The government is to approve plans to make it illegal for 16-year-olds to get married

Sunnyisland

The government is to approve plans to make it illegal for 16-year-olds to get married.

The Seanad is to vote in favour of a plan which will stop anyone under the age of 18 being able to marry in a bid to clamp down on forced marriages.

Currently it is possible to get married at age 16 or 17, but only if the child goes to court to prove they have parental approval.

Independent Senator Jillian van Turnhout says no child should be allowed to get married - irrespective of the circumstances.

She believes Ireland needs to act as a world leader in stopping arranged marriages.

http://www.newstalk.ie/Government-to-approve-plans-to-raise-Irish-marriage-age-to-18


Never knew you could get married that young, albeit with court approval,maybe it might be better to increase the age to get married till your 25 ?

What you think AH ? Higher or lower

Davei141

Pavee Point will be claiming it is an attack on traveler culture i reckon.

Sunnyisland

BTW I was married when I was twenty, it lasted eight years, in hindsight I was to immature for the responsibility of it, it be my opinion that it's best to live together for a while before taking that huge step forward to commitment etc etc.

Oink

I agree, except the 25y.o part. I think it's 18 or nothing. You cant tell someone they're old enough to die for their country at 18, but not mature enough to get in say a pub before 21, and get married before 25. If that was me I'd be seriously pissed off.

No Pants

I think it should be 18. I hadn't even done my leaving at 16, there's no way I could take on a marriage responsibility at that time.

I got married at 35. My outlook on life is completely different now.

Skeleton XIII

I think it's insanity to get married before your mind has fully developed, which is around your mid twenties for most people. I wouldn't trust my pre-25 year old self with anything let alone a massive life decision like that. I'd have the same opinion when it comes to kids.

Phoebas

Davei141 wrote: »

Pavee Point will be claiming it is an attack on traveler culture i reckon.

Paved point have unequivocally welcomed this measure.

Hootanany

They should just outlaw arranged marriages

Teyla Emmagan

Insane to me that you can get married before 18 in the first place. Children should not be getting married. The existing law leaves them open to all kinds of force and exploitation.

I am all for this change.

Witcher

Phoebas wrote: »

Paved point have unequivocally welcomed this measure.

Well Paved Point are a very forward thinking and progressive group but it's Pavee Point we're considering here:pac:

But seriously, under 18's shouldn't be getting married.

'Drink at 16? Fcuk off...you can have a marriage licence though'

Jester252

Lets be honest the seanad vote does nothing. I think the vote is only for them to propose the bill to the Dail.

jellyboy

How is this Law got anything to do with travelers?
or any other minority or indeed their advocates?

mountain and molehill come to mind


This law was enacted back in the day when life expectancy was low and having sex resulting in pregnancy led to a trip to the judge(or a mother and baby home)


We haven't moved that far from dowrys to the settled classes,and all that nonsense
as a community we have a lot to ask ourselves

Banjo String

I'd support this.

Absurd that kids are considered mature enough to get married at 16, but not buy an alcoholic drink in a bar.

Good call imo.

DoesNotCompute

Makes sense.

Sure what's the legal age of consent in Ireland? If two 16 year olds get married and they consummate the marriage wouldn't that technically be statutory rape? Seems insane to allow kids to marry, and expect them not to consummate the marriage until they turn 18 (or whatever the legal age of consent is)

17

Pro Hoc Vice

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Makes sense.

Sure what's the legal age of consent in Ireland? If two 16 year olds get married and they consummate the marriage wouldn't that technically be statutory rape? Seems insane to allow kids to marry, and expect them not to consummate the marriage until they turn 18 (or whatever the legal age of consent is)

It's not statutory rape, as it's not unlawful carnal knowledge or defilement in that the persons are married.

username123

How many marriages happen in Ireland where one marriage partner is below 18?

This type of law is nonsensical unless all surrounding countries follow suit. Can't marry at 16 in Ireland? No problem, hop across to Gretna Green where it's still legal to marry at 16 without parental consent.

folan

how many marriages were there in 2010 where one or more of the parties was under 18?

folan

jellyboy wrote: »

This law was enacted back in the day when life expectancy was low and having sex resulting in pregnancy led to a trip to the judge(or a mother and baby home)

its a part of the Family Law Act 1995

Dixie Chick

Does this include yours cousins as well though???

Buzz Killington the third

jellyboy wrote: »

How is this Law got anything to do with travelers?

have you seen my big fat gypsy wedding, and the ages of some of the girls that get married?

jellyboy wrote: »

or any other minority or indeed their advocates?

Forced marriages.

The_Minister

I could be wrong, but doesn't the same politician support reducing the voting age to 16?

o1s1n

username123 wrote: »

How many marriages happen in Ireland where one marriage partner is below 18?

This type of law is nonsensical unless all surrounding countries follow suit. Can't marry at 16 in Ireland? No problem, hop across to Gretna Green where it's still legal to marry at 16 without parental consent.

Bit of a silly argument really. In that case no country should have any specific law as you could just go to the next country and break it.

By putting a barrier in the way (in the case of your example, the sea) then you are stopping a large % of people from doing it. Sure, a few may travel, but most probably won't.

conorhal

folan wrote: »

how many marriages were there in 2010 where one or more of the parties was under 18?

Even if it's only one, it's one to many when the law allowed a dusgusting case like this occur:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/high-court-annuls-marriage-between-egyptian-girl-16-and-husband-29-29354198.html


"The marriage between the couple, who are both of the Islamic faith, was declared null and void after gardai and others raised concerns that the teen was the subject of a marriage against her will.
R, the young girl, had very little contact with her future husband and was very apprehensive about the marriage, the High Court heard this morning.
The young girl did not wish to marry at all, but the High Court said that her parents's wishes took precedence over their daughter's.
The young girl ran away after her purported marriage ceremony in September 2010, prompting the HSE to seek care orders for the teen who is no longer living in Ireland.
R left Ireland despite a court order restraining her removal out of the country."

folan

conorhal wrote: »

Even if it's only one, it's one to many when the law allowed a dusgusting case like this occur:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/high-court-annuls-marriage-between-egyptian-girl-16-and-husband-29-29354198.html


"The marriage between the couple, who are both of the Islamic faith, was declared null and void after gardai and others raised concerns that the teen was the subject of a marriage against her will.
R, the young girl, had very little contact with her future husband and was very apprehensive about the marriage, the High Court heard this morning.
The young girl did not wish to marry at all, but the High Court said that her parents's wishes took precedence over their daughter's.
The young girl ran away after her purported marriage ceremony in September 2010, prompting the HSE to seek care orders for the teen who is no longer living in Ireland.
R left Ireland despite a court order restraining her removal out of the country."

im unclear from the above, did the girl marry the man against her will? regardless of age, forced marriages should be, and i believe are, illegal. What i would wonder is that why a marriage is allowed for someone under 18 with NO private interviews, no reporting to the gardai etc.

my issue isnt that theres a tiny number, my issue is that such a tiny number isnt being investigated properly by relevant authorities.

Buzz Killington the third

folan wrote: »

What i would wonder is that why a marriage is allowed for someone under 18 with NO private interviews, no reporting to the gardai etc.

my issue isnt that theres a tiny number, my issue is that such a tiny number isnt being investigated properly by relevant authorities.

I'm guessing that these marriages aren't even legal or reported for state records. From what I can gather, they're really only religious extremists who practice this sort of thing and as such the marriage is conducted as a religious ceremony which they believe is above the law. I'm open to correction though.

folan

Buzz Killington the third wrote: »

I'm guessing that these marriages aren't even legal or reported for state records. From what I can gather, they're really only religious extremists who practice this sort of thing and as such the marriage is conducted as a religious ceremony which they believe is above the law. I'm open to correction though.

i'd assume that you are wrong in one sense (this thread would be about making unrecognised and potentially illegal marriages illegal), but have hit a far more important issue. I would also argue that these abuses are not only by religious extremists but also those who believe their culture is above the law (though the two are often hand in hand). Such groups will often ignore the state limits on age too.
however, i have nothing to back that up with, and is only a personal opinion

Permabear

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Buzz Killington the third

Permabear wrote: »

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Does this law still apply in cases of arranged marriage?

username123

o1s1n wrote: »

Bit of a silly argument really. In that case no country should have any specific law as you could just go to the next country and break it.

By putting a barrier in the way (in the case of your example, the sea) then you are stopping a large % of people from doing it. Sure, a few may travel, but most probably won't.

The particular culture in this country who practice marriage with very young girls DO travel, that's the whole point.

Of course countries should have specific laws, but unless there is practical application then it just becomes a case of exporting a problem to the UK, abortion being a case in point. Do you really think that only a few women who want an abortion travel? The numbers would suggest otherwise.

In the case of young marriages, usually the parents are the driving force, so of course they will travel. Of course, people who engage in these practices do so under religious law and don't really care what state laws say anyway.

There was a priest in the UK who openly stated he married traveller girls under 16. They sorted the legals in a registry office after they were 16, but as far as they were concerned they were married in the eyes of god at 14 or 15 years of age. Very difficult to prosecute that as religious marriage rite has no legal standing.

Guy:Incognito

Hootanany wrote: »

They should just outlaw arranged marriages

And murder. Ban that too before it gets out of control and people get killed.

iDave

Imagine being married at 16. Not being served drink at my own wedding for being too young.

On the one hand I don't think they should be getting married at that age but on the other hand I'm not sure how this is helpful.
Is there nothing they can do already to intervene if children are being married in arranged marriages ie coerced?

conorhal

folan wrote: »

im unclear from the above, did the girl marry the man against her will? regardless of age, forced marriages should be, and i believe are, illegal. What i would wonder is that why a marriage is allowed for someone under 18 with NO private interviews, no reporting to the gardai etc.

my issue isnt that theres a tiny number, my issue is that such a tiny number isnt being investigated properly by relevant authorities.

I fully agree with you, but you know how we do regulation in this country.
It's better that the law applies uniformly to all and there are no exemptions, because be it tax or marriage, we create far to many opportunities through exemptions for people to drive a coach and four through the law.
She was 16 and forced into a marriage to a 24yr old but she ran away and was put into state care, unfortunately her parents spirited her out of the state and back to Egypt.
It is bizarre that parents are allowed to apply to the court for a marriage license but nobody bothered to ask the girl if she consented to this.

Permabear

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folan

conorhal wrote: »

I fully agree with you, but you know how we do regulation in this country.
It's better that the law applies uniformly to all and there are no exemptions, because be it tax or marriage, we create far to many opportunities through exemptions for people to drive a coach and four through the law.
She was 16 and forced into a marriage to a 24yr old but she ran away and was put into state care, unfortunately her parents spirited her out of the state and back to Egypt.
It is bizarre that parents are allowed to apply to the court for a marriage license but nobody bothered to ask the girl if she consented to this.

thats what happened? but it makes no sense? how can the parents, who got the marriage license that the girl told the state was arranged and unwanted, get their daughter back from the state.

i dont agree that making it illegal for 16 year olds to marry will stop this kind of abuse, but christ, how can we as a nation **** this part up?

folan

Permabear wrote: »

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the problem is further than that too. Any girl, without the availability of proper support from legal and state support agencies, can be bullied into an arranged marriage by parents (or others).

while we should be doing our utmost to help young people, we have to get better at battling the source of the problem too. how thats done though, I cant say

conorhal

folan wrote: »

thats what happened? but it makes no sense? how can the parents, who got the marriage license that the girl told the state was arranged and unwanted, get their daughter back from the state.

i dont agree that making it illegal for 16 year olds to marry will stop this kind of abuse, but christ, how can we as a nation **** this part up?

State care isn't locking you up in mountjoy. I believe she went home to see her parents and they intimidated her and sent her packing back to her 'husband' in Egypt. It's hard for a 16yr old brought up in a culture that beedds obedience into women to stand up for themselves.

Permabear

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folan

conorhal wrote: »

State care isn't locking you up in mountjoy. I believe she went home to see her parents and they intimidated her and sent her packing back to her 'husband' in Egypt. It's hard for a 16yr old brought up in a culture that beedds obedience into women to stand up for themselves.

i understand, i would have thought though that any visits would have to be monitored in such a circumstance. That's what I'm getting at.

Permabear

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Buzz Killington the third

Permabear wrote: »

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I'd love to know if it would hold up in a case where the girl later states duress to get the marriage annulled or if she'd have to go through the usual 4yr wait for a divorce.

Permabear

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Buzz Killington the third

Permabear wrote: »

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I know, but if the girl stated at 16 that she wanted to get married and consent was given (after being bullied into it). Would she be able to claim duress at 18 to annul the marriage? Like would the court accept that or would they say "No, you gave consent etc so if you want out, then file for divorce"

Permabear

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wes

If the intent of the legislation is to stop forced marriage, then it will be useless. Surely, making laws similar to UK ones against forced marriage would make a lot more sense.

titan18

Don't really see why it's the government's business what age people get married.

folan

titan18 wrote: »

Don't really see why it's the government's business what age people get married.

various things, such as child protection.

Permabear

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Umadbrah?

Good

Why would a 16 year old want to get married?

Umadbrah?

Oink wrote: »

I agree, except the 25y.o part. I think it's 18 or nothing. You cant tell someone they're old enough to die for their country at 18, but not mature enough to get in say a pub before 21, and get married before 25. If that was me I'd be seriously pissed off.

I'm pretty sure you can join the army at 16 or 17..no?