Defensive Counter Attacking Football - Jack Charlton's style for the 21st century.

gormdubhgorm

I know this world cup is primarily a goals fest so far. But there are two smaller nations who played defensive counter attacking football which Ireland should model themselves on Iran and Greece.
Greece managed to qualify for the last 16 using this style (also won the euros with it) and at the time of writing Iran have got 1 point and only conceded 1 goal in the last minute v Messi.

Why can the Irish soccer team not get organised like this properly and do not worry so much about playing attractive football?
Organisation is the hardest part. But this can be trained. Players with strength stamina and pass could be far more easily found.

Iran look like 11 Persian GAA players. Why can Ireland not play like this? Is there not 11 - 15 intelligent players in the country that can get a rigid system and stick to it? Trapattoni tried it and was reasonably successful but the media opinion went against him.

Bring back "Put em under pressure" football.
Edit: With a counter attack dimension added in - Ignoring the fancy stuff!

COYVB

Nobody should model themselves on Greece. They're a disgrace

RedemptionZ

Well I don't think 'attractive football' has been a problem for the Irish national team for quite some years, we play dire football.

Greece and Iran far more technically sound than us. Iran get so much abuse on here, but they've got a serious futsal culture there and some lovely tidy players, not world beaters but far better equipped than ours imo. Iran are also pretty mediocre in this tournament, never really looked like they would go anywhere in the competition, so I wouldn't model a team after them.

Counter attacking football is still extremely demanding and you've got to be very solid at the back and capable of scoring on the break at any time. Who do Ireland have that can do either of those things? Simply put we don't have a good enough team at present. It's also not looking too promising either as far as I can see. If we made the switch to futsal at youths and didn't start 11 a side until say U14s/15s things could be different, again imo. We'd still have the shocking 'ship em to England' policy but at least our players would have a much more solid foundation. Don't see any Pirlos being unearthed by playing long balls into the big lad up front.

miroslavklose

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Why can the Irish soccer team not get organised like this properly and do not worry so much about playing attractive football?

Eh, that's what we've been doing since Giles quit.

Liam O

COYVB wrote: »

Nobody should model themselves on Greece. They're a disgrace

I'm sure they cared when they won the European Championship.

AllGunsBlazing

Comparing Jack Charlton's style of football to the way Greece played tonight would be flattering us. We played percentage football not counter attack. Long diagonal ball to a target man, or failing that, just aim for the corner flag instead. Awful stuff.

Worked well at Italia 90 but Mexico tore gaping holes in it four years later.

smellmepower

Is that not what people wanted Trap sacked for doing?he knew full well we were ****e so set us up defensively,only for the majority of Irish 'fans' to buy Eamon Dunphy's meaningless opinions and clamour for him to be sacked cos he wouldn't pick Fat Andy Reid or the vastly overrated Wes Hoolahan.

FatherTed

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I know this world cup is primarily a goals fest so far. But there are two smaller nations who played defensive counter attacking football which Ireland should model themselves on Iran and Greece.
Greece managed to qualify for the last 16 using this style (also won the euros with it) and at the time of writing Iran have got 1 point and only conceded 1 goal in the last minute v Messi.

Why can the Irish soccer team not get organised like this properly and do not worry so much about playing attractive football?
Organisation is the hardest part. But this can be trained. Players with strength stamina and pass could be far more easily found.

Iran look like 11 Persian GAA players. Why can Ireland not play like this? Is there not 11 - 15 intelligent players in the country that can get a rigid system and stick to it? Trapattoni tried it and was reasonably successful but the media opinion went against him.

Bring back "Put em under pressure" football.

Jack's teams didn't play counter attacking football.

K-9

FatherTed wrote: »

Jack's teams didn't play counter attacking football.

Yep, based on sound defence and pressing quite high up if we lost the long ball up to Quinn or Cascarino. Funnily enough, that was the time we actually had players who could play good stuff.

COYVB

COYVB wrote: »

Nobody should model themselves on Greece. They're a disgrace

Disgraceful stuff getting to the knockouts of a World Cup.

And as for the European Championship. They should give it back really.


It's better to be winning nothing playing "the beautiful game"

LuckyLloyd

COYVB wrote: »

Nobody should model themselves on Greece. They're a disgrace

Disgrace?

Hard work is disgraceful?
Playing with national pride is disgraceful?
Never giving up is disgraceful?
Being well drilled and playing to your strengths is disgraceful?

Reekwind

gormdubhgorm wrote:

Why can the Irish soccer team not get organised like this properly and do not worry so much about playing attractive football?

Yeah, because all the problem with Irish soccer over the past decade has been because we've trying too hard to play attractive football.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Disgrace?

Hard work is disgraceful?
Playing with national pride is disgraceful?
Never giving up is disgraceful?
Being well drilled and playing to your strengths is disgraceful?

Have you ever heard of the fallacy of exclusion? Every great team plays to the attributes you list above. These are obviously not what COYVB was referring to.

Anti-football is a disgrace. Shutting up shop with the sole intention of not losing is disgraceful. Disgraceful and boring. Counter-attacking football can be fast, deadly and brilliant but not the way Greece play it.

weisses

The dutch are doing the same at the moment and while there is a lot of discussion back home about this tactic (not the nicest to watch tbh) it is effective 9 points out of 3 matches and 10 goals to 3.

And to think LvG only adopted this style because 1 player got injured earlier in the year.

If it brings us to the final I could care less how its achieved.

If you can get the Irish squad to use the proper discipline it could work well for them.

LuckyLloyd

Reekwind wrote: »

Have you ever heard of the fallacy of exclusion? Every great team plays to the attributes you list above. These are obviously not what COYVB was referring to.

Anti-football is a disgrace. Shutting up shop with the sole intention of not losing is disgraceful. Disgraceful and boring. Counter-attacking football can be fast, deadly and brilliant but not the way Greece play it.

Every great team plays to the attributes listed? Maybe. But most teams definitely don't extoll all of those attributes or, at least, they don't work as hard or are as organised as the Greeks are tournament after tournament.

Last night Greece did not play anti - football (they didn't against Colombia either tbf). They had to win the game so they were positive for the majority of the game, pushed the action for long stretches and showed great determination to force a goal in the dying moments.

Morzadec

I would agree with this, we need to know our limitations.

We are a very small country with other sports competeing for a tiny pool of sportsmen.

We also don't have a history of producing very technically gifted players.

I would rather see us compete and be there, even if it's ugly to watch rather than naively play an open game and be punished by bigger countries.

The other option would be to try and instill some kind of philosophy across all youth age ranges, to improve the technical and tactical abilities of players, a bit like Belgium did.

But even then people need to realise that Belgium has more than twice the population than us and probably less sports competeing for top spot, so achieving what they have would be really difficult.

Ultimately, in tournament football, having the ability to not concede many goals can get you a long, long way.

The type of players we generally produce would be suited to the system advocated here and would see us with a chance of making the knockout stages of tournament football again

peabutler

So how many of the Anti Greek brigade watched the match last night ? Where they totally and utterly deserved to win playing good, effective counter attacking football ?

roanoke

AllGunsBlazing wrote: »

Comparing Jack Charlton's style of football to the way Greece played tonight would be flattering us. We played percentage football not counter attack. Long diagonal ball to a target man, or failing that, just aim for the corner flag instead. Awful stuff.

Worked well at Italia 90 but Mexico tore gaping holes in it four years later.

Agreed. Plus I'd hardly even consider the way Ireland-Charlton played 'counter-attacking' football anyway. If anything it was a very attack minded type of football (albeit horrifically inelegant).

WRT the OP's proposal, I think you have to play in a way that suits the players you've got. I don't think Ireland could even perform the Greek sort of game at present even if they wanted to.

What would people think about us playing a 532 formation (if we could find the right pair of wide players?) I think O'Neill has already used it at club level in the past. He was even experimenting with McClean at LB for a bit during the US games.

The_Kew_Tour

I wish we won Euro Championship and into 2nd round of WC playing disgraceful football.

gormdubhgorm

FatherTed wrote: »

Jack's teams didn't play counter attacking football.

I probably didn't explain myself to well. I meant to add this to the basic defensive style.
1)To play defensively organised and pressing like Jack's teams
2) To play on the counter when possible (this is added dimension to defensive style which would be new for Ireland anyway!). Pick fast strong fellas.
3) I will let the more knowledgeable posters pick the system to achieve this based on the players available to Ireland.

Paully D

Trapattoni tried something similar (e.g., playing to what he perceived our strengths to be).

It resulted in us going unbeaten during qualification for the 2010 World Cup, only to be robbed of a penalty shootout lottery by the Henry handball, losing only 1 game during Euro 2012 qualifying which resulted in us qualifying for the tournament after beating Estonia in a play-off, before things fell apart in the (albeit tough) World Cup 2014 qualifying group.

The general Irish "man on the street" whinged constantly during his reign because of the style of football played.

AllGunsBlazing

In regards to Ireland its hard to know where O'Neill takes us. We don't have the pace to catch teams on the break and probably lack the defensive capacity to hold opposition teams at bay for sustained periods anyway. That quick little interchange of passes between Samaras and Samaris for the first Greek goal is something you just don't really see with us either.

Can you imagine where we might be now had we thrown all our efforts into long term player development in the wake of Saipan?

Instead of stumbling from one campaign to another for ten years. Going through one manager after another. Worse again the debt incurred by the Aviva has increased our desperation to qualify for 'the next big one', and hindered our capacity to plan beyond it. LOI clubs can't take up enough of the slack in regards to youth dvelopment because they're doing all they can just to survive from one season to the next. The will to do it is there but budgets are tighter than a duck's arse.

Essentially it's a cluster**** from top to bottom and I can only see us getting left further behind

/Rant.

Reekwind

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Every great team plays to the attributes listed? Maybe. But most teams definitely don't extoll all of those attributes or, at least, they don't work as hard or are as organised as the Greeks are tournament after tournament.

And? Saying that a team should be 'well organised' or 'hard working' is so obvious as to be banal. No manager in the world would disagree that these are desirable traits. They are in no way defining attributes of Greek football in themselves.

Who can possibly disagree that the Irish team should be hardworking, playing with national pride, have a never-give-up attitude, be well drilled and play to their strengths (as opposed to their weaknesses)? It's like asking who's for curing cancer. It also says very little about about the type of football that Ireland or Greece actually play.

And let's be clear: there's no shame in counter-attacking football. It can be brilliant and is the modus operandi of many high-scoring teams (eg Real Madrid). But Greece rarely offer that rapier response. Their typical plan (perfected in 2004) is to defend before booting the ball clear and hoping for the best.

Pro. F

Paully D wrote: »

Trapattoni tried something similar (e.g., playing to what he perceived our strengths to be).

It resulted in us going unbeaten during qualification for the 2010 World Cup, only to be robbed of a penalty shootout lottery by the Henry handball, losing only 1 game during Euro 2012 qualifying which resulted in us qualifying for the tournament after beating Estonia in a play-off, before things fell apart in the (albeit tough) World Cup 2014 qualifying group.

The general Irish "man on the street" whinged constantly during his reign because of the style of football played.

Also a good number of the more informed types complained, because they thought Trap wasn't getting as much out of the team as he could.

If O'Neill has similar success to Trap while playing more attractive football, selecting from a wider pool of players and refraining from disparaging Irish players and football, then he'll get a lot more support. That's reasonable.

Pro. F

The Greek national team that has had so much success relies on insane stamina for their attacking players to spring forward, press high or recover back, when needed. There's no point wishing that Ireland would play like that, none of our players are capable of the work-rate that the Greeks put in in International football.

smellmepower

Pro. F wrote: »

Also a good number of the more informed types complained, because they thought Trap wasn't getting as much out of the team as he could.

If O'Neill has similar success to Trap while playing more attractive football, selecting from a wider pool of players and refraining from disparaging Irish players and football, then he'll get a lot more support. That's reasonable.

He won't though.

eagle eye

Reekwind wrote: »

And? Saying that a team should be 'well organised' or 'hard working' is so obvious as to be banal. No manager in the world would disagree that these are desirable traits. They are in no way defining attributes of Greek football in themselves.

Who can possibly disagree that the Irish team should be hardworking, playing with national pride, have a never-give-up attitude, be well drilled and play to their strengths (as opposed to their weaknesses)? It's like asking who's for curing cancer. It also says very little about about the type of football that Ireland or Greece actually play.

And let's be clear: there's no shame in counter-attacking football. It can be brilliant and is the modus operandi of many high-scoring teams (eg Real Madrid). But Greece rarely offer that rapier response. Their typical plan (perfected in 2004) is to defend before booting the ball clear and hoping for the best.

What is the aim of a football at International level? I think for most people its to qualify for big championships and get as far as you can in them. The style of football is only important if you are one of the big nations who always has a huge pool of talented players and is expected to be successful at every championship.

Greece winning the Euros was a breath of fresh air. Its great to see them qualifying for the knockout stages of the World Cup. Its insane to call them a disgrace for being successful.

If you don't like the way they play well tough. Go and watch a highlights video of your favourite player on youtube and stay happy! Meanwhile the rest of us will watch as many games as we can and appreciate and be fascinated by different styles and teams with lesser talent winning football games.

Pro. F

smellmepower wrote: »

He won't though.

If MON doesn't achieve a similar level of success to what Trap had then he should be let go. That is also reasonable.

Reekwind

eagle eye wrote: »

What is the aim of a football at International level?

The same as it is at any level: glory. Anti-football is, as the name suggests, antithetical to this.

The style of football is only important if you are one of the big nations who always has a huge pool of talented players and is expected to be successful at every championship.

There is absolutely nothing stopping any nation from developing its own style. All successful teams, regardless of nation size, possess a coherent playing philosophy - Costa Rica in the current tournament are an example of that. (England, conversely, are an example of a team that doesn't know what its style is.) The idea that this is the preserve of the rich clubs or big nations doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

I despise Greece's 'style of football' but I don't deny that it possesses one. It's bleak and defensive but Greek football has a style of its own. What I don't understand is why anyone would want to copy it.

If you don't like the way they play well tough. Go and watch a highlights video of your favourite player on youtube and stay happy! Meanwhile the rest of us will watch as many games as we can and appreciate and be fascinated by different styles and teams with lesser talent winning football games.

Anyone who says that they find the Greek style of football (or their performances in the Columbia or Japan games) to be entertaining or exciting is either lying or trying desperately hard to be a football hipster. Next you'll be claiming that you "appreciated" the football of Trap's teams as much as Germany or the Netherlands.

ch750536

The problem is nothing to do with tactics or players & everything to do with the 6 yr old starting out in the game. The biggest & fastest get fast tracked to the A's where they are taught to 'get rid of it' and just kick it forward aimlessly at the cost of anyone else that may actually have talent.

The adults in the game take ownership for their own needs ('see what a great coach I am') and are unable to make decisions based on player development due to the huge size of their ego's.

Once we have a proper learning environment and goals based on delivering capable intelligent athletes at the age of 12 then we will have much better results on the pitch.

Till then it will be a bunch of second rate players 'getting rid of it' employing tactics designed for rugby doing their best under managers who constantly get blamed for the countries inability to implement a simple long term goal.

noodler

COYVB wrote: »

Nobody should model themselves on Greece. They're a disgrace

I was going to write a few paragraphs completely criticising this but thankfully the soccer forum lads have already obliged.

Liam O wrote: »

I'm sure they cared when they won the European Championship.

rarnes1 wrote: »

Disgraceful stuff getting to the knockouts of a World Cup.

And as for the European Championship. They should give it back really.


It's better to be winning nothing playing "the beautiful game"

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Disgrace?

Hard work is disgraceful?
Playing with national pride is disgraceful?
Never giving up is disgraceful?
Being well drilled and playing to your strengths is disgraceful?

The way the Greeks play, battle and persevere with very limited resources is a testament to the squad.

The success rate though, qualfying year after year, winning the Euros, knockouts of 2012, knockouts of this world cup - it just boggles belief.

And all this at a time when things could hardly be tougher at home.

gosplan

It's not really about tactics or which players to pick.

People will pour over what managers are doing wrong and how they should pick Andy Reid.

But the truth is that the players we have to choose from are the worst in living memory.

They're very poor, there's little on the horizon and there's a sh1tload of new European countries that are better than us.

Idbatterim

can I ask what exactly John Delaney on 340,000 and nearly half a million at one stage IIRC correctly, is doing to improve our situation?!

the same with their great logic before O'Brien came along, "oh we cant afford X manager" tell me the cost of the national team doing well i.e. qualifying and a good general interest in it, v the last few months of the Trap era, you cant afford another few hundred thousand, but you can possibly afford to lose millions? because Ireland traditionally have always been a there or thereabouts team when it comes to qualifying...

When I look at the US or australia and see how well they did, US in particular, Australia in its own way, then I see our highly regarded English premier and championship players play utter s**te and the "lowly" MLS and Aussies, some of whom play in the lower English leagues really put themselves about and be competitive. Do our players simply not give a ****? are they not physical enough? what exactly is the problem?!

MisterAnarchy

AllGunsBlazing wrote: »

Worked well at Italia 90 but Mexico tore gaping holes in it four years later.

Do you think the fact that Ireland played against Mexico at 12 noon in Florida and it was 120 degrees had any bearing on the result ?

Only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun.
Fifa scheduling midday matches in brutal heat was an absolute disgrace ,Ireland never had a chance in those conditions no matter what style of football they played.

When I look at the US or australia and see how well they did, US in particular, Australia in its own way, then I see our highly regarded English premier and championship players play utter s**te and the "lowly" MLS and Aussies, some of whom play in the lower English leagues really put themselves about and be competitive. Do our players simply not give a ****? are they not physical enough? what exactly is the problem?!

They are technically inferior .
There is an onus on the physical side of the game at underage level in England and Ireland and skill is a distant second.
If you are big and strong you get in the team .
That attitude is changing but it will take time to feed down .

AllGunsBlazing

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Do you think the fact that Ireland played against Mexico at 12 noon in Florida and it was 120 degrees had any bearing on the result ?

Only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun.
Fifa scheduling midday matches in brutal heat was an absolute disgrace ,Ireland never had a chance in those conditions no matter what style of football they played.

The writing was on the wall for that system before we even went to America. Spain shredded us on the counter attack when they came to Lansdowne the previous October, and the Czechs went through us in similar fashion during a warm up game for USA 94. We had been figured out.

Ironically the consolation goal we scored vs Mexico came after a rare passage of play where we actually got the ball on the deck and passed it to each other.

It's also quite possible that our final group game against Norway was one of the worst ever inflicted upon the World Cup.

Jack Charlton vs Egil Olsen - one for the purists.

K-9

You play the system that suits the players you have, simple as, whether that be Greece or Rodgers Liverpool. Mourinho changed mid season with Chelsea because it wasn't as effective for them. I don't know if it would suit our team, we are hardly blessed with defensive or fast attacking players. Also has it really been that successful for Greece? Qualifying is great but IIRC scored 4 goals in WC history and this is the first out of the group. Its a limited squad, they've over achieved this time but under achieved in other WC's.

noodler

K-9 wrote: »

Also has it really been that successful for Greece? Qualifying is great but IIRC scored 4 goals in WC history and this is the first out of the group. Its a limited squad, they've over achieved this time but under achieved in other WC's.

???

There is absolutely no question it has been successful....a massive success!

Qualified for WC 2014 - reached last 16

Qualified for Euro 2012 - reached last 8

Qualified for WC 2010

Qualfified for Euro 2008

Qualfiied and won Euro 2004



Could you imagine people in Ireland questioning our tactics with that kind of sustained success?

ch750536

noodler wrote: »

???

There is absolutely no question it has been successful....a massive success!

Qualified for WC 2014 - reached last 16

Qualified for Euro 2012 - reached last 8

Qualified for WC 2010

Qualfified for Euro 2008

Qualfiied and won Euro 2004



Could you imagine people in Ireland questioning our tactics with that kind of sustained success?

Yes I would, I really would.
It's making the most of a bad thing. Greece have to play like that because they, like us, have little talent.
If you continue to play like this it becomes your style of play. The kids watch this and emulate it.
Then they come through with little talent too. Circular.

At some point we have to change the game at the 6 yr old level and look to the seniors to try to play the right game, something Ruud Doktor was employed to do. Unfortunately the FAI has no control over the development of kids - the only country in Europe where this happens. The SFAI controls the development of kids and my local league plays 9v9 competitvely at the age of 8 - a disaster if you want to develop. Will this change? Not while the boss of the FAI is the ex-boss of the SFAI.

The real tactic employed here is burying heads in the sand and scapegoating. Until we have a unified plan to change things over the next 15 years (that is how long it will take) then we will continue like this.

Look to Belgium, Netherlands, Spain etc for good examples of player development models.

atilladehun

Tactics only help a certain amount. The quality of the players is just as important. Trap would have been way more successful with the same style if he had players of the quality that Jack had.

Columbia are another team playing this style but have not been mentioned. They have 3-4 good attackers which means when they do break they are effective and exciting. Our players are slower, weaker and less accurate when they attack.

It's about making Irish players better really. One of the podcasts did a review of the new Belgian system. (I don't know which podcast, I'm listening to about 5 hours a day atm) It had the usual stuff, they did studies to find the perfect u9 system - 4 a sides, dribbling is encouraged over anything else. u12s has to be 8 a side, not 7 or 9 etc etc. Anyway the studies have been done in similar style countries. lets start getting them in action. Get coaches/parents as much training as possible and grab a hold of the League of Ireland forcing them to play a certain amount of u21's per game.

I'm gonna stop now.

DeanAustin

AllGunsBlazing wrote: »

The writing was on the wall for that system before we even went to America. Spain shredded us on the counter attack when they came to Lansdowne the previous October, and the Czechs went through us in similar fashion during a warm up game for USA 94. We had been figured out.

Ironically the consolation goal we scored vs Mexico came after a rare passage of play where we actually got the ball on the deck and passed it to each other.

It's also quite possible that our final group game against Norway was one of the worst ever inflicted upon the World Cup.

Jack Charlton vs Egil Olsen - one for the purists.

We beat Germany and The Netherlands away in warm up games for USA 94. We beat Italy in the competition. We beat a very good Portugal team in the qualifiers for Euro 96.

We hadn't quite been figured out.

noodler

ch750536 wrote: »

Yes I would, I really would.
It's making the most of a bad thing. Greece have to play like that because they, like us, have little talent.
If you continue to play like this it becomes your style of play. The kids watch this and emulate it.
Then they come through with little talent too. Circular.

At some point we have to change the game at the 6 yr old level and look to the seniors to try to play the right game, something Ruud Doktor was employed to do. Unfortunately the FAI has no control over the development of kids - the only country in Europe where this happens. The SFAI controls the development of kids and my local league plays 9v9 competitvely at the age of 8 - a disaster if you want to develop. Will this change? Not while the boss of the FAI is the ex-boss of the SFAI.

The real tactic employed here is burying heads in the sand and scapegoating. Until we have a unified plan to change things over the next 15 years (that is how long it will take) then we will continue like this.

Look to Belgium, Netherlands, Spain etc for good examples of player development models.

Lovely aspirations aside, Greece have been uber successful considering what they have to work with.


As Lloyd said, kids could do a hell of a lot worse than emulate the way they apply themselves to the game.

Anyway, I'd hope your neighsaying would be ignored if Ireland ever became that successful. We need more kids actually playing the game and success breeds this.

There is a quote on the "unpopular football opinions" thread by someone who says that he reckons most of the posters on boards have never played 11-a-side football before and I really wonder sometimes if people appreciate what exactly it takes to do what the Greeks do.

DeanAustin

noodler wrote: »

Lovely aspirations aside, Greece have been uber successful considering what they have to work with.


As Lloyd said, kids could do a hell of a lot worse than emulate the way they apply themselves to the game.

Anyway, I'd hope your neighsaying would be ignored if Ireland ever became that successful. We need more kids actually playing the game and success breeds this.

There is a quote on the "unpopular football opinions" thread by someone who says that he reckons most of the posters on boards have never played 11-a-side football before and I really wonder sometimes if people appreciate what exactly it takes to do what the Greeks do.

Absolutely this. Someone else said on another thread that Capello isn't a good manager coz he just sets his teams up to defend and anyone can do that. It's an opinion I've heard from a lot of people about various managers.

If it was that easy, we'd all be managing in the Premiership. Playing defensive football effectively is far from easy to manage.

ch750536

noodler wrote: »

Lovely aspirations aside, Greece have been uber successful considering what they have to work with.

That is the point, don't propagate the lie that this is the best way when it is the only way due to failings in the system. Any team with talent would not choose to play this way. So you have a choice, stick or change. I'd choose to change long term and accept the short term loss. What we have at the moment is neither.

noodler wrote: »

As Lloyd said, kids could do a hell of a lot worse than emulate the way they apply themselves to the game.

Could do a lot better too.

noodler wrote: »

Anyway, I'd hope your neighsaying would be ignored if Ireland ever became that successful. We need more kids actually playing the game and success breeds this.

At the moment we actively discourage 60% of kids who turn up to training to not return through our outdated 80's approach to training kids. We put the fastest, strongest players in the A's and they reach 14, realise they don't have the skills to pass players who are as fast as them and they quit the game too.
Kids do things they enjoy and are rewarding. My experience as a coach is that our system strongly disregards anyone born after May and rarely allows talent to be nurtured.
You want more kids playing the sport? Make it fun, fair & challenging.

noodler wrote: »

There is a quote on the "unpopular football opinions" thread by someone who says that he reckons most of the posters on boards have never played 11-a-side football before and I really wonder sometimes if people appreciate what exactly it takes to do what the Greeks do.

I appreciate what the greek's do but at the same time feel really sorry for them. They have the exact same problem as us and stats show it. 23 players. 17 born within 6 months of the age cutoff, 6 in the second half of the year.
We already do emulate them.

AllGunsBlazing

DeanAustin wrote: »

We beat Germany and The Netherlands away in warm up games for USA 94. We beat Italy in the competition. We beat a very good Portugal team in the qualifiers for Euro 96.

We hadn't quite been figured out.

I'd say teams knew exactly what to expect when playing us. I don't think anyone could argue that Charlton had an alternate plan if the long ball didn't work.

We grafted out some memorable wins for sure, but sides that could absorb pressure and counter attack with speed became our Achilles heel. And defeats to sides like that became more frequent from 93 onwards.

The advancing age of key players also didn't help. They simply didn't have the legs for Big Jack's physically intensive brand of footdball anymore.

noodler

ch750536 wrote: »

That is the point, don't propagate the lie that this is the best way when it is the only way due to failings in the system. Any team with talent would not choose to play this way. So you have a choice, stick or change. I'd choose to change long term and accept the short term loss. What we have at the moment is neither.

There is no lie other than the one you have percieved yourself.

ch750536 wrote: »

At the moment we actively discourage 60% of kids who turn up to training to not return through our outdated 80's approach to training kids. We put the fastest, strongest players in the A's and they reach 14, realise they don't have the skills to pass players who are as fast as them and they quit the game too.
Kids do things they enjoy and are rewarding. My experience as a coach is that our system strongly disregards anyone born after May and rarely allows talent to be nurtured.
You want more kids playing the sport? Make it fun, fair & challenging.

Not too sure what this has to do about the Greeks being successful.

You may not want to start from where the Irish team is currently but you'd do well to employ whatever tactics you can to win. Winning helps your seeding, gets your FA buckets of money, garners interest etc.

If you equate me being impressed with the Greeks with any inference on hiow our under 7s are coached then you have again taken liberties with interpretation. In sport you never give up, you always self-sacrifice and you maintain your discipline - the Greeks have these attributes by the bucket load and all aspiring to play the game at a high level need to as well.

ch750536 wrote: »

I appreciate what the greek's do but at the same time feel really sorry for them. They have the exact same problem as us and stats show it. 23 players. 17 born within 6 months of the age cutoff, 6 in the second half of the year.
We already do emulate them.

I don't know what to make of this slightly confusing and contradicting paragraph but the Greeks really don't need your pity and we certainly do not emulate them. Even a cursory glance at hour respective qualification campaigns over the last decade will illustrate this.

ch750536

peabutler wrote: »

So how many of the Anti Greek brigade watched the match last night ? Where they totally and utterly deserved to win playing good, effective counter attacking football ?

I thought NI outplayed them and deserved the win.

ch750536

peabutler wrote: »

So how many of the Anti Greek brigade watched the match last night ? Where they totally and utterly deserved to win playing good, effective counter attacking football ?

The quote that keeps giving.

Greece 0 - 1 Faroe Isles

The nation ranked 187 in the world moved ahead of Greece, who slipped to bottom of Euro 2016 qualifying Group F with one point from four matches.

LuckyLloyd

ch750536 wrote: »

I thought NI outplayed them and deserved the win.

ch750536 wrote: »

The quote that keeps giving.

Greece 0 - 1 Faroe Isles

An aging team running out of steam has a few poor results shocker.

Northern Ireland had 23% possession against Greece, so it's interesting that you'd want to champion a team / approach that 'Greeced' Greece on the night in question.

ch750536

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

An aging team running out of steam has a few poor results shocker.

Northern Ireland had 23% possession against Greece, so it's interesting that you'd want to champion a team / approach that 'Greeced' Greece on the night in question.

You're seriously trying to say you're please with how Greece are doing?