Luis Suarez - Mod Note Post #1, #585 and #602

wandatowell

Reekwind wrote: »

Again: it is just hysteria to describe Suarez as somehow a menace to other players on the pitch. Biting is not a severe case of violent conduct

Ah here now, thats ridiculous of course its course its a severe case of violent conduct.

I cant fathom how you can say that

greendom

Chucky the tree wrote: »

It's nothing like Keane. Suarez isn't walking out on his country.

His action will cause the same net effect though.

mike65

If someone bit you on the street you'd see a doctor for a series of tests and a few jabs for Tetanus and the like.

willabur

for me he is two things - A World class footballer and a guy who has severe psychological issues. Banning him from football is all well and good but it will do nothing to rehabilitate him. So rather than ostracize him, put him on a pedestal and toss all kinds of insults and jibes at him why not try and help him.


for the record I would sooner have someone bite me than break my leg or break my nose.

Finally for the 'fellow proffessionals' line, puhlease, did you not hear john giles go on about the yard stick they used to measure players with back in the day ' Would he Kill his granny to win a football match?' professional footballers, the good ones at least don't give a fiddlers about their fellows

DARK-KNIGHT

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Who wants someone on the pitch who is willing to end someone's career? Or elbow someone, or stamp on their testicles? Did you call for Rooney and Keane to be banned indefinitely from the game when this happened?

stop making this about former united players.

Maximus Alexander

ben.schlomo wrote: »

Okay by that logic then all the players who are unable to tackle, who regularly elbow and who headbutt others are also finished in football. If we expand to a sport like rugby then id say that game will go 5 a side. The absolute rubbish being spouted in this thread is remarkable, a bunch of incredibly self righteous people aboard their very high horses complete with their agendas.

What Suarez did was wrong, he will rightly be sanctioned in some form. End of.

Was it worse than the link below, not in a million years, get on your high horses regarding that.

You don't need to be on a particularly high horse to think that repeadedly biting people at work is unacceptable behaviour.

One of these will do:

ricero

Will banning suarez sort this problem out for good ? It did not work before so why now. The man should be made get professional help

BMJD

I couldn't care less about Chiellini's minor shoulder scratch. He'll live.

I want another 30+ goals for Liverpool next season.

Birroc

Chucky the tree wrote: »

It's nothing like Keane. Suarez isn't walking out on his country.

With his bite, he did.

He price tag has already reduced by 50-80%. I would say a club could snap him up for €20m.

dinorebel

mike65 wrote: »

If someone bit you on the street you'd see a doctor for a series of tests and a few jabs for Tetanus and the like.

If someone bit you on the street they could well end up in prison.

RasTa

Chucky the tree wrote: »

It's nothing like Keane. Suarez isn't walking out on his country.

He is embarrassing his country being my point. Not that hard to understand I would have thought.

If he gets turfed out the shame he might now start to feel might make him change. Although all depending on how his press react

darced

This post has been deleted.

Will I Amnt

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Who wants someone on the pitch who is willing to end someone's career? Or elbow someone, or stamp on their testicles?

Bad tackles are an unfortunate part of the game and the intentional ones are used by the nasty, cowardly individuals.
I'd expect someone that has dished out 3 serious elbows or 3 serious stamping incidents to be reviewed and banned in the same way I would expect it to happen in this case.
Has there been a case like this where the player in question just doesn't learn and keeps doing the same thing over and over again?

Barton is the only similar situation that I can think of and I don't think he should be even playing football at all.

Reekwind

green_screen wrote: »

Biting IS a vicious assault. There are incidents (not in soccer, admittedly) where people have lost tips of noses, parts of ears, and in lesser cases, been scarred for life.

And if Suarez were to ever bite someone's ear off then I'd be signing a different tune. But he hasn't and, in all these years, has "controlled himself" sufficiently not to. The idea that a bite on the shoulder automatically equates to tearing off an extremity or giving someone HIV is nonsense.

To use an analogy, headbutting is an obvious red card offence. Even the grazing of heads is (rightly) harshly treated. But we do distinguish between a full-on assault with the head and mere aggressive posturing (leading to contact). No one ever worries about the latter losing control or berates those (stand up, Pepe) who do it repeatedly. They get punished but we are capable of distinguishing between that and genuine assault.

Calls for a lifetime ban are moral outrage and nothing more.

geeky

wonga77 wrote: »

Has there ever been a case of players biting before?

Defoe-Mascherano springs to mind.



Biting is nasty and, in a grown man, deeply weird. But more dangerous things have gone unpunished in this world cup.

In this incident, in fact, Suarez probably put himself at greater risk of injury than Chiellini. I can see that biting is not without its dangers, such as infection - I'd put it slightly above spitting at an opponent in that regard, and thing the kind of ban should be in line with that.

mike65

dinorebel wrote: »

If someone bit you on the street they could well end up in prison.

Well I was thinking about the medical aspect, rather than law and order. Its amazing what you can get away with on the field of play.

BMJD

dinorebel wrote: »

If someone bit you on the street they could well end up in prison.

Same could be said for an elbow to the face or half the tackles we see.

DARK-KNIGHT

BMJD wrote: »

I couldn't care less about Chiellini's minor shoulder scratch. He'll live.

I want another 30+ goals for Liverpool next season.

this is exactly the kind of attitude i was talking about... and there are plenty of his club fans with the same crappy attitude

Chucky the tree

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

stop making this about former united players.

Why? He's a United fan. Curious to know why he might think United players doing something is acceptable but for another player it's not.

Reekwind

wandatowell wrote: »

Ah here now, thats ridiculous of course its course its a severe case of violent conduct.

I cant fathom how you can say that

Name the number of players who have had to leave the pitch over a case of biting in football history. Now name the number who have been stretchered off due to violent assault or malicious tackles.

Breaking someone's leg is a severe case of violent conduct. Knocking someone unconscious is a severe case of violent conduct. Biting someone's shoulder does not compare to either of those.

DBK

Not really a football fan but I've two questions if anyone can answer:

If you take the name Luis Suarez and club association out of the equation and he was an unknown and look at the incident and past record, what punishment would you suggest? Forced to wear a mouth guard, banned for life...?

Also, if a player is banned for a long time, like the 24 months people are suggesting, and it also covered domestic, how could you sell this player if he's not allowed to play? Is there some insurance thing or something so the club don't get punished for someone playing for their country?

ben.schlomo

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Only the UTD fans getting their knickers in a twist over it so id say hes achieved what he set out to really. The rest of us just accept that he did wrong and will be punished, the witch-hunt brigade are busy getting the pyre ready.

Chucky the tree

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Bad tackles are an unfortunate part of the game and the intentional ones are used by the nasty, cowardly individuals.
I'd expect someone that has dished out 3 serious elbows or 3 serious stamping incidents to be reviewed and banned in the same way I would expect it to happen in this case.
Has there been a case like this where the player in question just doesn't learn and keeps doing the same thing over and over again?

Barton is the only similar situation that I can think of and I don't think he should be even playing football at all.

Ah right. So 1 serious stamp, one serious elbow then 1 serious punch would be okay be doing 3 of the same thing is crossing the line?

ankaragucu

Yes its worse to have your leg broken in a tackle and be out for an entire season than be bitten and the pain goes in minutes.But here's the thing, there is no player out there going around habitually and intentionally breaking other players legs.Suarez on the other hand . . . .

DARK-KNIGHT

Reekwind wrote: »

And if Suarez were to ever bite someone's ear off then I'd be signing a different tune. But he hasn't and, in all these years, has "controlled himself" sufficiently not to. The idea that a bite on the shoulder automatically equates to tearing off an extremity or giving someone HIV is nonsense.

To use an analogy, headbutting is an obvious red card offence. Even the grazing of heads is (rightly) harshly treated. But we do distinguish between a full-on assault with the head and mere aggressive posturing (leading to contact). No one ever worries about the latter losing control or berates those (stand up, Pepe) who do it repeatedly. They get punished but we are capable of distinguishing between that and genuine assault.

Calls for a lifetime ban are moral outrage and nothing more.

if you were bitten on street and skin was broken you would be tested for hiv and all sorts of nasties... disgusting thing to do nobody here being overly moral

CatInABox

I have to admit that I was pretty shocked to hear that he had bitten another person. I thought that over the last year, Brendan Rogers and Liverpool had done an excellent job with him, and his image had turned from being "a little bit loopy, but a great player", into "a great player."

Perhaps away from the Liverpool set up and the mandated therapy sessions, he has just gone over the edge, so to speak. Obviously he was targeted by the Italians, but that is a standard part of the game to be honest, and can't be used as an excuse.

I don't know what the punishment should be, as it effects Liverpool, a team that seems to have done everything in their power to try and control this kind of behaviour.

Very sad to see.

osarusan

Leonardo got 4 games for elbowing Tab Ramos in the head, fracturing his skull and leaving him needing 3 months in hospital.

Tasotti got 8 games for breaking Luis Enrique's nose with an elbow.

I don't think that Suarez should be getting any more than that.

Headshot

If any utd player did this 3 times, I wouldn't care if he did this internationally, I would want him out of my club and fast.

A player represents your club even if they are playing for their international team, at the end of the day your club will still be brought into this.

DARK-KNIGHT

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Why? He's a United fan. Curious to know why he might think United players doing something is acceptable but for another player it's not.

the discussion is about luis suarez. why bring your obsession into it?

BMJD

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

this is exactly the kind of attitude i was talking about... and there are plenty of his club fans with the same crappy attitude

I'm sorry for disappointing you.

Will I Amnt

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Ah right. So 1 serious stamp, one serious elbow then 1 serious punch would be okay be doing 3 of the same thing is crossing the line?

I didn't say that. Repeat offenders get less leeway in all walks of life. Surely you understand that?

Written warning, verbal warning, gone.
Probation, 3 months, 3 years.

darced

This post has been deleted.

ROCKMAN

osarusan wrote: »

Leonardo got 4 games for elbowing Tab Ramos in the head, fracturing his skull and leaving him needing 3 months in hospital.

Tasotti got 8 games for breaking Luis Enrique's nose with an elbow.

I don't think that Suarez should be getting any more than that.

And if Leonardo and Tasotti were doing the exact same offence for the third time ,,,What ban do you think they should get??

Maximus Alexander

DBK wrote: »

Also, if a player is banned for a long time, like the 24 months people are suggesting, and it also covered domestic, how could you sell this player if he's not allowed to play? Is there some insurance thing or something so the club don't get punished for someone playing for their country?

You wouldn't be able to sell him, obviously. But I'd have to assume that there are provisions in player contracts that allow the club not to pay them in the event of a lengthy ban. I would expect though that any ban that is forthcoming will be for international games only.

If there is a lengthy ban that includes club football, there's no denying that would be pretty harsh on LFC, losing such a valuable asset is going to hurt any club. You could argue though that this is a third offence of this type, and he has had (a) ban(s) for other types of offences, so they are / were fully aware of the risk and gambled on keeping him around rather than cashing in sooner.

I suspect that this ultimately won't affect LFC though, there's too much money involved.

Knex*

This honestly wouldn't even be a discussion if he wasn't so good, it really wouldn't. Everyone would be calling for his ban and clamouring for his non association with whatever Club they support.

But because he is so good, and as a result he brings success and joy to the Club and is one of the best players the PL has ever seen, then it becomes human nature to make excuses and want him to continue playing for the Club. Even more than that, if he was inexplicably released tomorrow, noone would bat an eyelid at their own club signing him. You'd be delighted.

Football is tribalistic and nonsensical at best. Its why you don't see people kicking up a fuss at the likes of Abramovich and demanding that he cut his ties with Chelsea because of his less than admirable past. He brings success, as a result all is forgiven.

If he was broke and Chelsea weren't doing quite so well, absolutely guaranteed the fans would be up in masses calling for "Abramovich out".

The list goes on, and on. Be it Cantona, Keane, Terry, Pepe, or any of the countless nutters in the game, be it at the player level, or manager and above.

We make excuses for the great when they bring success to our own Club, and we call for their heads when it comes to others.

I'd say the amount of people actually upset or outraged by this new incident is minuscule.

But, we'll keep lying to ourselves and going around in circles with this forever, no doubt.

mike65

DBK wrote: »

Also, if a player is banned for a long time, like the 24 months people are suggesting, and it also covered domestic, how could you sell this player if he's not allowed to play? Is there some insurance thing or something so the club don't get punished for someone playing for their country?

No one knows at this point (unlikely as a universal ban would be). On the face of it insurance could be hard to get given he is a multiple offender.

dinorebel

osarusan wrote: »

Leonardo got 4 games for elbowing Tab Ramos in the head, fracturing his skull and leaving him needing 3 months in hospital.

Tasotti got 8 games for breaking Luis Enrique's nose with an elbow.

I don't think that Suarez should be getting any more than that.

That analogy would only be valid if Leonardo and Tasotti's suspensions were for a 3rd offence.

Chucky the tree

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

the discussion is about luis suarez. why bring your obsession into it?

Helps in a discussion to know who's biased and who isn't.

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I didn't say that. Repeat offenders get less leeway in all walks of life. Surely you understand that?

Written warning, verbal warning, gone.
Probation, 3 months, 3 years.

If you into court up on your 5th assualt charge but this time you've just kicked someone where the previous 4 you have punched them this isn't considered your first offence. Could you imagine

Judge: So this is your 5th time assualting someone
Defendant: No Judge, I kicked this lad in the head and I haven't done that yet so this is just my first time
Judge: Ah fair enough then, we'll let you off lightly so.


:pac:

cournioni

Whatever about non-biting incidents in the game, I think outside of football the Mike Tyson incident should have set a precedent for football for similar types of incidents. In Suarez's case where it's his third offence, I think a similar ban should be applied to him.

http://www.canoe.ca/BoxingTysonHolyfield/jul9_banned.html

ben.schlomo

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Bad tackles are an unfortunate part of the game and the intentional ones are used by the nasty, cowardly individuals.
I'd expect someone that has dished out 3 serious elbows or 3 serious stamping incidents to be reviewed and banned in the same way I would expect it to happen in this case.
Has there been a case like this where the player in question just doesn't learn and keeps doing the same thing over and over again?

Barton is the only similar situation that I can think of and I don't think he should be even playing football at all.

Former Sheff Utd centre half Chris Morgan fractured Iain Humes skull in 2008, he had been sent off six times in his Sheff Utd career. Didnt seem to learn his lesson, didnt see much of it in the papers, never came across a thread on here about him.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Godge

Reekwind wrote: »

Again: it is just hysteria to describe Suarez as somehow a menace to other players on the pitch. Biting is not a severe case of violent conduct - how many players have had to leave the pitch after a bite, never mind have had their career ended?

Biting is weird and should be punished. But it is not dangerous. Or at least, it's significantly less so than a malicious tackle or actual violent assault. Banning someone for life for this is just hysterical.

This is nonsense, pure and simple.

Even in rugby, a sport more physical than soccer, biting is considered outside all acceptable norms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dangerous_play_in_rugby_union#Biting

18 month ban is not unprecedented.


In Suarez case, the mental health issues are the most important. The simulation and denial after the game following the third such incidents of his career show how serious these are. For his own sake, he needs to be kept away from a soccer pitch. A ban from the rest of the World Cup plus an indefinite ban until he is certified as medically fit to resume playing is the only way. The indefinite ban could be over as soon as August or could go on for a long time. If he is certified mentally fit to play and another incident occurs, a career ban is possible, the mental issues are that serious.

Maximus Alexander

ben.schlomo wrote: »

Former Sheff Utd centre half Chris Morgan fractured Iain Humes skull in 2008, he had been sent off six times in his Sheff Utd career. Didnt seem to learn his lesson, didnt see much of it in the papers, never came across a thread on here about him.

Did that happen at the biggest sporting event in the world with up to 1.5 billion people watching? Because if so, it's pretty odd that there was no thread about it.

Nerdlingr

What about Ashley Williams? He never got a ban for kicking the ball at Van Persie as he lay on the ground.
He could have killed the boy!!

Iang87

I dont know why he bit and no1 does. I'll have a guess like the rest though. His reaction all 3 times are that of a 3 year old who has no clue how to handle the anger he feels so he just lashes out anyway how and bites. Its not an excuse but thats what it looks like.

I think he should have the book thrown at him for it altogether, i'll always defend the evra situation but not the biting because its completely his fault and everyone can see he's wrong.

Awful pity but I reckon Liverpool will suffer big time with this which will seem completely unfair but I cant see any way of punishing him that will get the heat from FIFA.

I also fully expect him to play in the second round and maybe the quarters if they get far enough. Lets not forget how useless and slow FIFA are and suarez right to appeal even if the evidence is clear as day. Uruguay can definitely drag the nuts out of this for at least a week

Will I Amnt

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Helps in a discussion to know who's biased and who isn't.





If you into court up on your 5th assualt charge but this time you've just kicked someone where the previous 4 you have punched them this isn't considered your first offence. Could you imagine

Judge: So this is your 5th time assualting someone
Defendant: No Judge, I kicked this lad in the head and I haven't done that yet so this is just my first time
Judge: Ah fair enough then, we'll let you off lightly so.


:pac:

I was drawing a comparison with this incident, I don't mean they have to be the exact same thing. They are all assault or violent conduct.

Birroc

CatInABox wrote: »

Perhaps away from the Liverpool set up and the mandated therapy sessions, he has just gone over the edge, so to speak. Obviously he was targeted by the Italians, but that is a standard part of the game to be honest, and can't be used as an excuse.

I did not see the game, how was he targeted?

Reekwind

ROCKMAN wrote: »

And if Leonardo and Tasotti were doing the exact same offence for the third time ,,,What ban do you think they should get??

You're missing the point entirely: Putting someone in hospital for three months is nowhere near the same as biting them on the shoulder. I'm not sure how I can put that any clearer.

The recidivism alone does not justify a lifetime ban. (If someone is sent off three times for diving, should they be banned for life? No.) That is dependent on the severity of the crime. And, as I've said a number of times now, there are far, far more dangerous crimes that you can commit on the pitch than biting. It's weird but not dangerous.

Godge wrote:

Even in rugby, a sport more physical than soccer, biting is considered outside all acceptable norms.

If you bite someone's ear/finger off or attempt to do so. That is obviously a different matter entirely, as I've discussed above.

wonga77

Whatever happened to the good old fashioned fist into the head? Im not sure how biting someone would even be a thought that would enter most peoples head in a heated moment

ben.schlomo

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Did that happen at the biggest sporting event in the world with up to 1.5 billion people watching? Because if so, it's pretty odd that there was no thread about it.

In a football forum full of football threads on issues of importance in the game you'd think you would come across such things, i didnt realise this was the World Cup only forum, my bad.