you were playing down the risks of jammers, cables being cut etc saying domestic applications are not that high a risk . Again it's what suits your arguments at the time.
Multiple paths are not needed for a grade 1 installation and forcing a subscription on people by bundling all them together is selling them something they may not need or want.
Again, what do you offer someone who just wants IP connection with free alerts free app and free connection to their panel without having to pay subscriptions??
RE my ready to go costs. The I am not going to put up my details etc. So just take my word for it or call me a liar. How much worth of calls, text and data do you think a normal operating alarm should use in a year?
Certainly not €60.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

You are obviously unable to grasp or understand when something is free or not. No point in continuing with that one.

I think you should, you are delusional if you think having to pay something towards something makes it free. Free is free.

KoolKid wrote: »

Let's try simplify this down for you.
Yes I advise people on all aspects based on what they want, I'll advise on what sensors are capable of and not. I do not advise based on the panel I want to sell. In fact most of the SPC panels I install are for people who come to us because they have asked others for IP and they tried to sell them something they don't want or need. A bit like you don't need IP or you need all this extra connectivity and you need to pay a subscription.

Free APP with remote access but no push notifications to there phone?
You will require another form of monitoring be that through a monitoring station (fee involved) or self monitoring.
Do you advise people of this???
What do you advise people about the sensors???
Do you think this is a drawback with the SPC system about the wirefree sensors???

KoolKid wrote: »

Now you are going down the line that multiple paths are needed. It wasn't that long ago you were playing down the risks of jammers, cables being cut etc saying domestic applications are not that high a risk . Again it's what suits your arguments at the time.
Multiple paths are not needed for a grade 1 installation and forcing a subscription on people by bundling all them together is selling them something they may not need or want.

GSM jammers are out a long time, I remember you calling me one day to inform me about them. They had being out years before that and I was already aware of the implications regarding them, although from my recollection of the conservation you had just being made aware of them. To this day I have not come across one being used on a residential property. Commercial yes.

Can you point out posts where I have said that there is no risk involved with cables being cut???

A risk assessment covers the risks involved in a premises.
They are graded accordingly.

Again, when all areas are covered including multiple paths HKC offer the best package at the moment.

Do you not agree??

Can you explain what back up other systems have in place for free???

KoolKid wrote: »

Again, what do you offer someone who just wants IP connection with free alerts free app and free connection to their panel without having to pay subscriptions??

Nothing is ever free, you are buying the equipment to avail of this service.
Riscos provide this with no subscription fees using the lan card and APP.
Now if you want GPRS then you need to provide a sim card to do so.
It is not free using GPRS???

Since you have asked.
What system would you install with multiple paths that is free???

KoolKid wrote: »

RE my ready to go costs. The I am not going to put up my details etc. So just take my word for it or call me a liar. How much worth of calls, text and data do you think a normal operating alarm should use in a year?
Certainly not €60.

You dont need to put up personal details.
Actually do ready to go have a contract now that you have an account with??? :pac::pac::pac::D

KoolKid wrote: »

I can have that with many PAYG options for a lot less.

Can you at lease tell us where we can get this deal so we can avail of it too.
The cheapest for a data only on ready to go I could find was €15, now this does not include the text or voice.

World sim, voice, text and data for €60 is great value in my opinion.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

I think you should, you are delusional if you think having to pay something towards something makes it free. Free is free.

So if you sell someone an alarm for €800 and they then ask for ,lets say, an extra sensor ,and you being a nice lad , say I'll give you that extra sensor for free and still only charge them the €800, is that extra device not free??
How many different examples do you need?
You really are just trolling & arguing here for the sake of it yet again.

altor wrote: »

Free APP with remote access but no push notifications to there phone?
You will require another form of monitoring be that through a monitoring station (fee involved) or self monitoring.
Do you advise people of this???

I would advise them that this is currently a limitation with some systems and I would advise them on a system that will give them all that for free if that's what they want or need.

altor wrote: »

Do you think this is a drawback with the SPC system about the wirefree sensors???

I think not having Siemens wireless inertia's is a draw back. But the benefit of us using multiple systems means we can always offer a solution that suits.
You still never answered what you offer to someone who just wants free IP connection to their panel with free push notifications,free email notifications and does not wish to enter into a contract or pay any subscription.??

altor wrote: »

GSM jammers are out a long time, I remember you calling me one day to inform me about them. They had being out years before that and I was already aware of the implications regarding them, although from my recollection of the conservation you had just being made aware of them. To this day I have not come across one being used on a residential property. Commercial yes.

I have come across it on domestic, likewise I have come across attacks on phone lines . I have never come across attacks on UPC though.

altor wrote: »

Again, when all areas are covered including multiple paths HKC offer the best package at the moment.

Do you not agree??

Absolutely not. As I said earlier, it is not the norm to charge for apps or connection for CCTV,For Home automation or for heating or light controls etc. Why should it be OK for alarms. Self monitoring has always been the free option I really don't believe the user should have to start paying for this basic service.
Do you believe users should have to pay €7.99 for every app,they or their friends or family require?

altor wrote: »

Can you explain what back up other systems have in place for free???

For multi path monitoring or self monitoring.?

altor wrote: »

Nothing is ever free, you are buying the equipment to avail of this service.
Riscos provide this with no subscription fees using the lan card and APP.
Now if you want GPRS then you need to provide a sim card to do so.
It is not free using GPRS???

Its free using IP and lan and mayby voice depending on your phone tarriff .The fact is you are not forced into an unnecessary subscription for extra paths you don't want or need.You are also not charged to download and use the app. Furthermore to actually charge someone for an app that you then have to pay a subscription to use is unfair also IMO.
Are you now saying self monitoring requires multi-path comms?
Again if they don't want or need this options what do you offer them in the way of monitoring and control via an app?

altor wrote: »

Since you have asked.
What system would you install with multiple paths that is free???

I can't answer this under your logic as

altor wrote: »

Nothing is ever free, you are buying the equipment to avail of this service.

altor wrote: »

You dont need to put up personal details.
Actually do ready to go have a contract now that you have an account with???

It wouldn't be a contract no.

altor wrote: »

Can you at lease tell us where we can get this deal so we can avail of it too.
The cheapest for a data only on ready to go I could find was €15, now this does not include the text or voice.

World sim, voice, text and data for €60 is great value in my opinion.

You can get a data pack for €5 from Vodafone. Not sure what its called but we have a lot of them connected. Maybe is dependent on the account you have set up with them.
There is also monitoring options with GSM that will cover all data and calls that will allow IP connections to Siemens panels.

Mr. G

intro wrote: »

I forgot to say that there is an infra red unit to prevent freezing of the pipes in the attic. I was in the attic during the good weather sorting out satellite cable and it was incredibly hot.

It would probably be advisable for safety reasons to get a switch installed under the attic (that you can turn on without going into the attic) during the winter when temperatures are low.

Even without the heater I wouldn't put a panel in the attic as it can get very hot during a heat wave.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

So if you sell someone an alarm for €800 and they then ask for ,lets say, an extra sensor ,and you being a nice lad , say I'll give you that extra sensor for free and still only charge them the €800, is that extra device not free??
How many different examples do you need?
You really are just trolling & arguing here for the sake of it yet again.

Under my logic as you like to put it.
If I was to go into a shop and buy a product and got 1 free.
This extra product is not free as if I have to buy something to get something free then in reality it is not free.

If the free product was handed to me in the shop and I did not have to pay for it then it would be free, not agree???

I cant imagine walking into a shop and saying to the staff I will have the free one and walking out the store with it, can you???
Buy by your logic that should be fine yeah, its free correct???

KoolKid wrote: »

I would advise them that this is currently a limitation with some systems and I would advise them on a system that will give them all that for free if that's what they want or need.

Strange enough you never mentioned it to the OP since you have said:

KoolKid wrote: »

Yes I advise people on all aspects based on what they want

This was your reply to the OP.
No mention of another system here???

KoolKid wrote: »

I would recommend a Siemens SPC 5300 for this installation. Much more flexible than the HKC you used previously.
There would be plenty of scope for expanding zones, keypads and areas. You would also have IP giving you remote access via web browser & the SPC anywhere App On a new build there would be lots of options here to incorporate home automation with remote access & cause and effect etc.
Any more questions give me a shout.

The OP even said this in a later post:

intro wrote: »

Many thanks again. I found the discussion about monitoring etc that followed quite informative as it was not something I had thought about. The situation in the house with phone lines, broadband mobiles etc is not sorted yet and we have a couple of decisions to make about that.

Your reply was:

KoolKid wrote: »

Yes It can cause issues.

Why do you need to go in the attic at all. With those temperatures I would not recommend it.Can you drop the cables down to another room etc.?


Yes , or one and use an expander and power supply locally.


The SPC panel is fully flexible here with areas. yes either can be set on or off totally independently of the other. You could also have them linked via cause and effect etc. You can have separate codes or common codes that operate both.


You are welcome. It just proves what I always say, shop around & get as much information as possible. There are many in this business who are more interested in selling you what suits them than what suits your needs best.

Still no sign of telling them about the limitations with the SPC although this is the panel you recommended for the install

KoolKid wrote: »

I would recommend a Siemens SPC 5300 for this installation.

Yet you have stated this:

KoolKid wrote: »

Yes I advise people on all aspects based on what they want, I'll advise on what sensors are capable of and not. I do not advise based on the panel I want to sell.

Then you say this when asked:

KoolKid wrote: »

I think not having Siemens wireless inertia's is a draw back.

So which is it
You advise people or you don't
Do you tell people of the limitations or are you one of the installers you give out about on here?

KoolKid wrote: »

There are many in this business who are more interested in selling you what suits them than what suits your needs best.

Yet you still recommend this system even with the limitations re wire free sensors and push notifications

KoolKid wrote: »

You still never answered what you offer to someone who just wants free IP connection to their panel with free push notifications,free email notifications and does not wish to enter into a contract or pay any subscription.??

I have training on most systems used in today's market.
I can install anything I have training on depending on what a customers requirements are.
I certainly would not be using the SPC with its limitations.
HKC would be my first choice because of the reliability of the system as a whole.
For IP, Risco would also be the choice.

KoolKid wrote: »

I have come across it on domestic, likewise I have come across attacks on phone lines . I have never come across attacks on UPC though.

KoolKid wrote: »

It wasn't that long ago you were playing down the risks of jammers, cables being cut etc saying domestic applications are not that high a risk . Again it's what suits your arguments at the time.

Again I will ask you:
Can you point out posts where I have said that there is no risk involved with cables being cut???

KoolKid wrote: »

Absolutely not. As I said earlier, it is not the norm to charge for apps or connection for CCTV,For Home automation or for heating or light controls etc. Why should it be OK for alarms. Self monitoring has always been the free option I really don't believe the user should have to start paying for this basic service.
Do you believe users should have to pay €7.99 for every app,they or their friends or family require?

I think the charging for the APP should not be as high as it is.

As I have said.

altor wrote: »

Of course everyone wants free, I know some people won't see the benefit but others will.

HKC have made the prices, not the installers.

KoolKid wrote: »

For multi path monitoring or self monitoring.?

Self monitoring with multi path.

KoolKid wrote: »

Its free using IP and lan and mayby voice depending on your phone tarriff .The fact is you are not forced into an unnecessary subscription for extra paths you don't want or need.You are also not charged to download and use the app. Furthermore to actually charge someone for an app that you then have to pay a subscription to use is unfair also IMO.
Are you now saying self monitoring requires multi-path comms?
Again if they don't want or need this options what do you offer them in the way of monitoring and control via an app?

I don't buy this being forced business, it an add on. No one is forced into anything. Its no secret of the cost of the APP or subscription charge.
Everyone is different, I do agree re the APP charge. I think it should be cheaper but to say your being forces is wrong.

KoolKid wrote: »

I can't answer this under your logic as

I would answer it under your own logic, since everything is free to you it should be easy..

KoolKid wrote: »

It wouldn't be a contract no.

I didnt think so.

KoolKid wrote: »

You can get a data pack for €5 from Vodafone. Not sure what its called but we have a lot of them connected. Maybe is dependent on the account you have set up with them.

Does this include unlimited voice, texts and data for the €5?

KoolKid wrote: »

There is also monitoring options with GSM that will cover all data and calls that will allow IP connections to Siemens panels.

You are looking at free options. If the system is monitored then a fee has being included for the sim in the first place.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

Under my logic as you like to put it.
If I was to go into a shop and buy a product and got 1 free.
This extra product is not free as if I have to buy something to get something free then in reality it is not free.

Amazing how you take this line yet advertise free offers yourself???

Altor Security Systems
21 June 2013
SPECIAL OFFER!!!

Fully certified alarm system installed in your home for €650

Includes one years free Garda central station monitoring.
Phone line required.

Don't you have to buy something here to get the FREE monitoring??? :eek:


If the free product was handed to me in the shop and I did not have to pay for it then it would be free, not agree???

I cant imagine walking into a shop and saying to the staff I will have the free one and walking out the store with it, can you???
Buy by your logic that should be fine yeah, its free correct???[/quote]

[sigh] You really are just trolling now, and sounding quite silly as well.

You never answered the one about the customer asking for an extra device etc.....

altor wrote: »

Strange enough you never mentioned it to the OP since you have said:




This was your reply to the OP.
No mention of another system here???

I based the information on what he was wanting re home automation etc.
Every reply to every post is not going to cover everything on here & its not expected to.
You are really nit picking on every little detail here now aren't you.?
Just because I advise someone on SPC doesn't mean I'm advising on using wireless sensors etc.
I would be using SPC where people want self monitoring & an app or maybe they don't want an app at all, maybe they want one of the other numerous features that HKC don't have. Maybe they want an a panel they can access via GSM or Landline without having to pay a subscription.
Likewise for other options I might recommend Risco, GSD or another panel.
If there is a limitation with a panel to what someone wants then I will find an alternative.

altor wrote: »

I have training on most systems used in today's market.
I can install anything I have training on depending on what a customers requirements are.
I certainly would not be using the SPC with its limitations.
HKC would be my first choice because of the reliability of the system as a whole.
For IP, Risco would also be the choice.

I presume by limitations you mean something that's not available on one panel but is on another.
Then do you not consider having to pay for every app you use & pay for access to the alarm a limitation when it when it is free elsewhere?
Do you not consider it a limitation that you can not offer the customer a cheaper alternative by offering them IP alerts & access without having to pay a subscription?

altor wrote: »

I think the charging for the APP should not be as high as it is.

By that are you saying the customer should have to pay.?
Why?

altor wrote: »

I don't buy this being forced business, it an add on. No one is forced into anything. Its no secret of the cost of the APP or subscription charge.
Everyone is different, I do agree re the APP charge. I think it should be cheaper but to say your being forces is wrong.

How is it an add on when you can't have push notifications & app use without it.

altor wrote: »

Does this include unlimited voice, texts and data for the €5?

Why are you so hung up on unlimited?
How much voice text & data do you think even the most used system is going to incur?
Very little I assure you.

altor wrote: »

You are looking at free options. If the system is monitored then a fee has being included for the sim in the first place.

Free extras,
I am not going to keep arguing this.
In all your years in this business have you never given a customer something for free with an installation or an upgrade etc.?
Are you really not getting the concept?? or are you just arguing as usual for the sake of it?

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

Amazing how you take this line yet advertise free offers yourself???


Don't you have to buy something here to get the FREE monitoring??? :eek:

Yes, thats my point.
You have to buy the system to avail of the monitoring.
The price of the monitoring plus installation and equipment is included in the deal.

Thanks for the free advertisement tho

altor wrote: »

If the free product was handed to me in the shop and I did not have to pay for it then it would be free, not agree???

I cant imagine walking into a shop and saying to the staff I will have the free one and walking out the store with it, can you???
Buy by your logic that should be fine yeah, its free correct???

KoolKid wrote: »

[sigh] You really are just trolling now, and sounding quite silly as well.

You never answered the one about the customer asking for an extra device etc.....

Hope my answer above answers this for you.

KoolKid wrote: »

I based the information on what he was wanting re home automation etc.
Every reply to every post is not going to cover everything on here & its not expected to.
You are really nit picking on every little detail here now aren't you.?
Just because I advise someone on SPC doesn't mean I'm advising on using wireless sensors etc.
I would be using SPC where people want self monitoring & an app or maybe they don't want an app at all, maybe they want one of the other numerous features that HKC don't have. Maybe they want an a panel they can access via GSM or Landline without having to pay a subscription.
Likewise for other options I might recommend Risco, GSD or another panel.
If there is a limitation with a panel to what someone wants then I will find an alternative.

Really, did he not ask about wire free?

intro wrote: »

The house is going to be extended and a large garage built (which will be up to 20 meters away) in about 9 to 12 months. What options would I have here (the garage) e.g. wired wireless etc There will be another door in the house and possibly up to 6 extra openable windows. The panel will be key to all the above.

KoolKid wrote: »

I presume by limitations you mean something that's not available on one panel but is on another.
Then do you not consider having to pay for every app you use & pay for access to the alarm a limitation when it when it is free elsewhere?
Do you not consider it a limitation that you can not offer the customer a cheaper alternative by offering them IP alerts & access without having to pay a subscription?

I would consider not having wire free inertia on a hybrid system a limitation.
Not agree?

KoolKid wrote: »

By that are you saying the customer should have to pay.?
Why?

altor wrote: »

Of course everyone wants free, I know some people won't see the benefit but others will.

KoolKid wrote: »

How is it an add on when you can't have push notifications & app use without it.

Its a add on to the system. The system is not sold with the modules fitted.
Like Astec and the DV and D systems.

KoolKid wrote: »

Why are you so hung up on unlimited?
How much voice text & data do you think even the most used system is going to incur?
Very little I assure you.

Unlimited is unlimited.
No extra fees.
Everything in one package.

KoolKid wrote: »

I am not going to keep arguing this.

Neither am I.