General Rugby Discussion

thomond2006

awec wrote: »

Those tiers could give Leinster a group of:

Toulon
Clermont
Leinster
Wasps

Isn't there a restriction on Tier 1 and Tier 2 teams being from the same league?

sydthebeat

is there no consideration for where the cup holders are seeded?

ie if leinster had have won this year would they still be 'tier 3' due to their league position?

awec

thomond2006 wrote: »

Isn't there a restriction on Tier 1 and Tier 2 teams being from the same league?

Maybe there is. There will be a group with two French teams and a league with two English teams.

I kinda want Leinster to get that group. Good value for the season ticket.

awec

sydthebeat wrote: »

is there no consideration for where the cup holders are seeded?

ie if leinster had have won this year would they still be 'tier 3' due to their league position?

Yes, all down to league position.

irishbucsfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

is there no consideration for where the cup holders are seeded?

ie if leinster had have won this year would they still be 'tier 3' due to their league position?

Yes, it's based on league performance entirely now.

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes, it's based on league performance entirely now.

be gas if we had a "liverpool" type situation occur...
maybe when boudjellal pulls out of toulon

thomond2006

awec wrote: »

Maybe there is. There will be a group with two French teams and a league with two English teams.

I kinda want Leinster to get that group. Good value for the season ticket.

Munster, Stade Francais, Exeter, Treviso

&

Toulon, Bath, Leinster, Oyonnax

will do just fine!

Fireball07

The fact that with only 5 groups that the 2nd French team could potentially be a 2nd tier seed is kinda scary, so even if Munster win or come 2nd in the Pro12 this year, they could still have Toulon/Clermont in their group. Not what I would call a fun time.

Wang King

Australia have announced that long standing overseas based players will now be eligible for national team selection. 60 caps or 7 years service seem to be the criteria

sydneybound

Wang King wrote: »

Australia have announced that long standing overseas based players will now be eligible for national team selection. 60 caps or 7 years service seem to be the criteria

That's a 7 year contract with the ARU rather than Super Rugby team.

Few players actually qualify but I still think it's a good move as it allows long serving players who committed to Australia take the cash in France and still play for Australia. The only downside is it makes them less valuable to French clubs if they have to go on international duty but maybe at that point they will have retired from international rugby.

irishbucsfan

sydneybound wrote: »

That's a 7 year contract with the ARU rather than Super Rugby team.

Few players actually qualify but I still think it's a good move as it allows long serving players who committed to Australia take the cash in France and still play for Australia. The only downside is it makes them less valuable to French clubs if they have to go on international duty but maybe at that point they will have retired from international rugby.

If they've retired from international rugby then surely this whole thing would be irrelevant to them!

Maybe more relevant to an Elsom like guy who is older but has served for quite a while and is looking to make a lot of money in the twilight of their career while not forgoing the international game. Maybe some Toulon candidates there!

Buer

Wang King wrote: »

Australia have announced that long standing overseas based players will now be eligible for national team selection. 60 caps or 7 years service seem to be the criteria

That's a game changer in terms of some top players leaving now. Moore, Alexander, Robinson, Slipper, Horwill, Palu, Genia and AAC will all have that total broken by the start of the RWC and I'm sure they've all managed 7 contracted years, too.

The likes of Beale, JOC and Pocock will be able to do so in the following 18 months, potentially, having all been contracted since they were 20 or even younger. Even Hooper is a good bet to hit 60 caps in the next 2 years although will have to wait 4 to fulfil the 7 year requirement.

Bridge93

Will we see Matt Giteau and Drew Mitchell at the World Cup?

b.gud

Buer wrote: »

That's a game changer in terms of some top players leaving now. Moore, Alexander, Robinson, Slipper, Horwill, Palu, Genia and AAC will all have that total broken by the start of the RWC and I'm sure they've all managed 7 contracted years, too.

The likes of Beale, JOC and Pocock will be able to do so in the following 18 months, potentially, having all been contracted since they were 20 or even younger. Even Hooper is a good bet to hit 60 caps in the next 2 years although will have to wait 4 to fulfil the 7 year requirement.

is it not 60 caps or 7 years and not necessarily both

Buer

Bridge93 wrote: »

Will we see Matt Giteau and Drew Mitchell at the World Cup?

When it was reported on the radio this morning, they mentioned those two as the players who now come back into the fold, potentially. I reckon it's more to do with the future than those lads, though.

Giteau will be 33 in the RWC and Mitchell 31. I don't see Cheika drafting them in unless he's really concerned about the other options they have.

awec

I'd say it'll be for players of the future. Would be a bit of a boot in the balls to the guys who stayed in Aus if those who have been away for ages suddenly come marching in in front of them.

Swiwi.

Buer wrote: »

That's a game changer in terms of some top players leaving now. Moore, Alexander, Robinson, Slipper, Horwill, Palu, Genia and AAC will all have that total broken by the start of the RWC and I'm sure they've all managed 7 contracted years, too.

The likes of Beale, JOC and Pocock will be able to do so in the following 18 months, potentially, having all been contracted since they were 20 or even younger. Even Hooper is a good bet to hit 60 caps in the next 2 years although will have to wait 4 to fulfil the 7 year requirement.

It's a good move, but maybe last stand at the Corral. SANZAR is rapidly losing its players north, SA > Aust > NZ. It won't affect 4N results, as all participating countries affected, it won't affect June tours, because the NH generally sends down weakened sides anyway, but it might tip the balance in favour of the North in Autumn, and certainly risks doing so at RWC time. By bringing these players back into the fold, potentially Aussie rugby is stronger. I honestly don't think either Drew Mitchell or Matt Giteau on current form demand an automatic spot in a Wallabies XV. This move though means that Aussie might buy some loyalty with players toting up their half century of caps, or a few years, before heading off but remaining eligibile. TBH, the ARU hasn't too many options, they are cash strapped and Rugby is the 4th sporting winter option in Australia.

thomond2006

Giteau was in phenomenal form before his injury problems this year.

Bazzo

b.gud wrote: »

is it not 60 caps or 7 years and not necessarily both

I don't think so, it looks like the initial post was worded poorly. According to this article it's 60 caps and 7 years

http://www.rugby.com.au/News/NewsArticle/tabid/1699/ArticleID/15076/Elite-group-of-overseas-based-players-to-be-eligible-for-Qantas-Wallabies.aspx

Bridge93

I would say in about 90% of cases 60 caps and 7 years will go hand in hand. Would be rare enough to get that many in less than 7 I would've thought

Clearlier

awec wrote: »

I'd say it'll be for players of the future. Would be a bit of a boot in the balls to the guys who stayed in Aus if those who have been away for ages suddenly come marching in in front of them.

If it was for the future then they would delay it until after the world cup. This has Cheika's fingerprints all over it and I'm certain it's with a view to including players such as Giteau in the squad for the upcoming RWC.

Buer

Clearlier wrote: »

If it was for the future then they would delay it until after the world cup. This has Cheika's fingerprints all over it and I'm certain it's with a view to including players such as Giteau in the squad for the upcoming RWC.

I would think it's clarifying the situation in advance of the normal departures following every RWC. A lot of players will be in talks with European/Japanese clubs at the moment.

Clearlier

Buer wrote: »

I would think it's clarifying the situation in advance of the normal departures following every RWC. A lot of players will be in talks with European/Japanese clubs at the moment.

While I'm sure that was a consideration if it was for the future they would implement it post world cup. I'm confident that it's being done with a view to including overseas players in the squad for this coming world cup, they've even made a point of saying that it's effective immediately.

Swiwi.

Clearlier wrote: »

While I'm sure that was a consideration if it was for the future they would implement it post world cup. I'm confident that it's being done with a view to including overseas players in the squad for this coming world cup, they've even made a point of saying that it's effective immediately.

I disagree. I think it has nothing to do with the RWC, those players heading overseas will still be available for Australia in November, and I don't think Aussie need Giteau et al to do well.

It has everything to do with Aussie being short of cash, and with their players heading overseas in droves. This is a carrot to get players to stay longer in Australia to accumulate those caps/years, and also all overseas players can now play for Australia if they sign a 2 year Super Rugby contract starting the following season.

I think it's a great move by Australia, not as yet needed by NZ as we have more depth and continually emerging talent, but should help keep Aussie rugby strong.

The Lost Sheep

Worcester host Bristol in Championship this weekend. Both well clear of 3rd place ahead of playoffs. Bristol on 99 points, Worcester 96, London Scottish in third on 64. Two rounds remaining after this weekend ahead of playoffs.
Will be interesting to see how this game goes ahead of their expected clash in the final in a few weeks time

sydneybound

Big game in the Aviva Prem this weekend Northampton V Saracens.

This one is in the MK Dons stadium and tickets have gone really well, course be a stadium record sell out.

http://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2015-04-22/crucial-northampton-saints-clash-at-stadium-mk-heading-towards-a-sell-out/

Pudsy33

Lee Byrne forced to retire due to a shoulder injury. A player I alway loved to watch.

RugbyLover123

Think its a good move by Aus but I think its thinking more of the future. I don't think Mitchell would get in the Aussie squad let alone the 15. And do Aus really need Giteau that badly with Toomua at 12 who's arguably their most dangerous player?

Also watching the soccer on tv3 on Tuesday there and I remembered they are the ones showing the world cup. Does anyone know if they'll be getting HD before then? Otherwise i'll be watching on bbc, shocking quality.

errlloyd

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

Think its a good move by Aus but I think its thinking more of the future. I don't think Mitchell would get in the Aussie squad let alone the 15. And do Aus really need Giteau that badly with Toomua at 12 who's arguably their most dangerous player?

Also watching the soccer on tv3 on Tuesday there and I remembered they are the ones showing the world cup. Does anyone know if they'll be getting HD before then? Otherwise i'll be watching on bbc, shocking quality.

Well you won't be watching on BBC, that's for sure. It'll be itv or tv3 for you. They are meant to be getting their HD sorted by then.

CatFromHue

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Lee Byrne forced to retire due to a shoulder injury. A player I alway loved to watch.

They signed Byrne and Aled Brew at the start of the season which I thought'd give them a bit of a boost but both have been injured since October.

thomond2006

Bernard Laporte confirmed the signing of Quade Cooper to local press yesterday. The signing should be announced officially after the Champions Cup final.

So as it stands Toulon could name these two backlines:

Tillous-Borde, Cooper, Habana, Nonu, Bastareaud, Nalaga, Halfpenny

Pelissié, Michalak, Mitchell, Giteau, Mermoz, Tuisova, Delon

Mental.

Looks like an expensive squad alright....

Salary Cap must be very strictly enforced o'er there...

thomond2006

Deleted User wrote: »

Looks like an expensive squad alright....

Salary Cap must be very strictly enforced o'er there...

Even though they are under contract, I'd say Michalak and Mermoz will be leaving.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

Even though they are under contract, I'd say Michalak and Mermoz will be leaving.

A blow to Toulon, two players who could be paid their first €100k outside of the cap.

thomond2006

Deleted User wrote: »

A blow to Toulon, two players who could be paid their first €100k outside of the cap.

I'm not sure if they are in the France 30 or not.

In fairness I'd say the rules are strictly enforced over. The DNACG is the financial watchdog and they have relegated clubs before that have fallen foul of the rules.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm not sure if they are in the France 30 or not.

In fairness I'd say the rules are strictly enforced over. The DNACG is the financial watchdog and they have relegated clubs before that have fallen foul of the rules.

Boujadel explained very straightforwardly how they get around the cap.

Wilkinson was paid his Toulon wage for playing rugby, which sits inside the cap. Then Toulon's 'partners' also employ Johnny for media deals and sponsorship opportunities.

Wilkinson's Bank Account
Toulon Wages - €100k
'Toulon Partners' Wages - €X00k

Think about Sexton's 'package' from Leinster/DOB.

thomond2006

Thanks emmet. I'm sure Dan Carter's deal involves the same!

Btw Cooper has actually been confirmed on Toulon's website.

Fireball07

thomond2006 wrote: »

Bernard Laporte confirmed the signing of Quade Cooper to local press yesterday. The signing should be announced officially after the Champions Cup final.

So as it stands Toulon could name these two backlines:

Tillous-Borde, Cooper, Habana, Nonu, Bastareaud, Nalaga, Halfpenny

Pelissié, Michalak, Mitchell, Giteau, Mermoz, Tuisova, Delon

Mental.

Nalaga is going to Toulon too?

thomond2006

Fireball07 wrote: »

Nalaga is going to Toulon too?

Yes

irishbucsfan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Boujadel explained very straightforwardly how they get around the cap.

Wilkinson was paid his Toulon wage for playing rugby, which sits inside the cap. Then Toulon's 'partners' also employ Johnny for media deals and sponsorship opportunities.

Wilkinson's Bank Account
Toulon Wages - €100k
'Toulon Partners' Wages - €X00k

Think about Sexton's 'package' from Leinster/DOB.

They wany to bring that under the cap but it's a nightmare to legislate for and enforce.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

They wany to bring that under the cap but it's a nightmare to legislate for and enforce.

It's practically impossible.

Sangre

Deleted User wrote: »

It's practically impossible.

It wouldn't be that hard to make a pretty good go at it. Widen the net of relevant bodies to include related companies and affiliates. Include all 'tied' compensation provided to the player by any related (defined very very widely) body that is considered an inducement to player for them to play for team i.e. the player wouldn't have joined with X 'sponshorship. You're never going to tackle it unless you try. Sure there may still be some ways to get around but you could at least limit impact.

As this isn't a strictly legal matter, the burden of evidence won't need to be very high.

RuggieBear

So. I thought I would bring my 4year old nephew to his first rugby match, sale sharks vs harlequins....and I discover that Wayne bloody Barnes is reffing!

irishbucsfan

Sangre wrote: »

It wouldn't be that hard to make a pretty good go at it. Widen the net of relevant bodies to include related companies and affiliates. Include all 'tied' compensation provided to the player by any related (defined very very widely) body that is considered an inducement to player for them to play for team i.e. the player wouldn't have joined with X 'sponshorship. You're never going to tackle it unless you try. Sure there may still be some ways to get around but you could at least limit impact.

As this isn't a strictly legal matter, the burden of evidence won't need to be very high.

Which is exactly how they do it in the AP. But the extent to which it works isn't very clear at all.

Stheno

RuggieBear wrote: »

So. I thought I would bring my 4year old nephew to his first rugby match, sale sharks vs harlequins....and I discover that Wayne bloody Barnes is reffing!

Im still laughing at the outrage emanating from your post

thomond2006

Leicester 7-10 London Welsh; HT at Welford Road.

No, you are not seeing things.

matthew8

My initial reaction was Leicester must have been playing with 13 players. I'd even have been surprised for a 14 man Leicester to be losing.

Stheno

Anyone read the article about Victor o'Connell in the Irish Times today?

The Lost Sheep

Stheno wrote: »

Anyone read the article about Victor o'Connell in the Irish Times today?

No. Do you have a link to it?

Bristol beat Worcester in final round of RFU Championship today. Bristol top, Worcester second. Both will end up meeting in the final. Cant see Rotherham or London Scottish surprising either in the two legged semis. First leg of the semi finals are next Saturday

matthew8

Bristol and Worcester has to be the best promotion challenge in recent memory, you'd imagine both would have a great chance at staying up. Between them they have only managed 2 losses to the rest of the league in 40 games, with a try bonus almost every single match. At 30-26 you would imagine it was a good game, their match earlier in the season was an absolute cracker. Bristol could rue not taking their chance last year against London Welsh but they're probably marginal favourites this year.