General Rugby Discussion

Buer

Buer wrote: »

My theory on suspensions in the AP is not going anywhere soon....

No easy punishments in the premiership...

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

No easy punishments in the premiership...

We get our suspensions automatically. They really need to work hard for theirs.

You've got to respect that.

Micky Dolenz

I rewatched the 2011 HC final, definitely a game in my top ten most enjoyable games. Pure class from Leinster.

For Sextons second try, Heaslip gave JS a loop pass, he shoulder charges Dowson(i think) which opens the gap for JS, he then proceeds to continue to obstruct Dowson while JS goes over. Should it have been blown up?

From about 4.05.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meJd5gGjdGc

sydthebeat

no, a runner doesnt have to change his line and it can be easily argue that the saints player was lining him up for the tackle an not sexton. it was great play and a hallmark of schmidths attention to detail.

.ak

I remember thinking at the time Heaslip cheated a little bit, but I'm firmly in the camp that believes when cheating is gotten away with it's a thing of beauty. I thought it was a little bit of subtle law breaking that worked out perfectly.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

I remember thinking at the time Heaslip cheated a little bit, but I'm firmly in the camp that believes when cheating is gotten away with it's a thing of beauty. I thought it was a little bit of subtle law breaking that worked out perfectly.

It was the first try that Heaslip took Mujati (?) out beyond the ruck for Dricos break (3:45). That was illegal. The second try was perfectly fine as he ran his line. He arguably could have gotten out of Dowsons way but he didn't have to. Nothing at all wrong with that one. If anything Dowson allowed himself to be taken out of the game far too easily.

shuffol

Always thought that was clever play from Heaslip but a definite penalty if the ref had spotted it and would be pulled back under current rules. You could see in the replay that as soon as Heaslip gave the return pass he'd only one intention and that was to block Dowson, he even led with his shoulder to make it more effective.

molloyjh

shuffol wrote: »

Always thought that was clever play from Heaslip but a definite penalty if the ref had spotted it and would be pulled back under current rules. You could see in the replay that as soon as Heaslip gave the return pass he'd only one intention and that was to block Dowson, he even led with his shoulder to make it more effective.

But he never changed his line. That's the key. He's entitled to continue his line of running. It's obvious and cynical what he did, but totally legal.

total former

molloyjh wrote: »

But he never changed his line. That's the key. He's entitled to continue his line of running. It's obvious and cynical what he did, but totally legal.

The key thing people are missing is that, after blocking the tackler, he threw his arms into the air and waved them around a bit.

Accordingly, under rule 19.2(a), everything prior to that was grand.

aimee1

Bbc website says wasps have hit the 35m retail bond target. I dont know how this works in the real world.

They have sold all 32000 tickets for this weekends game v leicester

errlloyd

aimee1 wrote: »

Bbc website says wasps have hit the 35m retail bond target. I dont know how this works in the real world.

They have sold all 32000 tickets for this weekends game v leicester

That's pretty impressive. That club has had a serious reversal of fortunes in a short time.

Good article here from Robert Kitson on the lack of regulation and foresight that appears to be creating a dangerous feedback loop in Pro Rugby (mostly Premiership related).

I couldn't find much I didn't agree with.

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

Good article here from Robert Kitson on the lack of regulation and foresight that appears to be creating a dangerous feedback loop in Pro Rugby (mostly Premiership related).

I couldn't find much I didn't agree with.

The bit on the player welfare was particularly interesting in light of the conversations had on this side of the Irish Sea in recent weeks.

aimee1

could somehow explain how the retail bond works. 35m is a lot of money so are they getting the money as a lump and repaying slowly over time??

errlloyd

aimee1 wrote: »

could somehow explain how the retail bond works. 35m is a lot of money so are they getting the money as a lump and repaying slowly over time??

They pay their bondholders 7% a year, then in 7 years they give them their initial investment back I think.

So if you bought 5 2000 pound bonds, you bought 10,000 pounds worth. Wasps will pay you 700 pounds a year, then in year 7 they'll give you 10,700.

For Wasps it's a little bit cheaper than going to the bank and getting a big loan I think. I know you might think it is mental for them to do that, considering they're going to have to pay out like 2.5mn or so per year, and then ultimately give back the 35mn in a few years, but they've obviously worked it out.

aimee1

errlloyd wrote: »

They pay their bondholders 7% a year, then in 7 years they give them their initial investment back I think.

So if you bought 5 2000 pound bonds, you bought 10,000 pounds worth. Wasps will pay you 700 pounds a year, then in year 7 they'll give you 10,700.

For Wasps it's a little bit cheaper than going to the bank and getting a big loan I think. I know you might think it is mental for them to do that, considering they're going to have to pay out like 2.5mn or so per year, and then ultimately give back the 35mn in a few years, but they've obviously worked it out.

So in theory they can rinse and repeat this over and over again???? Rugby heading down the soccer route sadly.

total former

aimee1 wrote: »

So in theory they can rinse and repeat this over and over again???? Rugby heading down the soccer route sadly.

I don't get your objection here. This is a sustainable and transparent way to raise capital. More importantly it's something that any club could do if perhaps on a smaller scale.

I'd much rather see this, a model based on the actual viability of the business, than some rich guy coming along and funding it out of his own pocket.

errlloyd

aimee1 wrote: »

So in theory they can rinse and repeat this over and over again???? Rugby heading down the soccer route sadly.

Governments do the same thing, and almost all companies. Using bond holders to pay bond holders. Or in the case of the Irish government, when you can't find any new bond holders, using the tax payer.

In reality, if I was investing I'd have been looking for more than 7% from Wasps. They were potentially bankrupt not all that long ago. It's pretty clear the reason they are going for the bond is because they have a level of hype right now. The novelty of a new stadium, better than expected results and support and the potential of things like concerts and shopping development.

The reality is those things might wear off rather quickly. You're unsecured so if things go tits up you lose your money.

They're featured as Barclays bond of the week. If you want to read more about Barclays gives an analysis of how the club is doing as a business.

https://www.fixedincomeinvestor.co.uk/x/mem_barclays2/analysis.html?type=Bond%20of%20the%20Week&cat=Analysis%20%26%20Comment

aimee1

total former wrote: »

I don't get your objection here. This is a sustainable and transparent way to raise capital. More importantly it's something that any club could do if perhaps on a smaller scale.

I'd much rather see this, a model based on the actual viability of the business, than some rich guy coming along and funding it out of his own pocket.

Heading towards transfer fees etc. The idea of nurturing players thru academies etc is gone. The idea itself is good tho

errlloyd

total former wrote: »

I don't get your objection here. This is a sustainable and transparent way to raise capital. More importantly it's something that any club could do if perhaps on a smaller scale.

I'd much rather see this, a model based on the actual viability of the business, than some rich guy coming along and funding it out of his own pocket.

They're expecting to make about 17% of their money through rugby. This will not be a rugby club anymore. This will be a business with a rugby club on the side. A pretty comparable example would be Leinster owning the RDS, not just the stadium, the whole shebang - and possibly even Bewleys Hotel as well. Profiting from the Horse Show, the Web Summit the Young Scientist and all the rest.

Wasps will be to the Ricoh Arena what Clermont are to Michelin and Pau are to Total.

thomond2006

aimee1 wrote: »

Heading towards transfer fees etc. The idea of nurturing players thru academies etc is gone. The idea itself is good tho

???

It's a way of raising capital quickly, nothing more. I don't see how transfer fees (they do exist but they are rare) and academies have anything to do with it.

errlloyd

thomond2006 wrote: »

???

It's a way of raising capital quickly, nothing more. I don't see how transfer fees (they do exist but they are rare) and academies have anything to do with it.

Before transfer fees become a think I think longer contracts will have to become a thing.

Samu Manoa getting a 4 year contract is the beginning of that. It has nothing to do with Wasps.

RugbyLover123

World Rugby CEO Brett Gosper wants Test eligibility laws may be reviewed.

Was listening to off the ball last night and they said ROG was of the opinion that it should be 10 years and not 3, i'm very much of that opinion myself. If it continues at 3 years the international game will be ruined in a few years.

total former

It's worth noting that this Wasps deal doesn't give them a £35 million war chest for new signings. It's to convert more expensive external debt into cheaper bonds.

It will generate more cash long term but they won't be rivaling Toulon and Racing off the back of it.

total former

http://m.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/32614939

Gatland saying that Roberts will still be eligible for Wales after his move to Quins. Basically saying that the "playing abroad" rule doesn't apply to the good players. Not a good way to run a team at all.

errlloyd

total former wrote: »

It's worth noting that this Wasps deal doesn't give them a £35 million war chest for new signings. It's to convert more expensive external debt into cheaper bonds.

It will generate more cash long term but they won't be rivaling Toulon and Racing off the back of it.

Actually their external debt is at 4 percent and their bond payments will be 7 according to that article. It gives them more freedom.

Bazzo

total former wrote: »

http://m.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/32614939

Gatland saying that Roberts will still be eligible for Wales after his move to Quins. Basically saying that the "playing abroad" rule doesn't apply to the good players. Not a good way to run a team at all.

I didn't even realise there was a rule for Welsh players. Don't a lot of the Welsh team play abroad?

Faletau didn't accept the National Contract...

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

Faletau didn't accept the National Contract...

I'm a little bit surprised, to be honest. Faletau isn't a guy that strikes me as a player who thrives on a new environment. He went into his shell completely on the Lions tour, taking a long time to get going.

I don't think his stock is as high as it was a year or two ago, either. He strikes me as someone that will not prosper at all by leaving Welsh rugby. With that said, he barely tests himself at the Dragons playing Pro12 and Challenge Cup only.

total former

Deleted User wrote: »

Faletau didn't accept the National Contract...

AFAIK, the central Wales deals require the player to negotiate with his "home" region first, and only if agreement can't be reached can he then look for a move to a different region.

Turning down the current offer could be Faletau's way of looking to trade up to a better team within Wales.

BBDBB

total former wrote: »

AFAIK, the central Wales deals require the player to negotiate with his "home" region first, and only if agreement can't be reached can he then look for a move to a different region.

Turning down the current offer could be Faletau's way of looking to trade up to a better team within Wales.

you have to admire his optimism

Buer

Gloucester played for an hour with 14 men today after Kvesic (one of their best players) was sent off. They beat London Irish 35-13....they were 3-0 up when the card was shown. LI scored a consolation try in injury time at the end. Brutal.

Whosthis

Just read a piece on the Irish Times website about Garland being worried for George North's career if he suffers any more concussions. The thing I'm most shocked by is that North is still only 23, feels like he's been about forever. He should have another five/six years of improvement before he hits his peak, that's a scary thought.

Stheno

Whosthis wrote: »

Just read a piece on the Irish Times website about Garland being worried for George North's career if he suffers any more concussions. The thing I'm most shocked by is that North is still only 23, feels like he's been about forever. He should have another five/six years of improvement before he hits his peak, that's a scary thought.

Yeah just read the same

Gatland needs to have a bloody long look at himself here. North got knocked out twice in one 6N game, why the hell didn't Gatland take him straight off after the first one?

P_1

Interesting battle for the last 2 AP playoff spots coming up next week. Leicester on 64, Exeter and Saracens on 63.

Leicester v Northampton
Exeter v Sale
Welsh v Saracens

I think it's safe to assume Saracens will get 5 points next week, Exeter should win but I'm not sure about the bonus point. Tough to tell who will win in Welford Road though, could have Leicester doing a Leinster.

Also a very good chance that Welsh will end up conceding over 1000 points over the course of the season

CatFromHue

Gloria Whispering Smallpox wrote: »

Gatland needs to have a bloody long look at himself here. North got knocked out twice in one 6N game, why the hell didn't Gatland take him straight off after the first one?

yeah those were some bizarre comments from Gatland.

Stheno

CatFromHue wrote: »

yeah those were some bizarre comments from Gatland.

Seems his aim is to prevent north playing for northamptom team as if he gets another concussion he's out for six months and will miss the world cup

errlloyd

P_1 wrote: »

Interesting battle for the last 2 AP playoff spots coming up next week. Leicester on 64, Exeter and Saracens on 63.

Leicester v Northampton
Exeter v Sale
Welsh v Saracens

I think it's safe to assume Saracens will get 5 points next week, Exeter should win but I'm not sure about the bonus point. Tough to tell who will win in Welford Road though, could have Leicester doing a Leinster.

Also a very good chance that Welsh will end up conceding over 1000 points over the course of the season

Pretty weird incentives on offer too. Northampton can decide who they play in the semi effectively. If I were Northampton I'd be resting my first team.

aimee1

Stheno wrote: »

Seems his aim is to prevent north playing for northamptom team as if he gets another concussion he's out for six months and will miss the world cup

yeah never mind the guys health and well being, just get him to the world cup. Mike Brown is in similar position and not a peep about rushing him back.

CatFromHue

Stheno wrote: »

Seems his aim is to prevent north playing for northamptom team as if he gets another concussion he's out for six months and will miss the world cup

It appears you're right.

“I am hugely worried,” Gatland told The Telegraph.

“I had a meeting with his agent during the week and I said ‘Look if I was being purely selfish I would say: ‘George don’t play in the last few games, get yourself right for the World Cup’, because if he gets another knock he is going to have to be out for six months or a year or something like that.

"So that is a concern. If he is feeling confident about getting back and wanting to get on the park and play some rugby, then that’s a decision he is going to make.

"He’s been out for a considerable amount of time but it’s one of those situations where he’s such a young player if he picks up two or three more of those in the next year, that’s going to finish his career, isn’t it?”

Clearlier

CatFromHue wrote: »

It appears you're right.

I suppose it would be too much to hope that should what happened in the 6 nations happen again that Gatland might change the way that a concussion is handled within the Welsh squad?

aimee1

Euan murray has retired from international rugby

sydthebeat

http://balls.ie/rugby/287269-sergio-parisse-red-card/

these "tackle in the air" incidents REALLY needs to be seriously looked at and clarified because decisions have become farcical

CatFromHue

Dunno why he left his leg in there like that

sydthebeat

CatFromHue wrote: »

Dunno why he left his leg in there like that

that the way players are taught to catch a ball, its protects you while your eyes are on a ball in the air.

CatFromHue

Usually you have your upper leg parallel to the ground and lower leg perpendicular to the ground.

He has his whole leg parallel to the ground which is what he's got the red for imo.

Buer

sydthebeat wrote: »

that the way players are taught to catch a ball, its protects you while your eyes are on a ball in the air.

They're not taught to leave their leg up like this:



A red is harsh given the mitigating circumstances but I don't believe it caused him to bring his leg up so far and directly into the path of the Dulin's landing. I think a yellow would have been fair but red isn't as bad a decision as the article makes out.

Clearlier

CatFromHue wrote: »

Usually you have your upper leg parallel to the ground and lower leg perpendicular to the ground.

He has his whole leg parallel to the ground which is what he's got the red for imo.

He jumps and is tugged back. That will have an impact on his equlibrium. In any case, two players in the air, both with eyes on the ball and a realistic chance of catching it should never be a red card. I see a huge difference between something like this where Parisse is getting off the ground despite interference and the Finn Russell incident where he stayed on the ground.

sydthebeat

parisse's leg is bent at the knee in his jump... see the attached screen shot.
dulins knee is also bent at the knee in his jump

its dulin jumping into parisses leg which cause it to extend.

it seems ridiculous now that you get sent off for failing to catch a contestable kick, becuase thats exactly the situation that we are at currently.