Potential problem with our lease

WychWillow

Hi,

Just looking for a bit of advice on where we stand really. Our first years lease is up today. We had our quartly inspection from the letting agents 3 weeks ago, which we passed with flying colours, when I asked about renewing the lease I was told they had spoken to our landlord and it had already been approved but she had forgotten to bring the new lease out with her and someone would contact us about when they would be bringing the new lease out to us or when we could go into town to sign it ourselves.

As of today when our lease is up we haven't heard from them, so I have just called them, the agent told me that she spoke to our landlord last week and when she asked about renewing our lease he said he would get back to her, which he hasn't done yet, she has tried calling him back and he isn't answering his phone. He lives in the UK and we have no contact details for him, only for the agents.

So my problem is, 3 weeks ago we were told the lease was already approved and now today they are telling us they don't know if it is approved or not. We haven't looked for anywhere else to live, saved for another deposit, nothing, we thought we were okay to live here for another 12 months atleast. Where do we stand with this? As I said our lease is up today, so can we be forced to leave?

Any help would be much appreciated, thanks.

Michael D Not Higgins

You don't need a lease to continue living there. Under the RTA you acquire rights to Part 4 after 6 months allowing security of tenure which the landlord can only cancel under certain criteria allowed for by the RTA. What this means to you is that you keep paying your rent and the tenancy continues under the old terms.

Just one other thing. Your landlord is non-resident which means you are liable to retain 20% of the rent as payment for the landlord's tax. I would check the lease for this if you have not been doing this or contact the agent on whether they are subtracting the tax.

WychWillow

I've just read through our lease and nowhere does it state that we should be retaining 20% of the rent for tax purposes. Also on the lease it states his address as his mothers, which is in Ireland and we pay the rent into his Irish bank account, so although he lives in the UK if anyone was to look at our lease for all intent and purposes it looks like he lives in Ireland. Would we still have to retain the 20% in this case?

Also thank you for the Part 4 information, I had no idea about that, you've put my mind at rest an awful lot.

shruikan2553

Don't worry about a lease. The only thing you gain from it is knowing your rent won't change during that term.

Michael D Not Higgins

WychWillow wrote: »

I've just read through our lease and nowhere does it state that we should be retaining 20% of the rent for tax purposes. Also on the lease it states his address as his mothers, which is in Ireland and we pay the rent into his Irish bank account, so although he lives in the UK if anyone was to look at our lease for all intent and purposes it looks like he lives in Ireland. Would we still have to retain the 20% in this case?

Also thank you for the Part 4 information, I had no idea about that, you've put my mind at rest an awful lot.

In that case I'd be onto the agents. If they're worth their salt, they'll be doing the necessary tax liabilities. If not, then I'm not sure. I'd play dumb and say the address provided was Ireland so you assumed he was resident.

professore

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Just one other thing. Your landlord is non-resident which means you are liable to retain 20% of the rent as payment for the landlord's tax. I would check the lease for this if you have not been doing this or contact the agent on whether they are subtracting the tax.

What sort of insane law is that? That can't possibly be correct. Surely everyone should be responsible for their own tax affairs, resident or not? So if I buy something in a shop and they don't pay their VAT, I'm liable?

HcksawJimDuggan

Where rent is paid through an agent, the tenant is not liable to retain 20% of the rent as payment for the landlord's tax...

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.revenue.ie%2Fen%2Fabout%2Ffoi%2Fs16%2Fincome-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax%2Fpart-45%2F45-01-04.pdf%3Fdownload%3Dtrue&ei=ZH2xU_39DPKf7Ab6yICYCg&usg=AFQjCNFrRnl_cChI5RnzIFaLyEn4vQ4qjQ&bvm=bv.69837884,d.ZGU

Michael D Not Higgins

HcksawJimDuggan wrote: »

Where rent is paid through an agent, the tenant is not liable to retain 20% of the rent as payment for the landlord's tax...

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.revenue.ie%2Fen%2Fabout%2Ffoi%2Fs16%2Fincome-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax%2Fpart-45%2F45-01-04.pdf%3Fdownload%3Dtrue&ei=ZH2xU_39DPKf7Ab6yICYCg&usg=AFQjCNFrRnl_cChI5RnzIFaLyEn4vQ4qjQ&bvm=bv.69837884,d.ZGU

But it's paid directly to his bank account, not the agent's.

Michael D Not Higgins

professore wrote: »

What sort of insane law is that? That can't possibly be correct. Surely everyone should be responsible for their own tax affairs, resident or not? So if I buy something in a shop and they don't pay their VAT, I'm liable?

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it70.html#section22
What If Your Landlord Is Not Resident In The State?

If your landlord resides outside the Republic of Ireland (the State) and you pay rent directly to them or to their bank account either in the State or abroad, you must deduct income tax at the standard rate of tax (currently 20%) from the gross rents payable.
Failure to deduct tax may leave you liable for the tax that should have been deducted.

HcksawJimDuggan

Correct & right. Just picked up on mention of the agent and assumed it was paid to them.

Lesson learned to read all posts in future...

Michael D Not Higgins

What I don't know is if anyone has been held accountable for the landlord's tax, as in has the Revenue actually chased a tenant for the tax due or would they go after the landlord?

Claw Hammer

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

What I don't know is if anyone has been held accountable for the landlord's tax, as in has the Revenue actually chased a tenant for the tax due or would they go after the landlord?

It has happened that the Revenue has gone after the tenant. There have been complaints to the Ombudsman about it.

Michael D Not Higgins

Claw Hammer wrote: »

It has happened that the Revenue has gone after the tenant. There have been complaints to the Ombudsman about it.

In that case I'd be notifying the agents and landlord that I will be retrospectively retaining the rent to make up the arrears, that is, if they cannot provide the necessary to show the tax is being paid. No way would I risk being liable for that tax bill. At the moment it's one year's worth, which for a modest Dublin rental could be upwards of three grand.

daithi7

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

In that case I'd be notifying the agents and landlord that I will be retrospectively retaining the rent to make up the arrears, that is, if they cannot provide the necessary to show the tax is being paid. No way would I risk being liable for that tax bill. At the moment it's one year's worth, which for a modest Dublin rental could be upwards of three grand.

Yup, the OP can do that and the OP will more than likely lose their tenancy just as they originally had stated they do not want to.

Best course of action imho, is pay your existing rent on time to the irish bank account, and be thankful that your rent is not rising!!

If there is any attempt by revenue to claw back retention tax from you (which I sincerely doubt will happen btw) just plead dumb refer them to the estate agent and the irish address you have for your landlord.

If you wish to get more precious about it just insist on paying the full existing rent to the estate agents who can then forward it to the landlord whatever way they like. You have your house and your rent is unchanged so be happy and don't mess it up by getting too righteous. That's my advice FWIW.

sunnysoutheast

The landlord could have appointed his mother as a resident collection agent, in which case she is responsible for the return. This arrangement must be notified to Revenue, however.

If the documentation - e.g. lease agreement - states an Irish address then I am not sure that the tenant would be on the hook for the tax. Is the property PRTB registered?

Michael D Not Higgins

daithi7 wrote: »

Yup, the OP can do that and the OP will more than likely lose their tenancy just as they originally had stated they do not want to.

Best course of action imho, is pay your existing rent on time to the irish bank account, and be thankful that your rent is not rising!!

If there is any attempt by revenue to claw back retention tax from you (which I sincerely doubt will happen btw) just plead dumb refer them to the estate agent and the irish address you have for your landlord.

If you wish to get more precious about it just insist on paying the full existing rent to the estate agents who can then forward it to the landlord whatever way they like. You have your house and your rent is unchanged so be happy and don't mess it up by getting too righteous. That's my advice FWIW.

In that case, you file for an illegal eviction with the PRTB and sit back while the landlord gets dropped in it.

daithi7

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

In that case, you file for an illegal eviction with the PRTB and sit back while the landlord gets dropped in it.

wonderful, so you cause (completely unnecessary) hassle for your landlord by trying to collect retention tax, when by right you should have absolutely nothing to with it, and then when your landlord is so pissed off that they ask you to leave, you go crying to the PTRB that 'the big bad landlord' is kicking you out cos you've insisted on appointing yourself their tax collector.....

fupping wonderful, remind me to never rent a place to someone like you.

This is a stupid tax reg, and only stupid tenants will try to implement it imho. We are all responsible for our own taxes, imho the OP just wants to pay their existing rent and stay in their existing house. So they should just continue to do just that. AND only that.

Leave revenue to the IRS and the Ptrb to losers who like arguing and red tape, and enjoy your house at last years rent and be happy.... simples:)

Michael D Not Higgins

daithi7 wrote: »

wonderful, so you cause (completely unnecessary) hassle for your landlord by trying to collect retention tax, when by right you should have absolutely nothing to with it, and then when your landlord is so pissed off that they ask you to leave, you go crying to the PTRB that 'the big bad landlord' is kicking you out cos you've insisted on appointing yourself their tax collector.....

fupping wonderful, remind me to never rent a place to someone like you.

This is a stupid tax reg, and only stupid tenants will try to implement it imho. We are all responsible for our own taxes, imho the OP just wants to pay their existing rent and stay in their existing house. So they should just continue to do just that. AND only that.

Leave revenue to the IRS and the Ptrb to losers who like arguing and red tape, and enjoy your house at last years rent and be happy.... simples:)

I don't see what your problem is, I've pointed out the correct way for the tenant to go about it. You've pointed out the wrong way for the landlord to go about it.

Your comment about not renting to someone like me makes me think you're a landlord. Why would you be seen to protect a landlord who may be intentionally evading their tax? (keeping in mind I only said to go about this course of action if the agent could not show that the tax is being paid and how someone else confirmed the Revenue are chasing tenants for the 20%)

daithi7

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

I don't see what your problem is, I've pointed out the correct way for the tenant to go about it. You've pointed out the wrong way for the landlord to go about it.

Your comment about not renting to someone like me makes me think you're a landlord. Why would you be seen to protect a landlord who may be intentionally evading their tax? (keeping in mind I only said to go about this course of action if the agent could not show that the tax is being paid and how someone else confirmed the Revenue are chasing tenants for the 20%)

Correction - you've pointed out a way that you think is the correct way for the tenant to go about it.

And I have pointed out a common sense way that I think the tenant should continue to enjoy what they already have.... as that is what the OP said they wanted.

Your solution involves becoming a pain, insisting on being the landlords tax clearer/collector and ultimately using the PTRB to stay in their house---- I mean come on, how much of a headache are you trying to give these people by being so 'correct'!?

Pragmatic advice and common sense is what the OP is asking for- not war. Only fools like war.

Michael D Not Higgins

I'd want to avoid a battle with Revenue is all. What you propose they should do is stick their fingers in their ears and ignore everything in the hopes it'll go away. As posted by someone else Revenue are chasing these people, the ordinary tenants who weren't causing 'hassle for their landlord'.

sunnysoutheast

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

I'd want to avoid a battle with Revenue is all. What you propose they should do is stick their fingers in their ears and ignore everything in the hopes it'll go away. As posted by someone else Revenue are chasing these people, the ordinary tenants who weren't causing 'hassle for their landlord'.

From the information provided the only written document - the lease agreement - has an Irish address for the landlord. It may be a joint account, the mother may be the collection agent, we don't know.

A non-resident landlord would be crazy to allow the tenant to deduct the 20% in any case, unless it was collected at source through PAYE.

daithi7

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

I'd want to avoid a battle with Revenue is all. What you propose they should do is stick their fingers in their ears and ignore everything in the hopes it'll go away. As posted by someone else Revenue are chasing these people, the ordinary tenants who weren't causing 'hassle for their landlord'.

Nope, you're wrong again there. I proposed that they continue paying their rent to an Irish account for their landlord, for whom they have an Irish address i.e. IF the revenue ever come calling - they have a bone fide defence right there.

I also proposed that if they are really worried about the SUPPOSED revenue chase ups on this (and I do not believe these really happen btw) , they could insist on simply paying their rent to the estate agents instead. SIMPLE.

You being oh so CORRECT, propose making themselves a RIGHT nuisance on a number of fronts.... that will definitely lead to hassle, and in all probability a landlord request to leave.

It's their choice now I suppose................but I know what I would do.

The_Morrigan

Folks - could you get back on topic and stop with the petty squabbling.

Mrs OBumble

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

A non-resident landlord would be crazy to allow the tenant to deduct the 20% in any case, unless it was collected at source through PAYE.

Which it usually is.

IMHO this thread is a perfect example of why legalism is not A Good Thing.

quadrifoglio verde

daithi7 wrote: »

Correction - you've pointed out a way that you think is the correct way for the tenant to go about it.

And I have pointed out a common sense way that I think the tenant should continue to enjoy what they already have.... as that is what the OP said they wanted.

Your solution involves becoming a pain, insisting on being the landlords tax clearer/collector and ultimately using the PTRB to stay in their house---- I mean come on, how much of a headache are you trying to give these people by being so 'correct'!?

Pragmatic advice and common sense is what the OP is asking for- not war. Only fools like war.

His solution is the correct solution. Remind me to never rent from a landlord like you who isn't fully clued into the regs. If you're loving abroad the tenant must deduct 20%. End off, because if they don't they're up the ****ter with revenue.

daithi7

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

If you're loving abroad the tenant must deduct 20%. End off, because if they don't they're up the ****ter with revenue.

Jeez I must remember that when I'm loving abroad next.... costly business.

p.s. I ain't buying the 'you'll be in trouble with the revenue' scare mongering either... their lease has an Irish bank account & Irish postal address. end of.

quadrifoglio verde

daithi7 wrote: »

Jeez I must remember that when I'm loving abroad next.... costly business.

p.s. I ain't buying the 'you'll be in trouble with the revenue' scare mongering either... their lease has an Irish bank account & Irish postal address. end of.

Yes but there landlord is non resident here, making them potentially liable. We're not talking about a few quid either, if the op is in Dublin its at least 4 figures and then you can add penalties onto it. By god do revenue like their penalties.
For the sake of being tax compliant (because the tenant is obliged to deduct the tax if he isn't tax resident) its worth investigating.
The excuse of "I didn't know" rarely if ever washes with revenue

The_Morrigan

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Yes but there landlord is non resident here, making them potentially liable. We're not talking about a few quid either, if the op is in Dublin its at least 4 figures and then you can add penalties onto it. By god do revenue like their penalties.
For the sake of being tax compliant (because the tenant is obliged to deduct the tax if he isn't tax resident) its worth investigating.
The excuse of "I didn't know" rarely if ever washes with revenue

You already have one card for ignoring a mod instruction...cut it out.

/Mod