Fluoride update re IQ

cdoherty86

jh79 wrote: »

Fluoride has always been present in water.

It does occur naturally but not in the quantities justified through water fluoridation and it's not the same. It's also added to food for example and there's really no justification for it.

If people in remote parts of South America can live well into their 40s/50s with a full set of teeth, there's no reason why we can't do the same.

It basically comes down to what you eat. In western societies, we have a diet that's almost unnatural. We're drinking cans of sugar like coca cola and sprite, then thinking diet sodas are the solution ignoring the fact it's full of acidic chemicals which the body needs to replace with calcium.

Alcohol, coffee, bread for example are highly acidic and unnecessary foods humans in the west consume. Chocolate...you name it, our diet is not what our bodies were evolved for.

We should be eating green vegetables and fruits which do indeed contain sugars but NOT sugars found in every day garbage we're forced to consume. Fructose is released much slower.

cdoherty86

I would add the practice is almost Neanderthal.

If we're not smart enough by now to know certain foods/drinks will rot our teeth, we're clearly not indoctrinating people properly.

If you don't like a good diet, you can buy toothpaste and mouthwash, eat your wagon wheels and mars bars, then visit your dentist for fillings.

It's not justification to punish everyone else with fluoridated water, it's absolutely ridiculous.

Chimpanzees wouldn't drink fluoridated water, they know better.

weisses

Step in the right direction,

Maybe fluoride is not lowering IQ after all ...

http://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-city-council-vote-fluoride-1710194-Oct2014/

enno99

Something I was pondering recently
if fluoride is a medication
Would Irish Water need a license to dispense a medication ?
And if It was found that it causes problems would they be liable ?

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Step in the right direction,

Maybe fluoride is not lowering IQ after all ...

http://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-city-council-vote-fluoride-1710194-Oct2014/

None of the mainstream parties voted against it so looks like it is here to stay for a while yet.

jh79

enno99 wrote: »

Something I was pondering recently
if fluoride is a medication
Would Irish Water need a license to dispense a medication ?
And if It was found that it causes problems would they be liable ?

Tea has fluoride too and bottled water such as San Pellegrino , does tea on prescription only seem a reasonable action?

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

None of the mainstream parties voted against it so looks like it is here to stay for a while yet.

Like I said ...... its a step, they will get there eventually and follow the rest of the civilised countries

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Like I said ...... its a step, they will get there eventually and follow the rest of the civilised countries

I always thought that government intervention to improve society was the mark of a civilized country.

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Step in the right direction,

Maybe fluoride is not lowering IQ after all ...

http://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-city-council-vote-fluoride-1710194-Oct2014/

Did it make any of the papers, I only heard about it on here.

enno99

jh79 wrote: »

Tea has fluoride too and bottled water such as San Pellegrino , does tea on prescription only seem a reasonable action?

Off hand can you tell me how much fluoride PG Tips and Barrys /Nestle add to their products ?
Do they claim that their products are beneficial to dental health ?

jh79

enno99 wrote: »

Off hand can you tell me how much fluoride PG Tips and Barrys /Nestle add to their products ?
Do they claim that their products are beneficial to dental health ?

Between 1.7 and 3 mg/l according to Waugh so a cup of tea can have between 2.5 to 4.5 times the fluoride than a cup of water !

Makes opposition to fluoridation seem silly considering how little fluoride we add to our water.

Doesn't matter what they claim the fluoride still has the same effect.

enno99

jh79 wrote: »

Between 1.7 and 3 mg/l according to Waugh so a cup of tea can have between 2.5 to 4.5 times the fluoride than a cup of water !

Makes opposition to fluoridation seem silly considering how little fluoride we add to our water.

Doesn't matter what they claim the fluoride still has the same effect.

How come they can add so much when the safe levels are lower or am I missing something ?

jh79

The safe levels refer to water fluoridation only.

enno99

jh79 wrote: »

The safe levels refer to water fluoridation only.

So there are no regulations on companies adding fluoride to their products

jh79

enno99 wrote: »

So there are no regulations on companies adding fluoride to their products

Food Safety Authority would ensure all consumer product are safe i suppose.

So is tea medicine?

enno99

jh79 wrote: »

Food Safety Authority would ensure all consumer product are safe i suppose.

So is tea medicine?

I wouldn't class it as one no
mind you I drink gallons of the stuff :eek:

Must do some research and find out how much they add and why
Does it make it taste better ?

jh79

enno99 wrote: »

I wouldn't class it as one no
mind you I drink gallons of the stuff :eek:

Must do some research and find out how much they add and why
Does it make it taste better ?

So why class fluoridated water as medicine when it actually contains less fluoride than tea?

enno99

jh79 wrote: »

So why class fluoridated water as medicine when it actually contains less fluoride than tea?

I dont class fluoridated water as medicine the people that tell you fluoride has dental Health benefits do

jh79

enno99 wrote: »

I dont class fluoridated water as medicine the people that tell you fluoride has dental Health benefits do

They class it as a nutrient or mineral like those added to cereals and milk.

enno99

jh79 wrote: »

They class it as a nutrient or mineral like those added to cereals and milk.

The WHO states that limitations to food fortification may include: human rights issues indicating that consumers have the right to choose if they want fortified products or not, the potential for insufficient demand of the fortified product, increased production costs leading to increased retail costs, the potential that the fortified products will still not be a solution to nutrient deficiencies amongst low income populations who may not be able to afford the new product, and children who may not be able to consume adequate amounts thereof.[2]

Food safety worries led to legislation in Denmark in 2004 restricting foods fortified with extra vitamins or minerals. Products banned include: Rice Crispies, Shreddies, Horlicks, Ovaltine and Marmite.[9]

Danes said [Kelloggs] Corn Flakes, Rice Krispies and Special K wanted to include "toxic" doses which, if eaten regularly, could damage children's livers and kidneys and harm fetuses in pregnant women.[10]


Dont remember being asked if we wanted fluoridated water

Anyway I cant find any info of tea companies adding fluoride to their tea
Some teas have different levels ok but that's a natural occurrence

Between 1.7 and 3 mg/l according to Waugh so a cup of tea can have between 2.5 to 4.5 times the fluoride than a cup of water !

do you have a link

jh79

Doesn't matter whether it is added or not it is the same substance.

If you believe fluoride to be bad for you then from your viewpoint tea is 2.5 to 4 times more toxic.

jh79

Always wondered what Waugh was thinking when he released his figures for fluoride mg/l in tea makes a mockery of the idea that the approximate 0.4ppm we add could be of any significance from a toxicity point of view.

A cup of irish water has multiples less levels of fluoride than the average tea bag!

enno99

jh79 wrote: »

Doesn't matter whether it is added or not it is the same substance.

If you believe fluoride to be bad for you then from your viewpoint tea is 2.5 to 4 times more toxic.

It matters precisely to my initial question
If Irish Water are adding fluoride to the water as medication for dental health
Do they need a license will they be liable for any adverse effects if they arise

Or if They class it as a nutrient or mineral like those added to cereals and milk.

why does this not apply

The WHO states that limitations to food fortification may include: human rights issues indicating that consumers have the right to choose if they want fortified products or not

But since you started out with a dishonest answer I dont hold out much hope

jh79

enno99 wrote: »

It matters precisely to my initial question
If Irish Water are adding fluoride to the water as medication for dental health
Do they need a license will they be liable for any adverse effects if they arise

Or if They class it as a nutrient or mineral like those added to cereals and milk.

why does this not apply

The WHO states that limitations to food fortification may include: human rights issues indicating that consumers have the right to choose if they want fortified products or not

But since you started out with a dishonest answer I dont hold out much hope

When was i dishonest, you aren't a believer in the mythical substance known as natural fluoride are you?

jh79

Do you consider the fluoride in tea to be "free range" or "organic" fluoride?

enno99

jh79 wrote: »

When was i dishonest, you aren't a believer in the mythical substance known as natural fluoride are you?

I asked you how much the companies added to their products

you answered
Between 1.7 and 3 mg/l according to Waugh so a cup of tea can have between 2.5 to 4.5 times the fluoride than a cup of water !


I gave you the benefit of the doubt and bolded the word add in the next question

jh79

enno99 wrote: »

I asked you how much the companies added to their products

you answered
Between 1.7 and 3 mg/l according to Waugh so a cup of tea can have between 2.5 to 4.5 times the fluoride than a cup of water !


I gave you the benefit of the doubt and bolded the word add in the next question

I assumed you were concerned about fluoride levels in what you consume, my mistake, so what are you concerned about if high fluoride levels aren't a problem?

enno99

jh79 wrote: »

I assumed you were concerned about fluoride levels in what you consume, my mistake, so what are you concerned about if high fluoride levels aren't a problem?

You know what they sat about lies you need a bigger one each time

jh79

enno99 wrote: »

You know what they sat about lies you need a bigger one each time

Did your question on tea have a relevant point? No matter how you spin it tea has more fluoride than fluoridated irish water.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Did your question on tea have a relevant point? No matter how you spin it tea has more fluoride than fluoridated irish water.

If you add it all up you might go over "safe levels"...

I still cannot find valid info regarding daily exposure/intake of fluoride through all means available... Must be there because the safe level in water must be based on that as well.

jh79

weisses wrote: »

If you add it all up you might go over "safe levels"...

I still cannot find valid info regarding daily exposure/intake of fluoride through all means available... Must be there because the safe level in water must be based on that as well.

I thought the SCHER report had it?
Which safe level are you referring to?

I think the EPA level of 4ppm is based on a formula used to find the human equivalent from animal studies in this case the neurotoxicity ones ( could be completely wrong on this).

The lower ones are probably because nobody has found any correlation between low fluoride levels and adverse effects bar fluorosis above 1.2ppm.

jh79

weisses wrote: »

If you add it all up you might go over "safe levels"...

I still cannot find valid info regarding daily exposure/intake of fluoride through all means available... Must be there because the safe level in water must be based on that as well.

Why go after the approx 0.4mg we add per litre of water when as a nation of tea drinkers we could be consuming up to 3-4 mg from only 3 cups of tea?

Logical dictates you remove the highest contributors to your daily intake.

Would you agree it is gonna be a hard sell to the general public when they are informed that their morning cup of tea could contain more fluoride than that added to the water they consume for the rest of the day?

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Would you agree it is gonna be a hard sell to the general public when they are informed that their morning cup of tea could contain more fluoride than that added to the water they consume for the rest of the day?

I think its a hard sell promoting the benefits of adding fluoride to the water when its already in your tea

jh79

weisses wrote: »

I think its a hard sell promoting the benefits of adding fluoride to the water when its already in your tea

True, but it's the scaremongering tactic that is more likely to be successful and that is gonna be a tough sell considering the fluoride levels in tea.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

True, but it's the scaremongering tactic that is more likely to be successful and that is gonna be a tough sell considering the fluoride levels in tea.

Are you worried about tea sales ? .... People can opt out of drinking Tea

King Mob

weisses wrote: »

Are you worried about tea sales ? .... People can opt out of drinking Tea

Do believe that tea is dangerous to your health?

The Councilor who proposed the motion was using the notion that fluoridation is dangerous.
You've stated several times that you do not agree that it is dangerous.

Are you ok that people are using false and debunked claims to ban it?

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Are you worried about tea sales ? .... People can opt out of drinking Tea

If you believe fluoridated water is toxic then you also believe tea is toxic and some brands of bottled water are toxic. That two servings of spinach is toxic etc.

Is tea medicine ? Why is fluoride in irish water toxic or medication but not the fluoride in tea or bottled water or spinach?

weisses

King Mob wrote: »

You've stated several times that you do not agree that it is dangerous

Where did I state that ?

And please stop the anwser a question with a question approach

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

If you believe fluoridated water is toxic then you also believe tea is toxic and some brands of bottled water are toxic. That two servings of spinach is toxic etc.

Is tea medicine ? Why is fluoride in irish water toxic or medication but not the fluoride in tea or bottled water or spinach?

Add it all up...... It's an uncontrolled daily intake that possibly exceeds what is deemed safe ... Wouldn't you agree ?

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Add it all up...... It's an uncontrolled daily intake that possibly exceeds what is deemed safe ... Wouldn't you agree ?

No , because there is no evidence for adverse effects in any country with less than 1ppm flouride in their water. The first sign of getting close to an unsafe level would be fluorosis . Mild cosmetic only fluorosis indicates that we don't exceed the safe dose.

jh79

If you got your wish , how would you expect the government to justify the change in policy and what would the implications be for other fluoride containing products/foodstuffs?

King Mob

weisses wrote: »

Where did I state that ?

And please stop the anwser a question with a question approach

So then you agree with him when he claims that there is scientific evidence that fluoridation is dangerous then?
If not, then you believe his is presenting falsehoods to manipulate the public into banning fluoride.

I believe that this is a very underhanded, bad and potentially dangerous think for a politician to do, and I think it's incredibly ironic that you are applauding him for it.

You don't believe that tea is dangerous even though it's got a much higher dose.
It doesn't make sense that you would believe water is more dangerous with a lower dose.

weisses

King Mob wrote: »

So then you agree with him when he claims that there is scientific evidence that fluoridation is dangerous then?
If not, then you believe his is presenting falsehoods to manipulate the public into banning fluoride.

I believe that this is a very underhanded, bad and potentially dangerous think for a politician to do, and I think it's incredibly ironic that you are applauding him for it.

You don't believe that tea is dangerous even though it's got a much higher dose.
It doesn't make sense that you would believe water is more dangerous with a lower dose.

That is a No then to my question to show where I stated several times that I do not agree that it is dangerous.

enno99

Tea

Studies of humans, animals, and petri-dish experiments show that tea is high beneficial to our health. Research suggests that regular tea drinkers -- people who drink two cups or more a day -- have less heart disease and stroke, lower total and LDL cholesterol, and recover from heart attacks faster. There's also evidence that tea may help fight ovarian and breast cancers.

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/features/health-benefits-tea

Studies of humans and animals show that the antioxidants in black and green teas are highly beneficial to our health, says 82-year-old John Weisburger, PhD, senior researcher at the Institute for Cancer Prevention in Valhalla, N.Y.

"I've published more than 500 papers, including a hell of a lot on tea," says Weisburger, who drinks 10 cups daily. "I was the first American researcher to show that tea modifies the metabolism to detoxify harmful chemicals."

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/features/antioxidants-in-green-and-black-tea

Perhaps nature finds its own balance

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

No , because there is no evidence for adverse effects in any country with less than 1ppm flouride in their water. The first sign of getting close to an unsafe level would be fluorosis . Mild cosmetic only fluorosis indicates that we don't exceed the safe dose.

And at what levels does that start to occur ?

How much ppm could ones daily intake go up to according to you ?

jh79

weisses wrote: »

That is a No then to my question to show where I stated several times that I do not agree that it is dangerous.

You have said that there isn't any evidence of toxicity at sub 1ppm levels but that the safe level is getting lower over time. Would that be a fair assesment of where you stand

weisses

enno99 wrote: »

Tea

Studies of humans, animals, and petri-dish experiments show that tea is high beneficial to our health. Research suggests that regular tea drinkers -- people who drink two cups or more a day -- have less heart disease and stroke, lower total and LDL cholesterol, and recover from heart attacks faster. There's also evidence that tea may help fight ovarian and breast cancers.

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/features/health-benefits-tea

Studies of humans and animals show that the antioxidants in black and green teas are highly beneficial to our health, says 82-year-old John Weisburger, PhD, senior researcher at the Institute for Cancer Prevention in Valhalla, N.Y.

"I've published more than 500 papers, including a hell of a lot on tea," says Weisburger, who drinks 10 cups daily. "I was the first American researcher to show that tea modifies the metabolism to detoxify harmful chemicals."

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/features/antioxidants-in-green-and-black-tea

Perhaps nature finds its own balance

I think there was a study done on cheap brands of Tea having high levels of fluoride in it (I posted them in the other closed thread)

I think different blends of Tea can be very beneficial

jh79

weisses wrote: »

And at what levels does that start to occur ?

How much ppm could ones daily intake go up to according to you ?

According to the forum for fluoridation that figure is between 1.2 and 2ppm a litre for cosmetic fluorosis..

So that would be approximately double what we have now.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

If you got your wish , how would you expect the government to justify the change in policy and what would the implications be for other fluoride containing products/foodstuffs?

Government is worried about legal/claim implications, that's why its maintaining the status quo

You do realize concerning the other foodstuff that a consumer actually has a simple choice not to consume it

jh79

weisses wrote: »

I think there was a study done on cheap brands of Tea having high levels of fluoride in it (I posted them in the other closed thread)

I think different blends of Tea can be very beneficial

All brands listed by Waugh contained between 1.7 and 3ppm a litre fluoride.

So do you believe tea has a safe level of fluoride?