Zoe/Leaf Battery Rental Figures, Why are The Irish Obsessed with owning Everything ?

ei9go

ei9go wrote: »

Good calculation.

You did forget the most important point.

You never factored in the residual value of the car with and without the leased battery.

Also, this calculation might work for the 1st owner.

Consider the cost of the battery lease to the 2nd or 3rd owner who is buying the car at sub 10k prices.

It's impossible to calculate the value with and without battery rental.

It's down to whether the owner wants to own a degraded battery that they can't replace to one they can.

The car itself will still be pretty good after 100,000 miles.

It would take probably 130,000 miles to reach 70 % capacity unless it's really abused with fast charging.

I don't think they should charge full whack as the battery ages.

The obvious question someone should ask is will I abuse fast charging ? And do I intend keeping the car past 80 k miles, then they should rent the battery.

If you drive 6-10 k miles a year or less then you shouldn't need to rent it.

Over 3-4 years it works out about the same if you buy the car with or without battery.

However if you keep the car 7-10 years and you've to pay pm for the battery over this time then it will work out very expensive.

I'll work that out later and to throw a spanner in the works, compare it to a golf tdi.

ei9go

Thats it exactly.

The point is that the person who pays 3k for the car in 7 years time would not be a candidate for 75 pm battery rental.

I think that what will happen the flex Leaf's being sold in the UK is that they will end up being sold used with the battery rental abandoned.

Incidentally, there are a number of 2011 Peugeot Ions for sale in the UK on autotrader with 2 to 3k miles on them for £8000. I think these were never sold in the first place.

Make a great city car or second car at that price.

beazee

gctest50 wrote: »

Mining and transporting the metals for batteries for electric cars is a bit rough too

CO2 emissions all the way from the well to wheels:
Current US gasoline extracting method - top line (430 gCO2/mile)
US Electricity - BEV100 Renewable - in orange - for energy conscious EV owners (~5 gCO2/mile)


Amt of petrol used (BTU/mile) all the way from the well to wheels:
top line - current gas guzzler (4510 BTU/mile)
BEV (21-24 BTU/mile)


Source: http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/13005_well_to_wheels_ghg_oil_ldvs.pdf

@55

OK , I worked out that 5 years and 100K miles = 10,500 Euro's for rental including excess.

The cost of the Leaf is about 28 K out the door with the battery in Ireland and in the U.K the cost is about 6K less without the battery so say the cost of the car is 21K that means the total after 5 years 100K miles = 31.5K or 33,180 with interest.

Over 100K miles based on the EPA rating of 28 Kwh/100 miles for the current model electricity will cost @ night rate, €2500.

Total cost 34,000.

A 1.6 TDI DSG Golf High spec will cost 29,500 but the Leaf comes with a few K worth of extra kit, for instance full climate control costs over 800 on the Golf, parking heater would cost another 1500 Euro's if it were available in Ireland. Rear parking camera 250. LED tail lights 400 Euro's, standard on Leaf. Xenon lights 1500 Euro's, led headlights included in the high spec Leaf.

So already you're talking 4,000 worth of extra kit in the Leaf and it costs about 2000-2500 cheaper than the Golf.

The cost do drive the Golf over 100,000 miles @55 mpg average per tank, some will get less some more = 11,901 Euro's. +29,500 K price =41,104 Euro's.

"Servicing" will cost 100 in the Leaf every 20K miles, for inspections. Cost 200 in the Golf every 10,000 miles ? so the golf will cost 1500 extra for servicing add in a timing belt an extra 450 euro's 1,450. The Golf will go through more brakes, pads.

All this doesn't include interest on a loan which will be less on a leased battery as the cost to buy is about 6K less.

Currently interest is 3.9% for the Golf and 8% for the Leaf, so on 29,500 Golf = 30,650

On the Leaf 21K +8% = 22,680


The Golf works out 7,924 more expensive to do 100,000 miles over 5 years, this is excluding extra maintenance.

So does the battery leasing still sound like such a bad idea ?

Of course the figures will vary once we have proper Irish lease prices and the cost with/without the battery for Zoe, Nissan Ireland do not offer battery leasing, however Nissan offer it so I can't not imaging Nissan Ireland not offering it if you want.

The only other thing is that in order to get a new battery it will have to loose 30% capacity so that would mean a worst case 60 miles turns into 49 miles, still more than enough for most commutes with charging available at work or fast charging.

Lads please keep this on topic about battery leasing. Thanks.

beazee

Deleted User wrote: »

in the case of the Leaf the car actually costs 6,860 Euro's without the battery in the U.K.

I'm sold! Where do I get one?

The complete Nissan leaf battery pack system 24kwhr is about $6500 total including warranty.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/nissan-leaf-lithium-battery-pack-system-94283.html

Half the battery (24 of 48 modules) to be had for $2,500:
http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/index.php?option=com_hikashop&ctrl=product&task=show&cid=4&name=new-11kw-h-battery-block-182v-60ah&Itemid=605

Then I could have LEAF with a new battery for ~€12,000 and no extra monthly battery rental! That's a deal!

Question is why are people so obsessed about battery failing after 100,000 miles or so? Can't see this being an issue with me. I'm quite confident in what's offered on the market.

beazee

beazee wrote: »

I'm sold! Where do I get one?


http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/nissan-leaf-lithium-battery-pack-system-94283.html

Then I could have LEAF with a new battery for ~€12,000 and no extra monthly battery rental! That's a deal!

Question is why are people so obsessed about battery failing after 100,000 miles or so? Can't see this being an issue with me. I'm quite confident in what's offered on the market.

The battery will not fail but degrade slowly over 5-10 years depending on mileage.

They will probably be some thing in the contract that the car can't be sold on without the battery ? how that would work is anyone's guess.

I still say they should offer the option to buy a new battery whenever you wand without leasing. This means owners of the MK 1.5 Leaf could install a brand new battery once the old one becomes useless.

beazee

Deleted User wrote: »

I still say they should offer the option to buy a new battery (...) This means owners of the MK 1.5 Leaf could install a brand new battery once the old one becomes useless.

But as you said - they still have 5-10 years to come up with the offer:

Deleted User wrote: »

The battery will not fail but degrade slowly over 5-10 years depending on mileage.

beazee

beazee wrote: »

But as you said - they still have 5-10 years to come up with the offer:

5 years is only 2 years left for someone who bought a leaf in 2011.

If they do 20 k miles a year.

100K miles could come up in another 2 years for some.

I still doubt at 100 K miles that you'd loose 30% battery capacity.

I think the industry standard of 70% is too low on a 75 mile range car to begin with, with an 85 Kwh Model S 70% would still give you a real 175 miles range.

Dexter1979

Thanks for the calculations. I guess it does make sense for some people.

The actual car will be pretty good after 5 years. What would you check in a 5 year second hand car? The engine, mostly. In an EV this is not the case. You'd check the battery health. With a battery lease this is a non-issue as you know it will be replaced if it's faulty, degrades or (perhaps) they bring a better model on the market that doubles the range.

Time will tell. The batteries in the Leaf are holding up pretty well for most people.

Dexter1979

Dexter1979 wrote: »

Thanks for the calculations. I guess it does make sense for some people.

The actual car will be pretty good after 5 years. What would you check in a 5 year second hand car? The engine, mostly. In an EV this is not the case. You'd check the battery health. With a battery lease this is a non-issue as you know it will be replaced if it's faulty, degrades or (perhaps) they bring a better model on the market that doubles the range.

Time will tell. The batteries in the Leaf are holding up pretty well for most people.

Battery lease would suit higher mileage drivers and for those who will find themselves addicted to fast charging.

Leasing eliminates the risks, why would you want to own something you know will degrade.

If you do low enough miles leasing works out cheaper, and I didn't calculate the savings on interest due to the lower price of the car.

Of course we're still waiting on irish Zoe rental prices.

Nissan Ireland don't offer it, but I'm sure they will if you insist.

Leasing the whole car makes sense too if you don't intent to keep It more than 3 years.

In 3 years you won't likely need a new battery anyway.

It's unlikely there will be a higher capacity battery for the leaf until the MK II comes in 2017/18

Dexter1979

Deleted User wrote: »

It's unlikely there will be a higher capacity battery for the leaf until the MK II comes in 2017/18

I also doubt that Nissan would be able to retrofit the battery of the MK II in the Mk I.x.

I like the Zoe as a car and your calculations make sense. I don't need a larger EV like the Leaf. I am finding it hard to justify the costs of a new Zoe with battery lease against a used Leaf from the UK at around €12k. This would screw up the calculations a bit

Dexter1979

Dexter1979 wrote: »

I also doubt that Nissan would be able to retrofit the battery of the MK II in the Mk I.x.

I like the Zoe as a car and your calculations make sense. I don't need a larger EV like the Leaf. I am finding it hard to justify the costs of a new Zoe with battery lease against a used Leaf from the UK at around €12k. This would screw up the calculations a bit

No Nissan won't offer a higher capacity battery for the current model Leaf, it would be possible but too expensive, + all the battery electrics would need to be changed.

Buying a 2nd hand Leaf makes a lot of sense, but it might be worth while hanging on and getting one already imported to Ireland for about 13-15K Euro's.

It's a lot of hassle making 2 trips to see car, pay deposit, then transfer money then go back and bring it home, praying you'll make it to the ferry on time.

I'd pay 16-17 K for a high spec MK 1.5 Irish leaf with 6.6 Kw charger, but dealers in Ireland won't add the more powerful charger the bloody muppets.

I'd probably pay a few K more to buy it in Ireland and save myself the hassle of making 2 trips to the U.K which will cost + ferry.

You got to install the home evse also.

The thing about Zoe is you can replace the battery, you can't replace the one in the Leaf, Nissan U.S.A now offer a brand new battery for about 5.5K USD. but you might as well rent it at that rate.

There are not many fast a/c chargers for zoe, this is where the Leaf wins imo.

The I3 would be a lot of fun but again, CCS chargers are few.

Dexter1979

Most DC fast chargers along the motor ways in Ireland also have a 43kW AC port. Newer ones have the CCS as well (three plugs). Often when a DC port has a problem the AC side is fine. Really strange. Nissan dealers only have the DC. Zoe would be just fine with the current infrastructure in Ireland. UK is brilliant as well.

ted1

When comparing costs you need to consider the true costs.
In all your figures you forgot to include owners time. That is the extra time required to charge the car on journeys with a distance over 60 miles. Anyone doing 20k a year will more than likely be doing trips like dublin to cork.

My hourly rate is 95 euro an hour if I have to stop off in a service station for 30 mins each way to get a top up. Then the trip is costing an extra 95 euro.

Ted my previous commutes were 20 k miles a year and more just to get to work and back. That was without traveling Dublin to Cork.

Now where I am it's just less than half that, for a few months at least.

A leaf could easily do 20 k miles a year and more with fast charging and work charging.

I'm sure nobody would have trouble getting a loan of an ice for the times an ev won't work, I'm sure someone would gladly drive the ev for a few days.

Remember the leaf could have twice the range or almost if they used a Tesla battery, or almost 4 times the range with the model s 85 kWh, though it is a bigger car, it does show the limitations are mainly cost and not ev tech.

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ted my previous commutes were 20 k miles a year and more just to get to work and back. That was without traveling Dublin to Cork.

Now where I am it's just less than half that, for a few months at least.

A leaf could easily do 20 k miles a year and more with fast charging and work charging.

I'm sure nobody would have trouble getting a loan of an ice for the times an ev won't work, I'm sure someone would gladly drive the ev for a few days.

Remember the leaf could have twice the range or almost if they used a Tesla battery, or almost 4 times the range with the model s 85 kWh, though it is a bigger car, it does show the limitations are mainly cost and not ev tech.

Huge fan of tesla, unfortunately my driving pattern would rule out every other EV on the market.

Also needing to borrow a car to go on journeys sounds like an awful lot of hassle and is a clear indication that you ( not specifically you )invested a large amount it money in a product that is not up to doing the job.

KrustyBurger

ted1 wrote: »

Huge fan of tesla, unfortunately my driving pattern would rule out every other EV on the market.

Also needing to borrow a car to go on journeys sounds like an awful lot of hassle and is a clear indication that you ( not specifically you )invested a large amount it money in a product that is not up to doing the job.

It depends.

If the EV is perfectly suited to most of your driving (you decide the %) then borrowing/renting an ice car could make perfect sense. That's where I'm at. An EV would be perfect for 99% of my driving. The other 1% is every 6 weeks for a week-end down the country. Would I mind borrowing/leasing a car for that 1%. No problem! It won't suit everyone though. Re the costs: the fuel savings would make a large dent in those.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

Huge fan of tesla, unfortunately my driving pattern would rule out every other EV on the market.

Also needing to borrow a car to go on journeys sounds like an awful lot of hassle and is a clear indication that you ( not specifically you )invested a large amount it money in a product that is not up to doing the job.

Borrowing a car for me would be no problem, I had to do it before we got the crv.

Now that we have two cars it wouldn't be a problem.

I don't know what to say to you if the 250-280 mile model s range isn't enough with 200 mile top up in 30 mins.

I certainly wouldn't like to see your fuel bills.

Dexter1979

KrustyBurger wrote: »

The other 1% is every 6 weeks for a week-end down the country. Would I mind borrowing/leasing a car for that 1%.

You go somewhere without electricity? Get a granny cable and take the Leaf. Even camp sites have electricity.

If you get one with a 6.6kW AC charger than you should be able to take that anywhere in the country, within reason. I would only need to plan if I were to go abroad. Then charge cards and plugs (France) could be an issue.

KrustyBurger

Dexter1979 wrote: »

You go somewhere without electricity? Get a granny cable and take the Leaf. Even camp sites have electricity.

If you get one with a 6.6kW AC charger than you should be able to take that anywhere in the country, within reason. I would only need to plan if I were to go abroad. Then charge cards and plugs (France) could be an issue.

It's the time it takes to get there. The 2 places I go to are 160 miles away on opposite ends of the country so I'd have to charge twice for those journeys. Not that that's a big deal. People will say it's another hour onto the journey but what's the rush? It's not for work so I wouldn't really care.

ted1

KrustyBurger wrote: »

It's the time it takes to get there. The 2 places I go to are 160 miles away on opposite ends of the country so I'd have to charge twice for those journeys. Not that that's a big deal. People will say it's another hour onto the journey but what's the rush? It's not for work so I wouldn't really care.

1 hour providing that the charging plugs are not in use or are not out of order or that no one has parked there

Lutecia

ted1 wrote: »

When comparing costs you need to consider the true costs.
In all your figures you forgot to include owners time. That is the extra time required to charge the car on journeys with a distance over 60 miles. Anyone doing 20k a year will more than likely be doing trips like dublin to cork.

My hourly rate is 95 euro an hour if I have to stop off in a service station for 30 mins each way to get a top up. Then the trip is costing an extra 95 euro.

You're right there, but these 30 minutes can be used for something productive.
I eat (most service stations with FCPs are well sorted) , work on my emails and go on ... boards.ie etc. Things I would do at home anyway so not really a waste of time.
And then it brings you the benefits of driving relaxed. A break every hour is really nice for the body. And that you can't make direct €€€ calculation on savings.
It just requires few adjustements in your life but at the end and with some organization, not really a waste of time.

Dexter1979

Lutecia wrote: »

And then it brings you the benefits of driving relaxed. A break every hour is really nice for the body. And that you can't make direct €€€ calculation on savings.
It just requires few adjustements in your life but at the end and with some organization, not really a waste of time.

This is what I would do. I prefer to stop every hour - hour and a half anyway. You arrive at your destination far less tired.

Dexter1979

And I found the Irish brochure for the Renault Zoe. Got the link by asking Renault Ireland on Facebook. The prices of the battery rental are listed in it.

They are as follows:

For each year it's 12500 - 15000 - 17500 - 20000 kilometers

12 months: 99 - 106 - 114 - 122
24 months: 89 - 96 - 104 - 112
36 months: 79 - 86 - 94 - 102

I can't link the brochure but can pm it to anybody who can post URLs

ted1

Dexter1979 wrote: »

This is what I would do. I prefer to stop every hour - hour and a half anyway. You arrive at your destination far less tired.

Sorry but for anybody trying to run a buisness or even conduct buisness but those breaks are unacceptable.

Dexter1979

Good thing then that I don't run or conduct business on the road

EV's don't suit everybody, this is very true. So if it doesn't suit you then don't get one. Or maybe keep a ICE for the business related journeys.

Leasing the battery means all risks associated with owning a battery do not apply.

Why on earth would anyone want to own a battery they know will degrade ? And in the case of the leaf why would anyone want to own a battery they can't even replace ???

Leasing means you pay less interest as 5-6k less will be on the purchase price of the car.

Leasing the battery means you pay the same regardless, people think that the battery lease costs extra, it doesn't because the so called extra per month will be added to the loan it's not something extra at all, why can't people get their head around this whole battery leasing thing ?

In fact if you do your maths right for low mileage drivers it could actually work out cheaper over all than buying the car with the battery.

Another thing to be aware of is each electric car will have a different battery chemistry of some sort so the e golf battery might last longer than the leaf, the Zoe might last longer than them all etc etc, leasing eliminates the risks, the what it's !

Dexter1979

Deleted User wrote: »

Another thing to be aware of is each electric car will have a different battery chemistry of some sort so the e golf battery might last longer than the leaf, the Zoe might last longer than them all etc etc,

I would actually love to know if Renault think it'll outlast the Leaf. I wonder if AC charging only is less harmfull for the battery? They don't seem to be worried about high temperatures on the battery with the Zoe as they were with the Leaf DC charging.

Dexter1979

Dexter1979 wrote: »

I would actually love to know if Renault think it'll outlast the Leaf. I wonder if AC charging only is less harmfull for the battery? They don't seem to be worried about high temperatures on the battery with the Zoe as they were with the Leaf DC charging.

Well, charging at a lower rate is always better. Their is no official data released from NEC for the Leaf cells to know how charging may or may not effect the leaf.

Heat is the greatest enemy and the Leaf's battery is the most sensitive of all to heat.

Zoe's battery may very well last longer and it may not, fast charging Zoe multiple times daily may very well degrade it, and it may not, again there is no data.

This is why leasing eliminates all the risks and what if's. I personally would lease the battery no problem and if I was a 2nd hand buyer I'd be even more keen to lease as again, I wouldn't have to worry about what condition the battery is in, I wouldn't worry about what abuse the previous owner put it through.