General Rugby Discussion

Tox56

matthew8 wrote: »

Conor Gilsenan starts for London Irish tomorrow, his debut for the club.

Good 7 but he was never going to get anywhere at Leinster, hope he goes well and gets himself a deal back here

errlloyd

Swiwi. wrote: »

I'd put money on him going to France or the UK. His style is suited to scoring tries is how I'd phrase it.

Yeah, the other team scoring tries.

Swiwi.

errlloyd wrote: »

Yeah, the other team scoring tries.

Looks like we agree to disagree: I think he would be a good signing for Leinster; you obviously don't. He has the odd defensive issue which prevents progression to the highest levels, but it's not woeful by any stretch either.

errlloyd

Swiwi. wrote: »

Looks like we agree to disagree: I think he would be a good signing for Leinster; you obviously don't. He has the odd defensive issue which prevents progression to the highest levels, but it's not woeful by any stretch either.

Sorry Swiwi I was a few smilies short of the level of banter I was trying to convey. I think he'd be an incredible signing for any team. I think it's probably reasonable to suggest the style in super rugby is different, but I was mostly poking fun at the stereotype.

If I'm honest I've only watched him in a few super rugby matches, for the barbarians and playing for new Zealand in the tag rugby world cup final.

.ak

Tox56 wrote: »

Good 7 but he was never going to get anywhere at Leinster, hope he goes well and gets himself a deal back here

I think he would get somewhere at leinster, but would probably have to wait a few years.

Swiwi.

errlloyd wrote: »

Sorry Swiwi I was a few smilies short of the level of banter I was trying to convey. I think he'd be an incredible signing for any team. I think it's probably reasonable to suggest the style in super rugby is different, but I was mostly poking fun at the stereotype.

If I'm honest I've only watched him in a few super rugby matches, for the barbarians and playing for new Zealand in the tag rugby world cup final.

Ah, you're grand. Super XV is definitely more expansive, and some games have woeful defence, but then so does some of the Pro 12 too. He's fine on the wing and FB, it's more in the midfield where he is too small and gets run through a bit. I do think he would be a good signing though, but wing/FB is not really a weak area for Leinster I guess.

Tox56

.ak wrote: »

I think he would get somewhere at leinster, but would probably have to wait a few years.

I'm not sure. Jennings will retire soon, but hopefully SOB won't be retiring for a while and Murphy and D Ryan are internationaly capped and have played a lot of rugby at 7, and they don't look like going anywhere. Even if one of them moves on that is a load of 7s ahead of Gilsenan, not to mention perhaps the biggest problem would be the 7s coming through in the academy, Van der Flier is talented and Leavy is enormously talented. Really not a lot of room for Gilsenan, definitely made the right decision to move on

Journeyman_1

Tox56 wrote: »

I'm not sure. Jennings will retire soon, but hopefully SOB won't be retiring for a while and Murphy and D Ryan are internationaly capped and have played a lot of rugby at 7, and they don't look like going anywhere. Even if one of them moves on that is a load of 7s ahead of Gilsenan, not to mention perhaps the biggest problem would be the 7s coming through in the academy, Van der Flier is talented and Leavy is enormously talented. Really not a lot of room for Gilsenan, definitely made the right decision to move on

I'd love to see Tim Nanai-Williams playing int the back row

EDIT: its funny when you mix up conversations

Morf

TNW is electric in attack but as long as you have him defending at wing or fb you're much better off a la Quade Cooper.

nc6000

I wonder what the thinking is behind the timing of the IRB rebranding to World Rugby?

Why change the name three weekends into the November international series? Why not either make the change before the November series or wait until it finishes?

icdg

They were having a big conference in London and wanted to launch the new branding at it. The timing doesn't make sense on a number of other levels but that's the reason.

aimee1

Bakkies Botha retires from internationals ...Irish times match report of todays game the source

nc6000

NZ clean sweep of IRB awards. Retallick player of the year.

LuckyGent88

aimee1 wrote: »

Bakkies Botha retires from internationals ...Irish times match report of todays game the source

Seen a picture on fb of him holding the Webb Ellis trophy with same report.

Great servant to the game. Absolute beast.

errlloyd

Rugby should adopt Hawkeye for lineouts, like with soccer it could buzz the ref watch if it's not straight otherwise not get used. I think Hawkeye could be programmed to judge straightness on angle rather than like distance.

Borders no.2

errlloyd wrote: »

Rugby should adopt Hawkeye for lineouts, like with soccer it could buzz the ref watch if it's not straight otherwise not get used. I think Hawkeye could be programmed to judge straightness on angle rather than like distance.

IMO that would be disastrous. I would be extremely wary of introducing any new technology as for me there is too many stoppages in the game now and an abdication of all responsibility by many officials these days.

In all fairness, its a set play, play is stopped. The linesman is looking straight down the middle as is the ref. If the referee and touch judge can't be trusted or can't trust themselves to get that amount right we might as well just play without officials.

Major practical issues with this also, what if someone takes a quick throw in backwards, will the watch buzz.

Imagine that being used on a wet windy evening with George Clancy reffing for example, there'd be about 100 scrums during the game.

Hawkeye is a great tool but I firmly believe it isn't appropriate in this instance.

errlloyd

It doesn't have to stop the game. It's not like tennis we don't need a replay. Works well in soccer to test when the ball cross the goal line in a fairly unobtrusive way.

The Lost Sheep

errlloyd wrote: »

Rugby should adopt Hawkeye for lineouts, like with soccer it could buzz the ref watch if it's not straight otherwise not get used. I think Hawkeye could be programmed to judge straightness on angle rather than like distance.

We need to be looking for less technology not more. If a referee and Touch Judge cant between them decide if a lineout is straight or not then god help us. We have enough to deal with without adding in something completely unnecessary that isn't exactly causing huge issues in games

errlloyd

Maybe I'm just a bit miffed about today's calls. But I see no negatives to it. As I say, the way they use it in soccer is completely unobtrusive, it gives an instant ruling.

Pudsy33

What are the arrangements of the rugby championship and super 15 next year with the world cup?

Jacovs

Normal Super 15 far as I know. Reduced Championship. Each team only plays every other team once, instead of twice.

Swiwi.

Jacovs wrote: »

Normal Super 15 far as I know. Reduced Championship. Each team only plays every other team once, instead of twice.

The RC of the RWC year is a damp squib. Each side resting players, hiding tactics, etc. Wouldn't surprise me if Argentina win it. Actually, that would, but still.

Swiwi.

This is interesting IMO. Seems clear that international rugby players world-wide are in solidarity with their Samoan rugby brethren.

The ugly spat between Samoan Prime Minister Tuilaepa Sa'ilele Malielegaoi, also the chairman of the country's rugby union, and Manu Samoa players is even more serious than many from outside the islands might realise.

A central principle of Samoan culture is respect for elders and leaders. That the players are so disgruntled they threaten to strike is at least, if not more, shocking than the idea of the All Blacks threatening a boycott against the NZRU.

Keep in mind it's not the first serious rift between the people running Samoan rugby and the players. At the 2011 World Cup, captain Mahonri Schwalger, backed by his senior players, alleged team officials mishandled money, gave away team training gear to family and friends and hosted parties at team hotels when they should have been attending to team business.

Team manager Matthew Vaea and union chief executive Sua Peter Schuster denied any wrong-doing, but both resigned.

Ominously, Schwalger was dropped from the side. People inside the current Manu Samoa camp suggest problems with financial transparency, organisation of training camps, even reimbursement of air fares the players have paid themselves, continue.

In 2014, Manu Samoa is a side filled with professional players, who turn out for teams in New Zealand, Australia, England and France. These are men who see the transparency in how rugby is managed in those countries. They don't see it in Samoa, and have reached a point where they're so angry about it they'll risk their international careers.

How can the damage be repaired? The logical organisation to step in is the International Rugby Board, now World Rugby.

The IRB has copped plenty from Samoan players (Samoan centre Eliota Fuimaono-Sapolu tweeting during the 2011 World Cup that Samoa's treatment by the IRB was "like the Holocaust, like apartheid") and at times has been a big, easy target. But to be fair to them, the masters of the game have also sent large sums of development money to Samoa in recent years.

So officials at the new World Rugby would have every right to order a full investigation, which would include the union's books being opened, into how Samoan rugby is being run.

But do that and the spectre of colonial racism starts to loom. Add in the fact the head of Samoan rugby is also the prime minister of an independent country and making demands that could be construed as questioning the integrity of the Samoan union opens a potentially explosive, deeply ugly, can of worms.

What's blindingly obvious is that the present situation, where the players are united and getting support from current All Blacks, and the Prime Minister's only response is calling them "spoilt children", is untenable.

Eleven days ago Peter Fatialofa's headstone, as broad and strong as the man himself, was unveiled. We huddled against a biting wind at the Manukau Memorial Gardens. Many of the fearless men of the 1991 Manu Samoa side, which Peter led the first time Samoa was at a World Cup, in 1991, were there, giants such as Mata'afa Keenan, Mark Birtwistle, and Eddie Ioane, perky, quick backs such as Tu Nulia'aitia and Andy Aiolupo .

In the shared sorrow there was also pride at what Fats and his men had achieved.

Players went to every village on the main island of Upolu with a wheelbarrow on the back of a truck. People filled the wheelbarrow as they wheeled it round, and they collected $150,000.

It was heartwarming, it was pure but it was 23 years ago. Since then world rugby has turned professional, and the days of passing the bucket, or wheelbarrow, should surely have gone. Manu Samoa made the quarterfinals in '91, and came home to a heroes' welcome.

How tragic that the struggle to transform reverence for the team into something concrete for the game in Samoa has become so fraught.

Jacovs

Swiwi. wrote: »

The RC of the RWC year is a damp squib. Each side resting players, hiding tactics, etc. Wouldn't surprise me if Argentina win it. Actually, that would, but still.

Think we spoke about this a while back too.
Is there the rule about having to field your strongest team available for games?
And was SA guilty of fielding a weaker team in 2011's RC when they toured to NZ and Aus? Seem to remember something like that.

George Hook

How can one person be both the Prime Minister and Chairman of their rugby union?

Is there some sort of international crime bureau that can be called into this?

Larbre34

IRB have a nice new and decluttered website http://www.worldrugby.org using the World Rugby brand you may have seen on the refs kit during the AIs

molloyjh

Swiwi. wrote: »

This is interesting IMO. Seems clear that international rugby players world-wide are in solidarity with their Samoan rugby brethren.

The ugly spat between Samoan Prime Minister Tuilaepa Sa'ilele Malielegaoi, also the chairman of the country's rugby union, and Manu Samoa players is even more serious than many from outside the islands might realise.

A central principle of Samoan culture is respect for elders and leaders. That the players are so disgruntled they threaten to strike is at least, if not more, shocking than the idea of the All Blacks threatening a boycott against the NZRU.

Keep in mind it's not the first serious rift between the people running Samoan rugby and the players. At the 2011 World Cup, captain Mahonri Schwalger, backed by his senior players, alleged team officials mishandled money, gave away team training gear to family and friends and hosted parties at team hotels when they should have been attending to team business.

Team manager Matthew Vaea and union chief executive Sua Peter Schuster denied any wrong-doing, but both resigned.

Ominously, Schwalger was dropped from the side. People inside the current Manu Samoa camp suggest problems with financial transparency, organisation of training camps, even reimbursement of air fares the players have paid themselves, continue.

In 2014, Manu Samoa is a side filled with professional players, who turn out for teams in New Zealand, Australia, England and France. These are men who see the transparency in how rugby is managed in those countries. They don't see it in Samoa, and have reached a point where they're so angry about it they'll risk their international careers.

How can the damage be repaired? The logical organisation to step in is the International Rugby Board, now World Rugby.

The IRB has copped plenty from Samoan players (Samoan centre Eliota Fuimaono-Sapolu tweeting during the 2011 World Cup that Samoa's treatment by the IRB was "like the Holocaust, like apartheid") and at times has been a big, easy target. But to be fair to them, the masters of the game have also sent large sums of development money to Samoa in recent years.

So officials at the new World Rugby would have every right to order a full investigation, which would include the union's books being opened, into how Samoan rugby is being run.

But do that and the spectre of colonial racism starts to loom. Add in the fact the head of Samoan rugby is also the prime minister of an independent country and making demands that could be construed as questioning the integrity of the Samoan union opens a potentially explosive, deeply ugly, can of worms.

What's blindingly obvious is that the present situation, where the players are united and getting support from current All Blacks, and the Prime Minister's only response is calling them "spoilt children", is untenable.

Eleven days ago Peter Fatialofa's headstone, as broad and strong as the man himself, was unveiled. We huddled against a biting wind at the Manukau Memorial Gardens. Many of the fearless men of the 1991 Manu Samoa side, which Peter led the first time Samoa was at a World Cup, in 1991, were there, giants such as Mata'afa Keenan, Mark Birtwistle, and Eddie Ioane, perky, quick backs such as Tu Nulia'aitia and Andy Aiolupo .

In the shared sorrow there was also pride at what Fats and his men had achieved.

Players went to every village on the main island of Upolu with a wheelbarrow on the back of a truck. People filled the wheelbarrow as they wheeled it round, and they collected $150,000.

It was heartwarming, it was pure but it was 23 years ago. Since then world rugby has turned professional, and the days of passing the bucket, or wheelbarrow, should surely have gone. Manu Samoa made the quarterfinals in '91, and came home to a heroes' welcome.

How tragic that the struggle to transform reverence for the team into something concrete for the game in Samoa has become so fraught.

Got chatting to a few people at the weekend and I have to say I didn't realise it was quite that bad over there. The more this gets highlighted the better as it needs to change.

matthew8

Moral victory for London Welsh at the weekend, only lost 26-5. Leicester had to work for that BP. Welsh have signed Opeti Fonua, of all their needs I never really got the impression an overweight Tongan back row was the biggest issue.

thomond2006

matthew8 wrote: »

Moral victory for London Welsh at the weekend, only lost 26-5. Leicester had to work for that BP. Welsh have signed Opeti Fonua, of all their needs I never really got the impression an overweight Tongan back row was the biggest issue.

You have to wonder if there has any point to them spending more money at this stage. Unless another club suddenly folds then London Welsh are getting relegated and are on a hiding to nothing.

Molester Stallone II

matthew8 wrote: »

Moral victory for London Welsh at the weekend, only lost 26-5. Leicester had to work for that BP. Welsh have signed Opeti Fonua, of all their needs I never really got the impression an overweight Tongan back row was the biggest issue.

Ever seen a skinny Tongan back row?........in fact, have you ever seen a skinny Tongan?!

sydneybound

thomond2006 wrote: »

You have to wonder if there has any point to them spending more money at this stage. Unless another club suddenly folds then London Welsh are getting relegated and are on a hiding to nothing.

They must believe that with four or five wins by the end of the season they could stay up. However I'm more of the thinking of not wasting your money and blood some of the younger development squad than bring in these type of players.

You never know their main sponsor or backer might be kicking up a fuss with such poor performance and feel the need to bring in other players, at this stage they need a miracle given Newcastle won at the weekend.

The Lost Sheep

Saw this on twitter...

This will be interesting competition - Islamic Solidarity Sports Federation(ISSF) Crescent Cup. Was meant to be next month but now not going to be played until next June.
Its a XV competition for the national teams of islamic countries. Think there has been just 1 country with an Islamic majority to have competed in a world cup(Ivory Coast) so it will be interesting to see how this competition goes.

George Hook

Samoa team deny prime minister’s claim that union dispute is resolved

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/nov/26/samoa-rugby-team-deny-prime-minister-union-dispute-resolved

matthew8

Apparently Hartley is staying in Northampton. Very good news for Northampton. It was one of those transfers that really wouldn't have made a lot of sense. Captain at a club that has shown a lot of patience with him (and also a club that are hardly poor themselves) and playing for his country, it really didn't make much sense to me that he would move to France.

pickarooney

Not sure if this had been mentioned elsewhere but a world club championship match between the Waratahs and Toulon has been mooted for the first week of February, in Toulon or Marseille. It was in an article linked on the ultimate rugby app.

thomond2006

Jaque Fourie has retired from international rugby.

Swiwi.

thomond2006 wrote: »

Jaque Fourie has retired from international rugby.

Best wishes!

(but also a bit of relief for all other nations I would have thought, SA haven't found his replacement yet)

Yeah_Right

pickarooney wrote: »

Not sure if this had been mentioned elsewhere but a world club championship match between the Waratahs and Toulon has been mooted for the first week of February, in Toulon or Marseille. It was in an article linked on the ultimate rugby app.

Something like this was meant to happen last year between the Chiefs and Toulon I think. Did the game ever take place? I can't remember.

b.gud

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Something like this was meant to happen last year between the Chiefs and Toulon I think. Did the game ever take place? I can't remember.

No it was a bit like the Tahs Toulon match that is being talked about now. Lots of people saying that it was def gonna happen but never did. The only difference is that the Australian rugby might see it as more valuable ($$) match than NZ did last year

Pudsy33

Did anyone see Bath? How did Burgess get on?

Tox56

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Did anyone see Bath? How did Burgess get on?

Saw him carry a few times for a couple of yards, looks good at getting his hands free. Didn't do much but he looked massive on the pitch

letowski

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Did anyone see Bath? How did Burgess get on?

Played for 17 minutes at inside center, it's reported. Hopefully we get to see what he is like in Europe next week against Monpellier.

homecouldbhere

Anyone see Gatland interviewed before the SA match today?
Couldn't help but be reminded of David Brent! I'm an Irish fan out and out. But I've loved watching Wales win their grand slams under Gatland; but he's STALE now..surely.
I fear they might be the team that don't qualify from their group given that England and Australia will go through (with Australia being group winners)
Gatland has not got enough new ideas to bring this Welsh team on.

phog

I couldn't see a Wallabies Thread so decided to post it here.

Saw this on Twitter

Colm Kinsella ‏@ckSportLeader ·52 mins52 minutes ago
Limerick man playing key backroom role with the Michael Cheika's Wallabies rugby side http://www.limerickleader.ie/sport/limerick-sport/the-limerick-man-part-of-the-australian-rugby-backroom-team-1-6445091 … #munster #australia #limerick

Link

Piliger

Don't know if anyone else has posted this AllBlacks article but it's very positive about Ireland right now...

"in Jonathan Sexton the Six Nations champions have perhaps have the best in-game management first five-eighth going around (based on current form mind), but it is their pack that has been fearsome."

The Lost Sheep

Nigel Wray believes Premiership referees should be employed by the competition's clubs, rather than the Rugby Football Union.
"The club game needs to employ its own referees," Wray told BBC Sport.
"Their decisions influence the game enormously. We need to tell them the sort of game we want played - which has to be attractive to the customer."
Wray says he is not questioning the quality of the RFU's referees but believes the same officials, employed by the Premiership's 12 clubs, would be able to help deliver a more appealing product.

"At the end of the day, we're in the entertainment business. We're trying to get the audience who have not yet come - if they don't have a clue about any of the decisions, how are we going to persuade them to watch?"

"They can be the same referees, but we need to employ them," Wray said.
"During the week the referees could go into schools, teach, encourage other referees and become full pros."

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/30196682

Thoughts on this? No thanks. Some referee's who are pro's are employed by their unions, Peter Fitzgibbon etc but totally disagree on clubs employing the referees

molloyjh

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Nigel Wray believes Premiership referees should be employed by the competition's clubs, rather than the Rugby Football Union.
"The club game needs to employ its own referees," Wray told BBC Sport.
"Their decisions influence the game enormously. We need to tell them the sort of game we want played - which has to be attractive to the customer."
Wray says he is not questioning the quality of the RFU's referees but believes the same officials, employed by the Premiership's 12 clubs, would be able to help deliver a more appealing product.

"At the end of the day, we're in the entertainment business. We're trying to get the audience who have not yet come - if they don't have a clue about any of the decisions, how are we going to persuade them to watch?"

"They can be the same referees, but we need to employ them," Wray said.
"During the week the referees could go into schools, teach, encourage other referees and become full pros."

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/30196682

Thoughts on this? No thanks. Some referee's who are pro's are employed by their unions, Peter Fitzgibbon etc but totally disagree on clubs employing the referees

It's just another move to wrestle control of the game from the Unions. Someone needs to put these guys back in their boxes. It's getting really tiresome.

.ak

Jesus Wept. Controlling the refs to make a game look pretty.

former legend

.ak wrote: »

Jesus Wept. Controlling the refs to make a game look pretty.

Didn't the Super 12 do something similar when it started? That the refs were asked to be lenient on forward passes and other technical infringements to let the game flow more and be more entertaining?


Open to correction on that now.

postitnote

"...we're in the entertainment business."

When did Vince McMahon buy Saracens?

Oh i do hope they sign Hulk Hogan up!!