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State of Irish Golf Membership
Comments
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What attitude?
Its a fact, you need to be proposed and seconded to join my club as any category of member, including pavilion.
My club is in the lucky position of being able to choose who to accept and who not to accept, other than feeling hard done by that you didnt get in, what possible issue can you have with that fact?
I'm sure we do have fantastic golfer or people who woulnt get a chance to join, but to be frank...so what? There are thousands of peasant farmers who are probably naturally gifted pole-vaulters or FX traders...the world keeps turning all the same.
Why were you reluctant to play in Grange, exactly?
I'd be very interested to know.
Having to know someone in a club isn't the ideal way if get in new members. Its not the ideal criteria to make a better club.
So it's better to get in someone in their 60s who knows a member but is a sh*t golfer rather than an exceptional golfer who is new to the area, who has plenty of money and who has kids who play golf.
I was reluctant to play as I believe it to be a place where your only welcome if you already know a member, which is sort if the way it is. Perhaps it's very welcoming. I suppose you put me off it also with the nature if your posts. However I suppose I shouldn't let that cloud my judgement.0 -
Having to know someone in a club isn't the ideal way if get in new members. Its not the ideal criteria to make a better club.
So it's better to get in someone in their 60s who knows a member but is a sh*t golfer rather than an exceptional golfer who is new to the area, who has plenty of money and who has kids who play golf.
I was reluctant to play as I believe it to be a place where your only welcome if you already know a member, which is sort if the way it is. Perhaps it's very welcoming. I suppose you put me off it also with the nature if your posts. However I suppose I shouldn't let that cloud my judgement.
But it's a private club so it's their rules? I'm not trying to defend (the) Grange golf club but if its in their constitution to have proposers and seconder then what's the issue?0 -
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A members club is specifically not a business though. Its a club. Its doesnt make a profit or loss it has income and expenditure.
Semantics - it's results that count in the survival stakes - not pedantic labels. Golf club employees, suppliers and bankers don't care what you call it - they just want to be paid. And golf club members don't care either, they just want value for money!
To quote Dickens:
“My other piece of advice, Copperfield,” said Mr. Micawber, “you know. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery".Flying got a lot cheaper, making it cheaper and more accessible to all, you can buy more capacity in the airline business when you need it.
Unless you are a well-heeled club with large membership and surpluses, the capacity issue is a non sequitur for most clubs, who have oceans of unsold spare capacity that they would love to fill on a paid basis. There's no point assuming all clubs have full time-sheets and healthy balance sheets, like those close to Dublin city centre - it's simply not the case.Maintaining a golf course hasnt gotten any cheaper in real terms and you have a fixed capacity for the numbers of people you can support.
Everyone knows this blindingly obvious fact! The real issue, however, for clubs with financial problems, is the need to increase their golfer throughput to bring unit costs down. We're not all awash with cash like Castle, Grange, The Island, Royal Dublin, so why keep pretending we are?
And the published research shows that not all potential golfers have lots of spare time and cash to spend for the privilege of playing golf in well-off clubs in urban areas!0 -
You can add Killenbeg Golf Club, Dundalk, to that list. Closed a month ago.0
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Having to know someone in a club isn't the ideal way if get in new members. Its not the ideal criteria to make a better club.
So it's better to get in someone in their 60s who knows a member but is a sh*t golfer rather than an exceptional golfer who is new to the area, who has plenty of money and who has kids who play golf.
I was reluctant to play as I believe it to be a place where your only welcome if you already know a member, which is sort if the way it is. Perhaps it's very welcoming. I suppose you put me off it also with the nature if your posts. However I suppose I shouldn't let that cloud my judgement.
It's exactly the ideal way to get new members actually.
We seldom have any empty spaces, even in The current climate, so how can you say it's not ideal? The club is surviving quite nicely for the last 104 years...
What makes a club better than any other in your mind?
Frankly yes it's better to get someone you know will fit in. Who cares how good they are at golf? You think a club would be great if it only let in great golfers?
If you didn't play it then you lost out tbh.0 -
golfwallah wrote: »Semantics - it's results that count in the survival stakes - not pedantic labels. Golf club employees, suppliers and bankers don't care what you call it - they just want to be paid. And golf club members don't care either, they just want value for money!
To quote Dickens:
“My other piece of advice, Copperfield,” said Mr. Micawber, “you know. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery".
Unless you are a well-heeled club with large membership and surpluses, the capacity issue is a non sequitur for most clubs, who have oceans of unsold spare capacity that they would love to fill on a paid basis. There's no point assuming all clubs have full time-sheets and healthy balance sheets, like those close to Dublin city centre - it's simply not the case.
Everyone knows this blindingly obvious fact! The real issue, however, for clubs with financial problems, is the need to increase their golfer throughput to bring unit costs down. We're not all awash with cash like Castle, Grange, The Island, Royal Dublin, so why keep pretending we are?
And the published research shows that not all potential golfers have lots of spare time and cash to spend for the privilege of playing golf in well-off clubs in urban areas!
You keep going back to well heeled golf clubs yet my point is nothing to do with them.
You also keep saying that clubs need to increase their throughout...this is not possible for all clubs to do...there aren't enough golfers to make it possible. Ignoring this is ignoring reality.0 -
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You keep going back to well heeled golf clubs yet my point is nothing to do with them.
You also keep saying that clubs need to increase their throughout...this is not possible for all clubs to do...there aren't enough golfers to make it possible. Ignoring this is ignoring reality.
My argument is all about the ability of many clubs to increase revenue through better usage of available course capacity, that is, if they really want to.
Your argument is that
I agree that it is not possible for all clubs, as a relatively small number of high end clubs already have a high usage of available time slots. The whole point is that the vast majority have only medium to low levels of paying customers on their courses (i.e. excluding the “well-heeled” ones that are satisfied with the numbers using their courses).this is not possible for all clubs to do
Based on time sheet usage at our club, I would estimate that a typical club within a few miles of major conurbations would have the following rates of usage:
• Clubs with 2 weekend competitions only = 28%
• Clubs with 2 weekend comps and 2 mid-week opens = 42%
This leaves a lot of empty time-slots, available to be sold – and like airline seats these can’t be stored for sale later.
You also say that
but omitted to add “at the same prices being charged now”. Research shows there are enough people playing casual golf, who would switch to membership if suitable membership offerings were made available.there aren’t enough golfers to make it possible
The trick for clubs that need the extra cash is to fill the unused time-slots with more people at prices they are willing to pay.
It’s not rocket science. The airlines have clearly demonstrated the economic viability of high load factors. The way they do this is through variable pricing – not everyone pays the same but, then again, not everyone can travel at precisely the times they want. Plus they can pay premium prices for higher service levels.
The same principles apply to golf clubs (and some are already implementing this approach quite successfully already) – but I don’t really expect to convince everybody, particularly those who are members of one of the better off, exclusive type clubs. There is a way for other clubs to do it, if those in leadership roles take the time & effort to explain the issues, develop alternatives and bring a majority of their members along with them.0 -
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Here in the Mid- West there are at 12 clubs within 30 minutes of me. My sub is just shy of 1200 a year, I use the course alot so it works out ok, however the course is very busy, its a great course, but the maintenance costs for it must be massive, there are 10 lads working on it at any one time. I go to other courses nearby , I might see 1 lad in a tractor doing it all, there sub is 600 per year ? plus free gym membership
I would rather pay the 600 being honest.
There is a nasty shock coming the down the line, where lots of courses will close, aging memberships, even with no levy costs now, there are few young adults joining clubs.
The lost cost- Low maintenance clubs will be ok, But in my own club house that costs a fortune to run, a bar that does not make money, which is subsidised by members..likewise the pro shop-
The best low cost operation I have seen was down in Cobh golf Club... Place was jammers.. one big portacabin as a clubhouse...and they have a restaurant in it.. they were all eating in there, reason being it was very well priced, lunchs for 5- 6 euro,
Roscrea built a clubhouse that cost them a million... Lovely little course..but that is some money for them to pay back.0 -
the greatest game wrote: »There is a nasty shock coming the down the line, where lots of courses will close, aging memberships, even with no levy costs now, there are few young adults joining clubs.
The lost cost- Low maintenance clubs will be ok, But in my own club house that costs a fortune to run, a bar that does not make money, which is subsidised by members..likewise the pro shop-
The best low cost operation I have seen was down in Cobh golf Club... Place was jammers.. one big portacabin as a clubhouse...and they have a restaurant in it.. they were all eating in there, reason being it was very well priced, lunchs for 5- 6 euro,
Roscrea built a clubhouse that cost them a million... Lovely little course..but that is some money for them to pay back.
Quite! When cheap credit was available, it was easy to spend money on clubhouses and propping up occasional losses.
Those days are gone and clubs are finding it a lot harder to replace revenue losses. Cost cutting only goes so far - so new means of raising revenues are needed to survive.
Clubs are finding that the old business model is no longer working. As I see it, membership prices and the availability of affordable membership offerings to attract people with less time / money (a large market segment) are part of the solution.
That is, unless other people have further ideas as to how to bridge the lost revenue gap.0 -
golfwallah wrote: »My argument is all about the ability of many clubs to increase revenue through better usage of available course capacity, that is, if they really want to.
Your argument is that
I agree that it is not possible for all clubs, as a relatively small number of high end clubs already have a high usage of available time slots. The whole point is that the vast majority have only medium to low levels of paying customers on their courses (i.e. excluding the “well-heeled” ones that are satisfied with the numbers using their courses).
Based on time sheet usage at our club, I would estimate that a typical club within a few miles of major conurbations would have the following rates of usage:
• Clubs with 2 weekend competitions only = 28%
• Clubs with 2 weekend comps and 2 mid-week opens = 42%
This leaves a lot of empty time-slots, available to be sold – and like airline seats these can’t be stored for sale later.
You also say that but omitted to add “at the same prices being charged now”. Research shows there are enough people playing casual golf, who would switch to membership if suitable membership offerings were made available.
The trick for clubs that need the extra cash is to fill the unused time-slots with more people at prices they are willing to pay.
It’s not rocket science. The airlines have clearly demonstrated the economic viability of high load factors. The way they do this is through variable pricing – not everyone pays the same but, then again, not everyone can travel at precisely the times they want. Plus they can pay premium prices for higher service levels.
The same principles apply to golf clubs (and some are already implementing this approach quite successfully already) – but I don’t really expect to convince everybody, particularly those who are members of one of the better off, exclusive type clubs. There is a way for other clubs to do it, if those in leadership roles take the time & effort to explain the issues, develop alternatives and bring a majority of their members along with them.
If you introduce variable pricing and sell off time slots, why on earth would anyone join as a member?
Just become a distance member for 30 quid somewhere and then play for cheap on your local course?
Those non comp times you speak of filling up, surely that's members time?
If the course isn't available most of the time outside of a comp, why become a member
If the course can't fill empty slots with greenfees or societies/outings then I'm not sure what future it has, at least as a members club.0 -
the greatest game wrote: »Here in the Mid- West there are at 12 clubs within 30 minutes of me. My sub is just shy of 1200 a year, I use the course alot so it works out ok, however the course is very busy, its a great course, but the maintenance costs for it must be massive, there are 10 lads working on it at any one time. I go to other courses nearby , I might see 1 lad in a tractor doing it all, there sub is 600 per year ? plus free gym membership
I would rather pay the 600 being honest.
There is a nasty shock coming the down the line, where lots of courses will close, aging memberships, even with no levy costs now, there are few young adults joining clubs.
The lost cost- Low maintenance clubs will be ok, But in my own club house that costs a fortune to run, a bar that does not make money, which is subsidised by members..likewise the pro shop-
The best low cost operation I have seen was down in Cobh golf Club... Place was jammers.. one big portacabin as a clubhouse...and they have a restaurant in it.. they were all eating in there, reason being it was very well priced, lunchs for 5- 6 euro,
Roscrea built a clubhouse that cost them a million... Lovely little course..but that is some money for them to pay back.
But what's the quality difference between them?
Would you really be happy chunking your ball around a wet field?0 -
Greebo, I think you are ignoring his point...club house that costs a fortune to run, a bar that does not make money, which is subsidised by members..likewise the pro shop-
Its irrelevant what the quality of the course is, if the club can't sustain itself.0 -
If you introduce variable pricing and sell off time slots, why on earth would anyone join as a member?
Just become a distance member for 30 quid somewhere and then play for cheap on your local course?
Those non comp times you speak of filling up, surely that's members time?
If the course isn't available most of the time outside of a comp, why become a member
If the course can't fill empty slots with greenfees or societies/outings then I'm not sure what future it has, at least as a members club.
You’re mis-interpreting what I am saying – I’ve never said “sell off time slots” or “fill empty time slots with greenfees”. That would be a ridiculous thing for a members club to try to do, when most non-resort clubs derive about 90% of their revenue from members - not green-fees – we both know that.
As regards course usage, the figures I supplied are based on total course usage – not just competition time. The simple fact of the matter is that there oceans of unused non-competition time, far in excess of what members need.
What members need is affordable fees through effective use of the assets they are paying for.
I’ve already posted links to EGU and GGI sites outlining success stories of how more attractive membership packages and a few other actions do actually work in the real world. I’m also putting forward my own experience of successfully leading recruitment campaigns in my own club during the current recession and before.
For example, in 2006/7 we ran a campaign that brought in 40 new members a year for 2 years (including entrance fees) – enough to provide the cash flow to see us through a serious revenue fall-off during a major course re-development. For the next 2 years we lost a lot of members and only recruited a handful – cash flow became a major issue. In 2010 we adopted a new marketing plan, that included abolishing the entrance fee, several new member categories, a marginal cuts to member subs, a website re-vamp (including optimising traffic onto our site), social media campaign, member word of mouth campaign, to mention but a few. The result - we recruited 100 new members in year 1, another 75 in year 2 and modest excesses of income over expenditure. We’ve remained financially sound since then, but only on foot of yet more marketing activity.
What are you offering, other than a counsel of despair, that there are just too many clubs, so “if your club has problems, there’s little you can do about it”? What comes across from your posts is an attitude of “it won’t affect me, anyway, as our club is doing very well and needs to change nothing, thank you very much!”
How much experience do you have of recruiting members in a club with shrinking membership and cash flow? Doesn’t look to me as if you are putting yourself in the position that members in less well to do clubs find themselves in!0 -
Greebo, I think you are ignoring his point...
Its irrelevant what the quality of the course is, if the club can't sustain itself.
No I'm not, big difference between 10 course staff and one guy in a tractor. That's going to result in massive difference of course quality. The clubhouse debt doesn't come info that retain.0 -
And it seems to me that you, among others, seen to begrudge the fact that my club can still command a joining fee tbh.golfwallah wrote: »You’re mis-interpreting what I am saying – I’ve never said “sell off time slots” or “fill empty time slots with greenfees”. That would be a ridiculous thing for a members club to try to do, when most non-resort clubs derive about 90% of their revenue from members - not green-fees – we both know that.
As regards course usage, the figures I supplied are based on total course usage – not just competition time. The simple fact of the matter is that there oceans of unused non-competition time, far in excess of what members need.
What members need is affordable fees through effective use of the assets they are paying for.
I’ve already posted links to EGU and GGI sites outlining success stories of how more attractive membership packages and a few other actions do actually work in the real world. I’m also putting forward my own experience of successfully leading recruitment campaigns in my own club during the current recession and before.
For example, in 2006/7 we ran a campaign that brought in 40 new members a year for 2 years (including entrance fees) – enough to provide the cash flow to see us through a serious revenue fall-off during a major course re-development. For the next 2 years we lost a lot of members and only recruited a handful – cash flow became a major issue. In 2010 we adopted a new marketing plan, that included abolishing the entrance fee, several new member categories, a marginal cuts to member subs, a website re-vamp (including optimising traffic onto our site), social media campaign, member word of mouth campaign, to mention but a few. The result - we recruited 100 new members in year 1, another 75 in year 2 and modest excesses of income over expenditure. We’ve remained financially sound since then, but only on foot of yet more marketing activity.
What are you offering, other than a counsel of despair, that there are just too many clubs, so “if your club has problems, there’s little you can do about it”? What comes across from your posts is an attitude of “it won’t affect me, anyway, as our club is doing very well and needs to change nothing, thank you very much!”
How much experience do you have of recruiting members in a club with shrinking membership and cash flow? Doesn’t look to me as if you are putting yourself in the position that members in less well to do clubs find themselves in!
Do you disagree that if every club followed your tactic, done would still fail.
Your campaign took members or greenfees from other clubs, you didn't magic up new golfers from no where.
Golf courses have been and will remain largely unused during the morning during the week. Must people are working, it's a basic fact. The over 50's that people despair over are the ones using the course during this time.
The reality is that we are going to lose a bunch more clubs before this is over. All the marketing in the world isn't going to change that. It's not despair it's harsh reality. Ignoring that fact is head in the sand mentality.0 -
And it seems to me that you, among others, seen to begrudge the fact that my club can still command a joining fee tbh.
Do you disagree that if every club followed your tactic, done would still fail.
Your campaign took members or greenfees from other clubs, you didn't magic up new golfers from no where.
Golf courses have been and will remain largely unused during the morning during the week. Must people are working, it's a basic fact. The over 50's that people despair over are the ones using the course during this time.
The reality is that we are going to lose a bunch more clubs before this is over. All the marketing in the world isn't going to change that. It's not despair it's harsh reality. Ignoring that fact is head in the sand mentality.
No need to put words in my mouth - I don't begrudge your club or any other clubs that are financially sound, have good courses and facilities, etc.
Why would I - that's what all clubs are striving for.
And I agree with you 100% that there are too many clubs and that we are going to lose a bunch of them - regardless of what marketing programs are delivered.
But that's the macro view. And it's totally different at the micro level for about 300 clubs - they are in a competitive struggle for survival. I don't like this situation, which is driven from the downturn in the economic environment, more than you or anyone else.
But, like competitive golf, the harsh reality, is that there has to be winners and losers. The survivors will be a self selecting group who decide to do what it takes to out-compete other clubs - sad but true - something has to give - just make sure it isn't your club.
And those in locations near centres of population, with above average course and facility standards are in the best position to survive - once they get their message out there and have golf membership packages for sale that are attractive to both existing and potential new members - this requires customer focus and marketing. No point in having brilliant course / facilities that few people know about. You also need the service offerings (membership packages) at prices people (in different market segments) can afford.
That's all I'm saying. And yes it is a reality that this means attracting members from other clubs - that's life - that's what competition is all about. Not the "gentlemanly" approach that used to exist between clubs in the "brotherhood" of golf. But that's what survival of the most adaptable to the new environment actually looks like, if you think about it.
Harsh, I agree, in the short term while we watch the under-performing club committees take their clubs into oblivion. But better than a lingering death or constantly worsening conditions for a lot more clubs and members, while clubs stick to the status quo, because it's not "nice" to compete.
Like golf, you can still beat your opponent or finish in the top 10 and be gracious about your win. It can also be done without bad mouthing anyone - just let your course, facilities and service offerings do the talking.
My point is - those that do what it takes have a much better chance of seeing out the recession than those who wait around, doing nothing, because in the general scheme of things "there are too many clubs" and "there is nothing we can do about it".0 -
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golfwallah wrote: »My point is - those that do what it takes have a much better chance of seeing out the recession than those who wait around, doing nothing, because in the general scheme of things "there are too many clubs" and "there is nothing we can do about it".
Maybe I'm taking you up wrong, but you seem to be implying that most clubs are doing nothing and simply hoping for the best. I don't believe that to be the case. Most clubs I know of have set up membership committees, taken to the web, done the marketing etc etc., probably to varying degrees.
Its not being negative, but if a club isn't in a great location, say, more than
30 mins drive from a population centre, its going to struggle in a declining market. For a large number of clubs in that area outside the M50 ring around Dublin, they're mostly all in or around that c€1k price point, give or take. Many of them have different types of membership 5 day, 3 day, family etc etc and they're all competing with each other for survival. Unfortunately some of them are going to go, and IMO if they're all broadly at the same price its going to come down to other factors such as facilities, geography - if club A has a great practice ground if might be more attractive for a certain type of player than club B with only a putting green, likewise an older player might prefer club C because its flatter and an easier walk.
Clubs can only go so low before it becomes unviable (is that even a word ?:)). Most courses I'd venture are free at least 3 mornings a week, but what's the market for those slots ? Sure, you might get 20 or 30 people out for a fiver a go, or equally you might not, if your course is hilly, overly long, 15 minutes too far out. There are some courses I wouldn't play even if they were free, just as there are some I'd pay a premium for.
I don't know what the solution is, but I do think that simply reducing prices isn't the answer, courses may as well go to "pay as you play" if that was the case, but if that happened the club is gone anyway, so its futile.0 -
Maybe I'm taking you up wrong, but you seem to be implying that most clubs are doing nothing and simply hoping for the best. I don't believe that to be the case. Most clubs I know of have set up membership committees, taken to the web, done the marketing etc etc., probably to varying degrees.
Its not being negative, but if a club isn't in a great location, say, more than
30 mins drive from a population centre, its going to struggle in a declining market. For a large number of clubs in that area outside the M50 ring around Dublin, they're mostly all in or around that c€1k price point, give or take. Many of them have different types of membership 5 day, 3 day, family etc etc and they're all competing with each other for survival. Unfortunately some of them are going to go, and IMO if they're all broadly at the same price its going to come down to other factors such as facilities, geography - if club A has a great practice ground if might be more attractive for a certain type of player than club B with only a putting green, likewise an older player might prefer club C because its flatter and an easier walk.
Clubs can only go so low before it becomes unviable (is that even a word ?:)). Most courses I'd venture are free at least 3 mornings a week, but what's the market for those slots ? Sure, you might get 20 or 30 people out for a fiver a go, or equally you might not, if your course is hilly, overly long, 15 minutes too far out. There are some courses I wouldn't play even if they were free, just as there are some I'd pay a premium for.
I don't know what the solution is, but I do think that simply reducing prices isn't the answer, courses may as well go to "pay as you play" if that was the case, but if that happened the club is gone anyway, so its futile.
You are, indeed, taking me up wrong.
The situation is not as black and white as you are painting it – I’m not suggesting simply reducing prices, period or go “pay & play”, period. The market is a lot more nuanced, with different needs in different market segments, for such simplistic approaches to work. Points or Pay & Play membership can be part of a successful solution. I’ve played Hollystown, Corballis and Swords Open this year – all fine courses, filling certain market niches. Have yet to play Castleknock but the reports I heard are very positive. The aforementioned clubs are bringing in the members without ruining the game of golf as we know it.
The same applies to course usage. Membership categories and course usage are areas that need to be examined and analysed a lot more closely and more ways found to better balance supply and demand. Gut reaction and dismissive remarks will not do this (e.g. Ford’s one time position that you could have any car you like as long as it’s black).
You also seem to think that all clubs have a huge variety of membership types, good websites, are up to speed on marketing, etc., etc. Granted, some moves have been made over the last few years, e.g. through most clubs scrapping or reducing entrance fees. As clubs become aware of their member numbers around March / April, you also see clubs offering “one off” special deals for new members or discounts for people joining part way through the year. Also, just having a website is not enough. The website forms a large part of a club’s shop window – it should be kept updated, “search engine optimised”, etc., to make it easy for the customer to find (without knowing the club name) and compare prices, etc.
Comparisons take time - the attached spreadsheet (12 north Dublin clubs) indicates improvements over last year - but there are still lots of gaps in the range and variety of service offerings from club to club.
But, these are “reactive” rather than planned actions, IMO. To my mind there is still a long way to go and we will see a lot more initiatives in the remainder of this year and the following years as finances get tighter and tighter.
My whole point is that those clubs, who change to a planned rather than a reactive approach have a better chance of survival, once they can also tick the right boxes as regards location and facilities.
There is still a lot more clubs can do and no one has all the answers – but implying nothing more can be done simply doesn’t stack up!0 -
golfwallah wrote: »You are, indeed, taking me up wrong.
The situation is not as black and white as you are painting it – I’m not suggesting simply reducing prices, period or go “pay & play”, period. The market is a lot more nuanced, with different needs in different market segments, for such simplistic approaches to work. Points or Pay & Play membership can be part of a successful solution. I’ve played Hollystown, Corballis and Swords Open this year – all fine courses, filling certain market niches. Have yet to play Castleknock but the reports I heard are very positive. The aforementioned clubs are bringing in the members without ruining the game of golf as we know it.
The same applies to course usage. Membership categories and course usage are areas that need to be examined and analysed a lot more closely and more ways found to better balance supply and demand. Gut reaction and dismissive remarks will not do this (e.g. Ford’s one time position that you could have any car you like as long as it’s black).
You also seem to think that all clubs have a huge variety of membership types, good websites, are up to speed on marketing, etc., etc. Granted, some moves have been made over the last few years, e.g. through most clubs scrapping or reducing entrance fees. As clubs become aware of their member numbers around March / April, you also see clubs offering “one off” special deals for new members or discounts for people joining part way through the year. Also, just having a website is not enough. The website forms a large part of a club’s shop window – it should be kept updated, “search engine optimised”, etc., to make it easy for the customer to find (without knowing the club name) and compare prices, etc.
Comparisons take time - the attached spreadsheet (12 north Dublin clubs) indicates improvements over last year - but there are still lots of gaps in the range and variety of service offerings from club to club.
But, these are “reactive” rather than planned actions, IMO. To my mind there is still a long way to go and we will see a lot more initiatives in the remainder of this year and the following years as finances get tighter and tighter.
My whole point is that those clubs, who change to a planned rather than a reactive approach have a better chance of survival, once they can also tick the right boxes as regards location and facilities.
There is still a lot more clubs can do and no one has all the answers – but implying nothing more can be done simply doesn’t stack up!
1) I definitely don't think ALL clubs have huge variety, IMO most, or a lot, that need it, do.
2) Totally agree that a reactive approach will give a far better chance for survival.
Beyond that I'd agree with the vast bulk of what you've said.0 -
1) I definitely don't think ALL clubs have huge variety, IMO most, or a lot, that need it, do.
2) Totally agree that a reactive approach will give a far better chance for survival.
Beyond that I'd agree with the vast bulk of what you've said.
If your club is bringing in more revenue than it is spending - I'd agree you probably have a wide enough choice of membership types - at least for now. But it is not a static market and things can change very quickly. Also, quite a few clubs are struggling to make a revenue surplus or break-even.
All indicates the need for a planned approach - I think you may have misunderstood me on this point as most people would think that planning ahead is better than waiting for things to go wrong and then reacting. I would have though it better to have an agreed business plan that suits your club's needs rather than having a policy of responding to your neighbours initiatives.
Good to see the Confederation of Golf in Ireland announcing on 28th July that it is holding workshops on Business Planning around the country - that is, if club committees feel they have any need to get more up to speed in this area: http://www.cgigolf.org/news/0 -
golfwallah wrote: »I would have though it better to have an agreed business plan that suits your club's needs rather than having a policy of responding to your neighbours initiatives.
A sure fire way for a club to fail imo is either having:
1. No plan, or
2. A definite plan.
The key is having some plan but being able adapt it quickly and as sensibly as possible to changes elsewhere.0 -
A sure fire way for a club to fail imo is either having:
1. No plan, or
2. A definite plan.
The key is having some plan but being able adapt it quickly and as sensibly as possible to changes elsewhere.
Of course plans have to be managed and the management process needs to be flexible enough to deal with changes as they emerge.
That's the essence of good business planning and I'm sure all these issues will be covered in the CGI's Business Planning workshops and the on-going support offered for 6 - 8 weeks thereafter.
The advantage of the planned over the reactive approach is that it enables management to think things through and bring a majority of stakeholders along with them.0 -
golfwallah wrote: »Of course plans have to be managed and the management process needs to be flexible enough to deal with changes as they emerge.
That's the essence of good business planning and I'm sure all these issues will be covered in the CGI's Business Planning workshops and the on-going support offered for 6 - 8 weeks thereafter.
The advantage of the planned over the reactive approach is that it enables management to think things through and bring a majority of stakeholders along with them.
When you are dealing with people you often have to react rather than plan though.
You can plan to attract loads of new members, but until you see that people actually want what you are planning on selling them your is worthless.
React to what the market wants.
Its not good trying to bring all the people along with you, there are too many, frankly ignorant, people in most clubs. They wouldnt have a notion about finances or marketing or honestly care. They just want to play golf.
Get the core committee on board and go from there.
Thats of course dependent on your committee also having a clue, which sadly is often not the case.0 -
When you are dealing with people you often have to react rather than plan though.
You can plan to attract loads of new members, but until you see that people actually want what you are planning on selling them your is worthless.
React to what the market wants.
Its not good trying to bring all the people along with you, there are too many, frankly ignorant, people in most clubs. They wouldnt have a notion about finances or marketing or honestly care. They just want to play golf.
Get the core committee on board and go from there.
Thats of course dependent on your committee also having a clue, which sadly is often not the case.
I'll agree it isn't easy. I'll also agree that change has to come from the top and leadership is required. But, at the end of the day, majority member support is needed to bring about fundamental change.
Democracy is a messy business and it's not supposed to be easy. The way it works best is to keep people informed about the issues through more effective communications. That means treating the owners of the club (i.e. its members) like adults - if they have a grasp of the key issues, they will be enabled to make informed choices (i.e. the majority - you can't expect 100% agreement).
In the final analysis the club belongs to the members and it's up to the key senior committee people to figure a way out of the current financial environment, bringing a majority along with them. Courses and workshops like those on offer by the CGI will help in this regard. From what I've read, the workshops and support will be individually tailored to suit the needs of individual clubs - as each clubs situation is slightly different (even though the general picture of too many clubs and too few members remains the same).
It's much easier for the privately owned clubs and resorts to deal with this problem as only a few people (usually professionals) are involved, can inform themselves of the relevant facts and take whatever action they consider necessary.0 -
It seems there is no one, simple solution to improving “the state of Irish golf membership” as raised by the OP.
Or more to the point, how can individual clubs increase their own chances of survival?
The Confederation of Golf in Ireland (CGI) was set up last year by the major Irish golfing bodies (GUI, ILGU and PGA) to develop and promote the game of golf in Ireland, not only from a sport perspective, but from a business / governance perspective as well: http://www.cgigolf.org/services/
This is a significant change from the days when we used to see posts on this forum complaining at how little the GUI were doing to help clubs in this area - as their main focus was on the golf / sport side of things rather than the more mundane business side.
I, for one, see this as a step in the right direction. Has anyone else out there looked at their website or Facebook page and what do they think?0 -
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I'm not suggesting that the ideas in this video are for everyone but it does point to the need to re-think some of the traditional ways of doing things. These are some of the ideas being tried in the US to bring big numbers back into golf - endorsed by by people like Jack Nicklaus too!
Just shows the way people are thinking - extreme, I'd agree, but points to the need for at least some change here in Ireland, particularly towards making the golf more fun and more affordable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFEYC4Z44v0#t=530
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