Zoe/Leaf Battery Rental Figures, Why are The Irish Obsessed with owning Everything ?

I said I'd post this up on a separate thread.

Please feel free to correct if necessary my numbers.

Battery rental makes a lot of sense if you drive a lot of miles or intend to fast charge multiple times daily.

On the U.K Leaf site battery lease over 36 months 15K miles costs 109 Pounds pm. (135 Euro's)

From now on I'll just refer to Euro's.

Excess costs €9.34/100 miles.

So my average mileage is about 20,000 per year so 80K miles over say 4 years.


Rental = 6,480 Euro's over 4 years to do the 15K miles a year and 60K miles over 4 years.

The excess mileage = 20K miles.

20 K miles extra cost .

9.34 per 100 miles over, so 20,000/100 = 200 x 9.34 =€1,868.

So for me to drive 80K miles it will cost me a grand total of €8,298.

How does this compare to diesel ? Ok, of you get 58 mpg for arguments sake in the newest diesel clio it would need 6,271 litres of diesel @ 1.44 = 9,030 Euro's.

Wait, a minute, we've not included electricity costs.

If the Leaf has an EPA consumption of 29 Kwh/100 miles (34 for the MK I) but I'm going to calculate the MK 1.5.

So you divide 80,000 into 100 to find out how many Kwh needed for 80K miles.

Needs 23,200 Kwh x 0.09 C/Kwh night rate = 2,000 Euro's.

Interestingly that's about 8 months driving in the Prius compared to 4 years driving in a Leaf !

The total for the Leaf and rental = €10,298. for 4 years and 80,000 miles. INC electricity.

This makes it just under a grand more expensive than the Diesel clio, that's if of course you can average 58 mpg per tank , the gap narrows the less mpg you get.

All this still excludes the purchase prices of the vehicles and the price for Zoe is still not on the site, I really wish I knew why zoe still isn't available.

A diesel clio higher spec costs €23,000 for the automatic.

A higher spec Leaf will cost around 28K for the highest spec. or 23K without the battery which is interesting.

So the Leaf without battery would cost 25,520K + 10,298 inc battery rental/ leccy =35,818

The diesel clio would cost 23K + 9K = 32K.

Now I am excluding the maintenance cost of the Clio which will be much higher over 80K miles. Costing maybe 1500 over 3 years, excluding timing belt after 80 K miles costing 400 euro ? =1900 . costing nearly 34K.

Not including the extra cost of motor tax.

A leaf with 80K miles will only need fluid changes around 100K miles and "inspections" and a battery check.

A leaf with battery will cost 28K for the high spec out the door with granny cable + leccy 30K over 80 K miles.

The Leaf is about 4 K cheaper without rental, however you can't replace the battery.

With the Leaf you do get more gadgets and the ability to remote activate heat/ac which is a function a lot of owners that have it couldn't now live without.

The Leaf will still be a good car even after 100K miles and whenever the battery needs replacing it will still be a very good car.

So battery rental doesn't seem that bad ?

robtri

a nice look at it there....

it really doesn't stack up as a money saver then the EV....

And considering the enviromental damage building these cars does and that the electricity to supply them is dirty...
I fail to see the appeal of them

robtri

robtri wrote: »

a nice look at it there....

it really doesn't stack up as a money saver then the EV....

And considering the enviromental damage building these cars does and that the electricity to supply them is dirty...
I fail to see the appeal of them

They are no worse for the environment than an ordinary ice in their production.

Electricity generated at night wastes a lot of fuel because the power stations have to be kept going to be available for demand, electrics can at least use that wasted power.

The refining of petrol and diesel uses enough electricity to power something like half a billion electric cars, the exact figure I can get. Based on U.K refineries.

So I would say electric cars are far greener. + you don;t get diesel exhaust in towns and cities.

robtri

robtri wrote: »

it really doesn't stack up as a money saver then the EV....

It doesn't in regard to leasing, based on Leaf figures from the U.K, however this could be different in Ireland for Zoe.

However based on a car of similar size such as a golf, though the Golf is smaller, then the cost of the Golf DSG Highline = 29K with a lower spec than the highest spec Leaf.

so then the Golf will cost if you can average 55 mpg over 80K miles a total of €9,521.

The highest spec Leaf, higher spec than Golf, costs about 28K with granny cable, cost of leccy for 80K miles on night rate leccy = 2K. Total cost 30K

Total cost for Golf = 38,521 excluding the difference in servicing.

So I'd say that's a fair difference.

You can buy the base leaf with quick charge for 21,500.

robtri

Deleted User wrote: »

They are no worse for the environment than an ordinary ice in their production.

Electricity generated at night wastes a lot of fuel because the power stations have to be kept going to be available for demand, electrics can at least use that wasted power.

The refining of petrol and diesel uses enough electricity to power something like half a billion electric cars, the exact figure I can get. Based on U.K refineries.

So I would say electric cars are far greener. + you don;t get diesel exhaust in towns and cities.

I would disagree about the production piece, Lithium mining is hugely damaging to the environment.

I see the point about the exhaust fumes in town, and thinking on it I do agree this is a real plus point, but the overall damage to the air on a larger scale is similair as we just don't have enough renewables.

robtri

robtri wrote: »

I would disagree about the production piece, Lithium mining is hugely damaging to the environment.

I see the point about the exhaust fumes in town, and thinking on it I do agree this is a real plus point, but the overall damage to the air on a larger scale is similair as we just don't have enough renewables.

Only if you buy from certain Chinese mines which are now actually getting shut down, more and more each day.

There are only small amounts of lithium in car batteries, Graphite is the main one and Tesla were heavily criticised for supposedly using supplies from China when in fact Elon mush himself said they get their lithium from well regulated mines from Japan.

Currently most battery production is to supply demand for consumer electronics.

NEC probably also get their minerals from Japan for the Leaf batteries.

BMJD

robtri wrote: »

I would disagree about the production piece, Lithium mining is hugely damaging to the environment.

I see the point about the exhaust fumes in town, and thinking on it I do agree this is a real plus point, but the overall damage to the air on a larger scale is similair as we just don't have enough renewables.

are you comparing like with like?

i.e. the cost of oil exploration, extraction, refinement, transport, etc. Vs the batteries?

As I said refinement of oil to petrol and diesel consumes enough electricity alone to power half a billion electric cars.

So anyway, no interest in talking about the battery rental ?

What do people think of my figures above ?

beazee

I'd say it's the fact you've to pay "extra" each month that kills the joy of owning Zoe.

Say you meet you ICE friend at the petrol station - he has just put €70 into the tank.
And you've to put €135 in a week coming towards battery rental. It does kill the discussion on "saving through EV ownership".

With LEAF it's a different story - that €70 would pay the "extra" on home electricity bill for 4 months.
Each time you're passing the garage you may feel you have saved that bit.

All that initial cost of buying a car apart.

I could probably swap my current car for the new Zoe once it's available at no extra cost.
But the €135 pm for the battery rental is actually more than what I currently put in the tank*.
So I keep paying more for a smaller car with way quieter engine.
Nah!


*Sorry, checked this - €2081 for petrol in 2013 (€166 pm). Not much of the savings then.
OK, newer car but smaller.

gctest50

Deleted User wrote: »

As I said refinement of oil to petrol and diesel consumes enough electricity alone to power half a billion electric cars.

Mining and transporting the metals for batteries for electric cars is a bit rough too

Mods, can you please delete the above post as I don't want this thread getting hijacked like all the others.

Gctest50 if you want to debate the environmental impact of electrics then please do it in your own thread.

gctest50

Deleted User wrote: »

Mods, can you please delete the above post as I don't want this thread getting hijacked like all the others.

Gctest50 if you want to debate the environmental impact of electrics then please do it in your own thread.

I'm not derailing/hijacking it

Diesel / petrol - you need big holes in the ground or under the sea

EV - you need big holes in the ground

Its not the magic ticket - it is the absolute doggies for the school / shopping run though

the little diesels can cost you very dearly if they are on short runs

- a little electric yoke would whizz away for many 100,000s miles

iffy servicing .......... turbo failure + bad replacement procedure = €€€€€€€€€€ :

http://www.assuredperformance.ie/assets/images/Presentation-1.6-hdi-carbo-issues.pdf

.

KrustyBurger

I wouldn't countenance battery rental. The Leaf makes sense to me as the savings in fuel costs can make a large dent in repayments. If I had to rent a battery each month it wouldn't be doable so I won't consider it.

gctest50

gctest50 wrote: »

I'm not derailing/hijacking it

Diesel / petrol - you need big holes in the ground or under the sea

EV - you need big holes in the ground

Its not the magic ticket - it is the absolute doggies for the school / shopping run though

the little diesels can cost you very dearly if they are on short runs

- a little electric yoke would whizz away for many 100,000s miles

iffy servicing .......... turbo failure + bad replacement procedure = €€€€€€€€€€ :

http://www.assuredperformance.ie/assets/images/Presentation-1.6-hdi-carbo-issues.pdf

.

Look, You can create a thread of your own and by all means we can debate the environmental impacts of electrics V ice then.

Please just keep it on topic, that is discussing battery rental.

beazee

beazee wrote: »

I'd say it's the fact you've to pay "extra" each month that kills the joy of owning Zoe.

My figures could be off for Zoe as the numbers I got are for the Leaf and UK prices. That's why I titles the thread as I did.

You're not really paying extra though, because in the case of the Leaf the car actually costs 6,860 Euro's without the battery in the U.K.

So 135 PM is € 6,480 over 4 years, what (I) would pay over 80K miles in excess is 1,868 extra.

You're still going to be paying for a loan PM anyway and if you buy the car with the battery you'll actually pay more due to interest.

If you Buy the car with the battery you're monthly payments will be more either way.

beazee wrote: »

Say you meet you ICE friend at the petrol station - he has just put €70 into the tank.
And you've to put €135 in a week coming towards battery rental. It does kill the discussion on "saving through EV ownership".

It doesn't actually because your friend will have paid more for his equivalent car in the first place + he's paying much higher fuel costs.

beazee wrote: »

I could probably swap my current car for the new Zoe once it's available at no extra cost.
But the €135 pm for the battery rental is actually more than what I currently put in the tank*.
So I keep paying more for a smaller car with way quieter engine.
Nah!

If you get a new car then anything you buy will cost you much more PM than just paying for fuel in your current car.

If you buy Zoe without battery it still won't cost you more, because the "total" you pay back over 4 years will be the same, only mine higher because of the fact I have to drive a lot. Though hopefully this year that will have dropped a lot.

beazee wrote: »

*Sorry, checked this - €2081 for petrol in 2013 (€166 pm). Not much of the savings then.
OK, newer car but smaller.

You're completely missing the point, The battery rental is offset against the cheaper cost of the car. If the car included the battery you'll still have the same PM to pay battery or not because what you'd pay PM in the rental will be included in the repayments on the car, the difference being, you're paying more interest on the car with the battery and so for me this could offset the excess in total.

KrustyBurger

KrustyBurger wrote: »

I wouldn't countenance battery rental. The Leaf makes sense to me as the savings in fuel costs can make a large dent in repayments. If I had to rent a battery each month it wouldn't be doable so I won't consider it.

The thing is though, if you're not paying battery rental then you're paying 6,800 more on the cost of the car + interest, so you end up paying the same.

It just means your car repayments will be higher per month anyway.

I'll do another example on a cheaper monthly payment and lower miles in a while.

robtri

Deleted User wrote: »

As I said refinement of oil to petrol and diesel consumes enough electricity alone to power half a billion electric cars.

and I am sure the mining and transportaion of Lithium use similar amounts..

ei9go

On Topic

I would not buy any car where I had to pay a monthly charge to the manufacturer in order to use it.

KrustyBurger

If I was buying an EV then I'd be looking longterm. So I'm thinking of buying a Leaf in the UK and importing it (thanks for link). After I finish repayments then I'm saving roughly 200/month on fuel. That would be wiped out if I had to lease a battery.

wexie

ei9go wrote: »

On Topic

I would not buy any car where I had to pay a monthly charge to the manufacturer in order to use it.

I'd be perfectly happy paying a battery lease, if they managed to give me a somewhat useful range, but from what I gather real world figures are 70/80 miles on a charge and that's assuming no traffic, hills or strong winds.

I'll stick to daysel thank you.

ei9go

ei9go wrote: »

On Topic

I would not buy any car where I had to pay a monthly charge to the manufacturer in order to use it.

Depends, might suit the high mileage driver, makes no difference to the lower mileage driver who would probably run up 80K miles in 10-12 years.

If someone wants to use the fast chargers a lot it also makes sense.

Lots of people lease, it's no big deal.

Do you really want to own the battery in the first place, especially if it's going to degrade ?

Nissan should allow people to buy a new battery to begin with or allow 2nd hand owners to buy or lease a new abttery.

wexie

Deleted User wrote: »

Nissan should allow people to buy a new battery to begin with or allow 2nd hand owners to buy or lease a new abttery.

Do they not do this? It'd be extraordinarily stupid if they didn't no? Essentially then if you buy one you're stuck with it, nobody in their right mind would buy one second hand

Scottie99

I've be trying to find the Irish renting prices but to avail. Firstly, I'd add 10/20% onto the UK prices because......that's just usually the way it is. Then I'd go from there.

wexie

wexie wrote: »

Do they not do this? It'd be extraordinarily stupid if they didn't no? Essentially then if you buy one you're stuck with it, nobody in their right mind would buy one second hand

No they don't allow you buy a new battery outright, not yet anyway.

I would be interested in buying a 2nd hand Leaf and Leasing the battery, the cost should come down though as the battery ages.

with a new battery the Leaf will most likely run a very, very long time.

The Leaf will still will still find uses even with a degraded battery.

It won't be that long until Leaf II with more range.

Scottie99

Scottie99 wrote: »

I've be trying to find the Irish renting prices but to avail. Firstly, I'd add 10/20% onto the UK prices because......that's just usually the way it is. Then I'd go from there.

Nissan Ireland don't give people the choice, in Ireland the Leaf is sold with the battery.

The Leaf costs more in the U.K. Going by the highest spec.

Another example, this time driving 10,500 miles a year.

106 PM x 36 payments = € 3,816 over 3 years. Excluding electricity of course.

I really wish I had Irish prices because the Leaf is working out more expensive in the U.K.

The Leaf costs 25,632 in the U.K without battery compared to 26,390 in Ireland with the battery excluding dealer charges.

But going by the U.K price the total cost over 3 years would be 29,448 Euro's.

The cost new with battery is 31,882 Euro's. So it's costing you less + you pay less interest because the cost of the car is lower without the battery.

So going by U.K prices it actually costs less to lease the battery than to buy the battery outright over 3 years and 10,500 miles per year.

Doing such little mileage you probably wouldn't need to lease the battery because you shouldn't have lost much range 31,500 miles. you wouldn't notice it.

If you abuse the battery by fast charging excessively or to the point the battery roasts and you intend to keep the leaf a long time then renting the battery makes a lot of sense, why would you want to own something that will degrade ?

Scottie99

Deleted User wrote: »

Nissan Ireland don't give people the choice, in Ireland the Leaf is sold with the battery.

The Leaf costs more in the U.K. Going by the highest spec.

I know that because I drive one. I was talking about the Renault Zoe battery rental price which was quoted (uk) Add 10/20% to the Uk cost and you get the Irish price.

kdouglas

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The Leaf costs 25,632 in the U.K without battery compared to 26,390 in Ireland with the battery excluding dealer charges.

are you sure that UK price is without battery? I was sure I saw UK Leaf for about 14-15k GBP without battery?

Do you really want to own the battery in the first place, especially if it's going to degrade ?

Do you really want to own a combustion engine in the first place if it's going to become less efficient and require costly maintenance?

That's the way I see the battery lease, it's like owning a car but not the engine that powers it? I prefer to own the whole car including battery. If you are going to lease, lease the whole car and get a new one in 3 years. Is anyone really going to keep an EV long enough to change the battery?

Then there's resale value, it would be a nightmare trying to sell an EV with a battery lease in Ireland.

Lastly, regardless of mileage, what about long term cost? Surely the cheaper purchase cost of the vehicle is completely blown out of the water after 6,7...10 years of battery lease payments?

ei9go

Deleted User wrote: »

Another example, this time driving 10,500 miles a year.

106 PM x 36 payments = € 3,816 over 3 years. Excluding electricity of course.

I really wish I had Irish prices because the Leaf is working out more expensive in the U.K.

The Leaf costs 25,632 in the U.K without battery compared to 26,390 in Ireland with the battery excluding dealer charges.

But going by the U.K price the total cost over 3 years would be 29,448 Euro's.

The cost new with battery is 31,882 Euro's. So it's costing you less + you pay less interest because the cost of the car is lower without the battery.

So going by U.K prices it actually costs less to lease the battery than to buy the battery outright over 3 years and 10,500 miles per year.

Doing such little mileage you probably wouldn't need to lease the battery because you shouldn't have lost much range 31,500 miles. you wouldn't notice it.

If you abuse the battery by fast charging excessively or to the point the battery roasts and you intend to keep the leaf a long time then renting the battery makes a lot of sense, why would you want to own something that will degrade ?

Good calculation.

You did forget the most important point.

You never factored in the residual value of the car with and without the leased battery.

Also, this calculation might work for the 1st owner.

Consider the cost of the battery lease to the 2nd or 3rd owner who is buying the car at sub 10k prices.