General Rugby Discussion

Swan Curry · 22-12-2014 2:20am

The thing is, you can't just detach the history of blackface from it, even if it's someone doing it nowadays and doesn't think anyone should be offended. The negative racial stereotypes that are associated with blackface are still believed quite strongly by many people, and even if Williams doesn't personally believe them, he's perpetuating those stereotypes by "blacking up".

I'm sure Liam Williams isn't a racist (he's a famous person with a Twitter account, we'd know by now if he was racist), but he should have known better than to do it.

Pudsy33 · 22-12-2014 2:40am

He says he even asked Bony personally. I love to hate Williams as much as the next man but this is a non-story.

sydthebeat · 22-12-2014 8:38am

Swan Curry wrote: »

The thing is, you can't just detach the history of blackface from it, even if it's someone doing it nowadays and doesn't think anyone should be offended. The negative racial stereotypes that are associated with blackface are still believed quite strongly by many people, and even if Williams doesn't personally believe them, he's perpetuating those stereotypes by "blacking up".

I'm sure Liam Williams isn't a racist (he's a famous person with a Twitter account, we'd know by now if he was racist), but he should have known better than to do it.

Personally I believe the racial stereotype is being perpetuated by those who took offense and not by williams.

molloyjh · 22-12-2014 9:23am

sydthebeat wrote: »

Personally I believe the racial stereotype is being perpetuated by those who took offense and not by williams.

This. At some point this stuff needs to be left in the past. Society as a whole has moved on. There are still some genuine issues with regards racism. Let's focus on those and stop making something out of nothing elsewhere.

Buer · 22-12-2014 9:33am

Dressing up as a black person is not "Blackface".

total former · 22-12-2014 9:48am

Bang out of order. That costume clearly implies that Wilfried Bony has dark skin. This is the sort of outdated stereotype we need to root out once and for all.

22-12-2014 10:32am

sydneybound wrote: »

Well anyway what do people think of the 28,500 crowd wasps got today? It's the biggest home crowd in a rugby clubs home ground ever in the prem (noted matches in Wembley & Twickers don't count as their not clubs home grounds).

It should be noted that they gave out 3,000 free tickets to school kids.

They averaged 5,000 at Adams Park so if they could average 10,000 in Coventry they would be doing extremely well.

They should get great crowds for local derby's against Leicester & Northampton.

If they can keep an average gate of 10k + for the rest of the season, they will have to look at the move as a success.

My friends who are Wasps fans have agreed to come to the EPRCERSD game with us but are calling it quits with the club after that. You can't please everybody though, and if Coventry Wasps attracts 8/9k+ new fans through the gates then they can say that they've had to make a difficult but ultimately rewarding decision.

The fans I know are a left feeling pretty disenfranchised though. I've pointed them onto Quins, with their excellent stadium and huge number of English players. I imagine it's pretty awful trying to change teams, kind of like a break up really, but they're thinking about it.

sydthebeat · 22-12-2014 10:32am

total former wrote: »

Bang out of order. That costume clearly implies that Wilfried Bony has dark skin. This is the sort of outdated stereotype we need to root out once and for all.

Implies? ?? Lol

It's not a stereotype if it is actually factually correct. Newsflash, bony is black!

What's actually a much worse stereotype is this red wigs and beards you see on st patricks day...... but hey, we're great craic so its ok.

Nonsense.

Its actually more racist NOT to be allowed to dress up as a black person.

OldRio · 22-12-2014 10:33am

So it seems a high percentage of white guys on this thread think it's OK.

Perhaps, just perhaps we should ask someone of a different skin colour what they think? It might change our perception.

Buer · 22-12-2014 10:34am

sydthebeat wrote: »

Implies? ?? Lol

It's not a stereotype if it is actually factually correct. Newsflash, bony is black!
.

Whhhhhoooooooooooosh!

sydthebeat · 22-12-2014 10:36am

Buer wrote: »

Whhhhhoooooooooooosh!

If that was sarcasm by total former, it was a poor effort.

Buer · 22-12-2014 10:39am

OldRio wrote: »

So it seems a high percentage of white guys on this thread think it's OK.

Perhaps, just perhaps we should ask someone of a different skin colour what they think? It might change our perception.

I'm sure a number of us have friends of a different race and have had such discussions. It depends on whether it is done in a derogatory manner.

Lets put it this way, if someone from a different country dresses up in a leather jacket and trousers, slicks their hair back, puts on shades and calls themselves Bono, do I take offence? No. Is someone puts on a red wig, staggers around in mock drunkenness and acts like a simpleton, do I take offence? Yes.

total former · 22-12-2014 10:43am

OldRio wrote: »

So it seems a high percentage of white guys on this thread think it's OK.

Perhaps, just perhaps we should ask someone of a different skin colour what they think? It might change our perception.

Could a very sensitive person, or a person with a particular agenda, not turn this statement around and say it's very racist (and sexist) of you to assume that we're all white guys?

Look, it was naive of Williams to a) dress up like this and b) stick a photo up on Twitter, but I don't think there was any racist intent behind it.

sydthebeat · 22-12-2014 10:46am

Sorry I took you up wrong total former, ignore my other post

ssaye2 · 22-12-2014 10:47am

http://www.pro12rugby.com/news/16294.php#.VJfoicCD44

Ospreys Rugby are delighted to announce that Justin Tipuric has committed his future to the region, signing a new contract that keeps him at the Liberty Stadium until 2018.

Great player

thomond2006 · 22-12-2014 10:50am

Great bit of business. Perhaps this is the start of Gatland's Law making a difference.

molloyjh · 22-12-2014 10:59am

OldRio wrote: »

So it seems a high percentage of white guys on this thread think it's OK.

Perhaps, just perhaps we should ask someone of a different skin colour what they think? It might change our perception.

FFS, the guy wasn't being racist. End of. It's pretty f-ing obvious he wasn't being racist too.

The idea that people can't dress up as someone from a different ethnic background for fear of being called racist is truly and utterly crazy. Beyond all belief crazy. If there is bad intent behind it then fair enough, but far more often than not there isn't. It's PC gone bonkers. If some people find it offensive then I'd suggest they have a closer look at themselves than anyone else. The only people to bring any negativity to this have been the PC brigade, and not the guy in question. He dressed up as a footballer, nothing more. If that footballer was a white guy with rosy cheeks then he'd have "red-ed up" his cheeks, if he was a bald footballer he'd have worn a cap to make himself look bald. It's complete and utter nonsense this whole thing.

OldRio · 22-12-2014 11:06am

molloyjh wrote: »

FFS, the guy wasn't being racist. End of. It's pretty f-ing obvious he wasn't being racist too.

The idea that people can't dress up as someone from a different ethnic background for fear of being called racist is truly and utterly crazy. Beyond all belief crazy. If there is bad intent behind it then fair enough, but far more often than not there isn't. It's PC gone bonkers. If some people find it offensive then I'd suggest they have a closer look at themselves than anyone else. The only people to bring any negativity to this have been the PC brigade, and not the guy in question. He dressed up as a footballer, nothing more. If that footballer was a white guy with rosy cheeks then he'd have "red-ed up" his cheeks, if he was a bald footballer he'd have worn a cap to make himself look bald. It's complete and utter nonsense this whole thing.

Regarding the above. Could you please show me in my original post whereabouts I called him racist?

CatFromHue · 22-12-2014 11:06am

OldRio wrote: »

So it seems a high percentage of white guys on this thread think it's OK.

Perhaps, just perhaps we should ask someone of a different skin colour what they think? It might change our perception.

I ran out and stopped the first black guy I saw and asked him, he looked at me funny and walked off.........

molloyjh · 22-12-2014 11:07am

OldRio wrote: »

Regarding the above. Could you please show me in my original post whereabouts I called him racist?

I didn't say you did. I'm making a pretty basic point that this is something over nothing. Regardless of whether I'm black, white, male or female it's still something over nothing.

OldRio · 22-12-2014 11:09am

total former wrote: »

Could a very sensitive person, or a person with a particular agenda, not turn this statement around and say it's very racist (and sexist) of you to assume that we're all white guys?

Look, it was naive of Williams to a) dress up like this and b) stick a photo up on Twitter, but I don't think there was any racist intent behind it.

Regarding the former. If a poll was carried out I would be 100% correct.
As for the latter, I agree.

OldRio · 22-12-2014 11:13am

molloyjh wrote: »

I didn't say you did. I'm making a pretty basic point that this is something over nothing. Regardless of whether I'm black, white, male or female it's still something over nothing.

That is your opinion and you have every right to express it. Exactly the same as every person on the opposite side of the argument.

Like I said in my original post have a chat with someone of a different skin colour and you might have get a different perception on it. That is all.

OldRio · 22-12-2014 11:15am

CatFromHue wrote: »

I ran out and stopped the first black guy I saw and asked him, he looked at me funny and walked off.........

Must be the way you run.

errlloyd · 22-12-2014 11:27am

I think we've reached a general consensus that he's not racist, just a little bit silly. As for how notable it is as news, I think there is a liberal press element that will always make an example out of celebrities who do things perceived as offensive. I probably wouldn't intuitively guess that people take as much offense as they do, so I owe someone like Liam Williams big time for making the mistake so I don't have to.

I also think it's probably more newsworthy than the pictures of Jordi Murphys new girlfriend the Irish independent posted on Facebook! Seriously biggest broadsheet in the state!

irishbucsfan · 22-12-2014 11:29am

OldRio wrote: »

Regarding the former. If a poll was carried out I would be 100% correct.

Why exactly do you think this?

b.gud · 22-12-2014 11:37am

Hello, maybe someone could help me, I'm looking for the general rugby discussion thread, has anyone seen it near here? :rolleyes:

Here's another team of the year article this time from Rugby365

molloyjh · 22-12-2014 11:37am

OldRio wrote: »

Like I said in my original post have a chat with someone of a different skin colour and you might have get a different perception on it. That is all.

So because of my skin colour my opinion is less relevant? Listen, I'm going to leave it there because there really is no point...

Swan Curry · 22-12-2014 11:54am

molloyjh wrote: »

So because of my skin colour my opinion is less relevant? Listen, I'm going to leave it there because there really is no point...

Hah, "Let's leave it, now that I've deliberately misinterpreted what you said so that I can have the last word". Glad you're here to root out who the real racists are.

OldRio · 22-12-2014 12:02pm

molloyjh wrote: »

So because of my skin colour my opinion is less relevant? Listen, I'm going to leave it there because there really is no point...

Again, I never said that or implied it. If you think talking to people who might have more experience of the matter and have a different opinion is wrong. So be it. Yes, tis best you leave it.

OldRio · 22-12-2014 12:03pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Why exactly do you think this?

Experience.

molloyjh · 22-12-2014 12:21pm

Swan Curry wrote: »

Hah, "Let's leave it, now that I've deliberately misinterpreted what you said so that I can have the last word". Glad you're here to root out who the real racists are.

OldRio wrote: »

Again, I never said that or implied it. If you think talking to people who might have more experience of the matter and have a different opinion is wrong. So be it. Yes, tis best you leave it.

Talk about missing the point.

Williams never said or implied anything either. That still didn't stop people from pulling out the race card. It's every bit as valid for me to do it in that context as others to do it to Williams. That was the point I was trying to make. It's equally ridiculous either way.

.ak · 22-12-2014 12:43pm

Okay folks please move it to the off topic thread.

thomond2006 · 22-12-2014 12:46pm

Worth a read: The full Delon Armitage hearing

http://www.epcrugby.com/images/content/Written_decision_-_Delon_Armitage.pdf?utm_source=Media+-+English&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Armitage+written+decision+ENG

22-12-2014 1:00pm

Aaaaaaand back to rugby (via basketball)...

For any of the other sports geeks out there, I've just read this excellent article on the value of a steal in Basketball, and am considering the rugby equivalent.

To translate to rugby speak. Players like JdV, with an enormous number of intercept tries can actually be worth more than the point swing they create when they don't concede AND score by making those interceptions.

To visualize this, imagine being an out half that is weighing up the options whilst in a 3 on 2 overlap with "AN Other" being the first defender vs JdV and his "ball magnet intercept hands" being the first defender. (Imagine we run the play a thousand times)
Just having JdV in that position might cause the OH to attempt the (perhaps basic) pass less often, so reduces the other teams percentage chance of scoring. So even though the intercept isn't actually even attempted, the presence of the interceptor is a +EV play for JdV. In effect, JdV's 'legacy' is worth points in games even when he has no 'clear and obvious' intervention. Not only when he does intercept do the team not concede AND score, but because he's caused the opposition to make a 'bad decision' more often, he's actually reducing their overall points total just by being there.

There are more easily visualized concepts. Simplistic example of attacking merit vs defence.

Christian Wade on the wing over Luke Fitzgerald might make a team's expected points total be 2 points more, given how much more likely he is to score tries. However, he might also be worth 3 points more to the opposition due to his relatively weaker defensive qualities. Resulting in a net loss of expected points vs Fitzgerald.

tl;dr, turnovers,interceptions,steals can have a synergic effect in sports and that's why we shouldn't lose the plot when players attempt them and 'miss'. It also makes players who are renowned for the ability worth an awful, awful lot more if replacements don't have that strength.

/end of lesson

.ak · 22-12-2014 1:55pm

So, if I understand you correctly, and I do, you're saying Leinster should sign Kobe Bryant.

Swiwi. · 22-12-2014 2:02pm

.ak wrote: »

So, if I understand you correctly, and I do, you're saying Leinster should sign Kobe Bryant.

To quote yourself .ak can we please move discussion re black players to the off-topic thread

Molester Stallone II · 22-12-2014 2:49pm

Larry Bird to Munster!!

CatFromHue · 22-12-2014 2:50pm

.ak wrote: »

So, if I understand you correctly, and I do, you're saying Leinster should sign Kobe Bryant.

We could do with an extra scrum half

thomond2006 · 22-12-2014 3:07pm

Matawalu has signed for Bath: http://www.bathrugby.com/news/team-news/thrilling-fijian-matawalu-joins-bath-rugby

Awful news for the Pro12. The bloke is guaranteed entertainment!

I wonder does this mean Peter Stringer is leaving/retiring. Also Will Genia was heavily rumoured to be going there but Stade Francais are now in for him.

errlloyd · 22-12-2014 3:09pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Matawalu has signed for Bath: http://www.bathrugby.com/news/team-news/thrilling-fijian-matawalu-joins-bath-rugby

Awful news for the Pro12. The bloke is guaranteed entertainment!

I wonder does this mean Peter Stringer is leaving/retiring. Also Will Genia was heavily rumoured to be going there but Stade Francais are now in for him.

Seems like a poor fit for Bath, with a backline like that I'd want a stringer type player who just whacks the ball straight out.

CatFromHue · 22-12-2014 3:15pm

Matawalu isn't first choice anymore, if he ever was that is.

He hasn't stared a game in Europe this season and only half the Pro12 games.

To be honest I don't see him as a major loss as half the time I think he's costing his team points.

Pudsy33 · 22-12-2014 3:17pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

Matawalu isn't first choice anymore, if he ever was that is.

He hasn't stared a game in Europe this season and only half the Pro12 games.

To be honest I don't see him as a major loss as half the time I think he's costing his team points.

Everything you say is true but my god that man is box office entertainment. At least Nakawara is sticking around.

total former · 22-12-2014 3:18pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Matawalu has signed for Bath:

Awful news for the Pro12. The bloke is guaranteed entertainment!

Shame from an entertainment point of view but he is firmly second choice at Glasgow so you can't blame him for moving on.

CatFromHue · 22-12-2014 3:23pm

It's funny to see but you do see some of the players having to restrain him from tapping and going sometimes.

His passing isn't great either.

errlloyd · 22-12-2014 3:25pm

Bath have named Burgess at 6 in an "A" game. Seems a strange choice.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/30577732

Pudsy33 · 22-12-2014 3:29pm

errlloyd wrote: »

Bath have named Burgess at 6 in an "A" game. Seems a strange choice.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/30577732

All the sounds were they wanted a backrow and England wanted a centre. It'll be interesting to see how he goes.

total former · 22-12-2014 3:32pm

errlloyd wrote: »

Bath have named Burgess at 6 in an "A" game. Seems a strange choice.

And he's listed as a forward on the Bath website. Hmmm.

thomond2006 · 22-12-2014 3:51pm

New Scarlets contracts for Liam Williams and Ken Owens: http://www.scarlets.co.uk/eng/news/7316.php

sydneybound · 22-12-2014 4:05pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

New Scarlets contracts for Liam Williams and Ken Owens: http://www.scarlets.co.uk/eng/news/7316.php

Great news for the Scarlets, hope Owen Williams comes home too but leaving Leicester might be too much of a push for him at this stage.

molloyjh · 22-12-2014 4:10pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

It's funny to see but you do see some of the players having to restrain him from tapping and going sometimes.

His passing isn't great either.

Yeah the reason he is entertaining has as much to do with the brainless mistakes as anything else. He's a bit of a liability and I wouldn't want him anywhere near Leinster.

General Rugby Discussion

Comments