General Rugby Discussion

thomond2006

It's hard to feel sorry for him. He's had nine lives with England and Lancaster.

It's all self inflicted.

OldRio

Hartley headbuts George. Is then dropped by England. George comes in to take his place.:D

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11638104/Dylan-Hartley-dropped-from-England-World-Cup-training-squad-by-Stuart-Lancaster-following-ban-for-headbutt.html

matthew8

Considering this offense being the one that gets him kicked off the team and all the other stuff he's done, real case of the straw that broke the camel's back. Real shame because he's a really good player.

total former

thomond2006 wrote: »

It's hard to feel sorry for him. He's had nine lives with England and Lancaster.

I have some sympathy for him because I would say opponents definitely set out to get under his skin, but if Lancaster had previously warned him about it, then fair play to him for sticking to his guns. The "arm around the shoulder" approach favoured by Mallinder hasn't worked so maybe it's time for tough love.

Interesting that Lancaster is now voluntarily depriving himself of three very good players and likely starters in Hartley, Tuilagi and Steffon Armitage.

irishbucsfan

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Missed two WC and a lions tour because of his stupidity on the pitch. Such a waste....he's a talented rugby player.

A waste is exactly what it is. A shame he can't sort himself out but he's had every opportunity to.

errlloyd

With Hartley, Tualagi and Armitage Lancaster has refused to pick based largely on his own principles, and I have to say I have a huge amount of respect for it. I'll support that England team.

CatFromHue

There's a lot of logic in why Lancaster isn't going to pick Hartley, if the ban was shorter he would have been picked.

Sangre

CatFromHue wrote: »

There's a lot of logic in why Lancaster isn't going to pick Hartley, if the ban was shorter he would have been picked.

I don't disagree but the guy is a total liability. England are better off.

irishbucsfan

CatFromHue wrote: »

There's a lot of logic in why Lancaster isn't going to pick Hartley, if the ban was shorter he would have been picked.

He only would have missed the opening fixture, which is Fiji. I doubt a game against Fiji, in their current state, is why he's been dropped. It's because he's a total liability.

aimee1

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He only would have missed the opening fixture, which is Fiji. I doubt a game against Fiji, in their current state, is why he's been dropped. It's because he's a total liability.

missing the warm ups too. So when they play crunch games he is totally cold. 4 months without a game

bilston

total former wrote: »

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/may/29/nz-rugby-report-reveals-overseas-offers-not-ballooning

Interesting comments from Steve Tew here, suggests that the figures that we heard being thrown around for Piutau might not be accurate.

This may or may not be true but it is certainly in his interests to let people think the offers aren't as lucrative as has been reported.

total former

bilston wrote: »

This may or may not be true but it is certainly in his interests to let people think the offers aren't as lucrative as has been reported.

How so?

Does it not reflect worse on the NZRU if their players are leaving for reasons other than cold, hard cash? Wouldn't it suit Tew better to say "look, we tried our best to keep Slade/Piutau/whoever but we just can't match what's on offer in France?"

(Disclaimer: I have a bee in my bonnet about sums being plucked out of the air by less-than-rigorous websites, then treated evermore as fact).

English Lurker

aimee1 wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/32931690

hartley to be dropped by england according to this

CatFromHue

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He only would have missed the opening fixture, which is Fiji. I doubt a game against Fiji, in their current state, is why he's been dropped. It's because he's a total liability.

He misses all the warm ups so won't be match ready for the games against Oz and Wales.

Also Lancaster made the good point that if they bring him and one of the hookers get injured before the Fiji game then they'll only have one fit hooker for that game. You're meant to have a sub hooker on the bench which they won't be able to achieve then.

Swiwi.

The other major talking point was imminent confirmation the British & Irish Lions will play Super Rugby franchises, and probably New Zealand Maori, when they tour in 2017.

Dates are yet to be announced but the Lions are expected to tour in June, during Super Rugby's break period. In all likelihood that means the provinces will miss out as they won't be training at that point in the season.

"We're still in discussions with the Lions about the exact nature of the tour," Tew said. "We're talking days rather than weeks changing. Until we get to that point we won't be making any announcements.

"We've still got a bit of work to do with a couple of venues but we are well progressed. In some point within the next month or two that will be a big announcement.

"It's reasonably obvious that at the time they're here Super Rugby is still underway and provincial teams haven't been convened so it's fair to say the majority of the itinerary is going to look like that."

Asked whether New Zealand Maori would also be allocated a game against the Lions, as they were in the historic 19-13 win in 2005, Tew's response was positive.

aimee1

scarlets lost over €2m in last financial year. BBC website has a story about it.

CatFromHue

In 2013 the Lions played 6 games against club/Super teams in Oz so there should be room for a game against the NZ Maori.

Wk1: Sat: BaaBaas, Wed: Highlanders
Wk2: Sat: Chiefs, Wed: Blues
Wk3: Sat: Crusaders , Wed: Maori
Wk4: Sat: NZ, Tue: Hurricanes
Wk5: Sat: NZ
Wk6: Sat: NZ

That's some tour schedule!

I wonder if the Lions are thinking of trying to get a test match earlier in the schedule than the last 3 Saturdays?

sydthebeat

Any need for a baa baas game with a schedule like that?
Or is it a contractual given?

CatFromHue

There's no need for it at all but I just presumed it's a money spinner and that's why they do it.

It actually hinders the tour playing wise if you ask me.

sydthebeat

CatFromHue wrote: »

There's no need for it at all but I just presumed it's a money spinner and that's why they do it.

It actually hinders the tour playing wise if you ask me.

Yeah a baa baas game in nz could be spreading the jam pretty thin, if it's during the season.

A maoris game is much more attractive and easier to fullfill.

Swiwi.

total former wrote: »

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/may/29/nz-rugby-report-reveals-overseas-offers-not-ballooning

Interesting comments from Steve Tew here, suggests that the figures that we heard being thrown around for Piutau might not be accurate.

Think you're clutching at straws. The NZ Herald journalists consistently reporting on the season's transfers have been right on the money, so as to speak.

This is an interesting article, at least for me.

sydneybound

Reported on twitter...

The 3 star Samoan players at last years U20 RWC are back for this year's tournament in Italy.Playing for New Zealand #nothingchanges #rugby

The good old kiwi's up to their usual tricks!

English Lurker

sydneybound wrote: »

Reported on twitter...

The 3 star Samoan players at last years U20 RWC are back for this year's tournament in Italy.Playing for New Zealand #nothingchanges #rugby

The good old kiwi's up to their usual tricks!

Not sure if serious?

All three of those players played New Zealand schools. This isn't New Zealand suddenly reaching out to yank away Samoan players who'd they never heard of before after a brainwashing program, it's New Zealand picking players who they've produced who want to play for them. It's pretty commonplace for the Baby Blacks to only pick players in their last year of eligibility, and for players who can to play for Samoa or Tonga a year young as a result. Everyone knows some of those players will turn out for New Zealand the next year.

sydneybound

It was retweeted by Brian O'Driscoll written by a journalist from the rugby paper.

total former

Swiwi. wrote: »

Think you're clutching at straws. The NZ Herald journalists consistently reporting on the season's transfers have been right on the money, so as to speak.

This is an interesting article, at least for me.

Meh, it doesn't really affect me enough to be clutching at straws, just thought it was an interesting comment. As I asked another poster, how would it serve Tew's purposes to lie about this?

(Also, to know the journalists are "on the money", you'd need independent confirmation of the figures. I'm not sure we have that.)

Like I said though, it's the fact that he made this comment at all that I find interesting.

Swiwi.

English Lurker wrote: »

Not sure if serious?

All three of those players played New Zealand schools. This isn't New Zealand suddenly reaching out to yank away Samoan players who'd they never heard of before after a brainwashing program, it's New Zealand picking players who they've produced who want to play for them. It's pretty commonplace for the Baby Blacks to only pick players in their last year of eligibility, and for players who can to play for Samoa or Tonga a year young as a result. Everyone knows some of those players will turn out for New Zealand the next year.

Please don't ruin a good story English Lurker.

Swiwi.

total former wrote: »

Meh, it doesn't really affect me enough to be clutching at straws, just thought it was an interesting comment. As I asked another poster, how would it serve Tew's purposes to lie about this?

(Also, to know the journalists are "on the money", you'd need independent confirmation of the figures. I'm not sure we have that.)

Like I said though, it's the fact that he made this comment at all that I find interesting.

The other way to interpret it is that if the figures haven't changed much than Mauger & Evans were also on such salaries in 2008 rather than Piutau being offered relative peanuts.

CatFromHue

English Lurker wrote: »

Not sure if serious?

All three of those players played New Zealand schools. This isn't New Zealand suddenly reaching out to yank away Samoan players who'd they never heard of before after a brainwashing program, it's New Zealand picking players who they've produced who want to play for them. It's pretty commonplace for the Baby Blacks to only pick players in their last year of eligibility, and for players who can to play for Samoa or Tonga a year young as a result. Everyone knows some of those players will turn out for New Zealand the next year.

I don't know if this is true but I could well believe it.

There's a big number of Samoan international players who were born and raised in NZ.

George Hook

Swiwi. wrote: »

The other way to interpret it is that if the figures haven't changed much than Mauger & Evans were also on such salaries in 2008 rather than Piutau being offered relative peanuts.

When I read it the other day it just seemed to concentrate on individual spending rather than the total amount being spent on NZ players - which I'm sure has gone up.

You'd also need to consider the total potential amount that could have been spent with some deals being turned down that could have gone ahead.

I'd say there is a lot more money being chucked at NZ rugby players these days overall.

Swiwi.

George Hook wrote: »

When I read it the other day it just seemed to concentrate on individual spending rather than the total amount being spent on NZ players - which I'm sure has gone up.

You'd also need to consider the total potential amount that could have been spent with some deals being turned down that could have gone ahead.

I'd say there is a lot more money being chucked at NZ rugby players these days overall.

TBH if it took losing Piutau to retain savea and retallick, I'll take that. Actually the nzrpa has a website which anyone can browse. It has all sorts of advice for players about dealing with agents and a charter etc. I was quite impressed. Would easily be applicable to players outside NZ. To me it makes sense not to keep playing senior players truckloads just because they're veterans. I find the economics behind all this quite interesting.

George Hook

Swiwi. wrote: »

TBH if it took losing Piutau to retain savea and retallick, I'll take that. Actually the nzrpa has a website which anyone can browse. It has all sorts of advice for players about dealing with agents and a charter etc. I was quite impressed. Would easily be applicable to players outside NZ. To me it makes sense not to keep playing senior players truckloads just because they're veterans. I find the economics behind all this quite interesting.

Yeah agree with you there. And yes it's very interesting to watch the economics of it all, the landscape has changed so much because of them and it'll be interesting to see where they go.

Apple All Blacks anyone?

*not that apple would ever be interested in buying or indeed NZ ever interested in selling.. for now.

Swiwi.

George Hook wrote: »

Yeah agree with you there. And yes it's very interesting to watch the economics of it all, the landscape has changed so much because of them and it'll be interesting to see where they go.

Apple All Blacks anyone?

*not that apple would ever be interested in buying or indeed NZ ever interested in selling.. for now.

Guinness All Blacks...

total former

English Lurker wrote: »

Not sure if serious?

All three of those players played New Zealand schools. This isn't New Zealand suddenly reaching out to yank away Samoan players who'd they never heard of before after a brainwashing program, it's New Zealand picking players who they've produced who want to play for them. It's pretty commonplace for the Baby Blacks to only pick players in their last year of eligibility, and for players who can to play for Samoa or Tonga a year young as a result. Everyone knows some of those players will turn out for New Zealand the next year.

Genuine question; did the players in question grow up in New Zealand, or did they attend school in New Zealand?

bilston

So we lose to the Barbarians and England are 50 points up against them after 42 minutes.

I hope the Baabaas have been on the p*** aince Thursday night!

Swiwi.

total former wrote: »

Genuine question; did the players in question grow up in New Zealand, or did they attend school in New Zealand?

Genuine reply: I don't know. You'd have to ask sydneybound, he clearly researched it all before posting. Based on statistics they are maybe 90% likely to have been born in NZ I'd say (from memory there are more Pacific Islanders in Auckland than the 3 islands combined). I think Charles Piutau played for Tonga U20s but once again from memory he was born in NZ. It's a lost cause this debate anyway ignorance is bliss for most.

#drunkenpaddies
#hackneyedcliches

bilston

Christian Wade...that's embarrassing

Taco Corp

Swiwi. wrote: »

Guinness All Blacks...

a white collar would be a must in that case

George Hook

bilston wrote: »

So we lose to the Barbarians and England are 50 points up against them after 42 minutes.

I hope the Baabaas have been on the p*** aince Thursday night!

73-12 Ft to Eng.

sydneybound

An article was published in the Rugby Paper today. Here is a photo of it, you'll need to voom in to read it fully. Luteru Laulala was born in Samoa while Henry Stowers has an uncle a former Samoa player not sure about the other fella. What I posted earlier was retweeted by Brian O'Discoll and several others.

Some very defensive posts and here...

Swiwi.

sydneybound wrote: »

An article was published in the Rugby Paper today. Here is a photo of it, you'll need to voom in to read it fully. Luteru Laulala was born in Samoa while Henry Stowers has an uncle a former Samoa player not sure about the other fella. What I posted earlier was retweeted by Brian O'Discoll and several others.

Some very defensive posts and here...

Sorry, I just get irritated by the inherent racism in uneducated and unresearched newspaper articles such as these. Did the journalist ask the players whether they were coerced into playing for NZ? Did he ask the Samoan coach whether he was denied players against his will? Did he ask the players whether they feel equally Kiwi and Samoan? No just ruthless NZ raping and pillaging the Islands. If the journalist is English, hypocrisy to the max. And if he's Irish too: all your 3-year project players that are going to line up for Ireland in October.

Last week, Ireland voted for gay marriage. But in this apparently enlightened day and age, if you have brown skin and a heap of vowels in your name, well you can't be Kiwi then, can you.

TBH, once you actually get to Sydney, sydneybound, you'll find out that a lot of Australians aren't just descended from Irish victims of the famine, labelled often unfairly as criminals, and shipped out to the colony. You'll see a lot of Asians, Greeks, Italians...and Pacific Islanders. A few Kiwis too.

I'll wager that there will be more players not born in England playing for England than not born in NZ playing for NZ.

I dunno why I get so irritated by this crap, maybe it's because my Dad is South African, and he left South Africa in part because of Apartheid, but I grew up in a family that didn't judge people by the colour of their skin, and certainly if you're born in NZ (or arrived at a young age) and grew up there, I couldn't give a F if your parents or grandparents came from Tonga, if you are happy of your own free will to put on a black jersey, then you are worthy of it.

Right, I take a chill pill and leave it there, must be at least the 5th time I respond to the usual uneducated, ill-informed, and plain ignorant waffle.

hahashake

Not sure what to say, if only 1/3 is born in Samoa and all are living in NZ and eligible then where is the poaching? Can selecting a player born in your country ever be considered poaching?

The article says that 2 of them were at the NZ trial last year but didn't make the cut so played for Samoa instead. Seems to me that this strengthened the Samoan team. Much like the 15 NZ born Samoan players at the last world cup. I'd imagine the number will be similar this year. Perhaps the option to make U20 representation binding is a solution, but ask yourself, would this help or hurt the Samoan cause? If you are a young player of Samoan descent in NZ, are you going to opt for Samoa over the All Blacks?

matthew8

Gloucester ahead 16-0 in the match for Europe. If they hold on they have to count themselves extremely lucky. Home draw in Challenge Cup semi, essentially home in the final by playing Edinburgh in England, home drawn for playoff semi and very lucky with referee, and now the home country for the final.

sydneybound

The article was in the rugby paper and written by Brendan Gallagher, below is his Twitter account go down over the last day and you'll see he says that Tonga, Fiji and Samoa are all feeder teams to NZ. Not my comment his, read for yourself

https://mobile.twitter.com/gallagherbren

No need to direct your reply at me! This is a topical story at the moment and the original tweet was retweeted nearly 300 times and by some high profile people so is in the public domain.

Swiwi.

sydneybound wrote: »

The article was in the rugby paper and written by Brendan Gallagher, below is his Twitter account go down over the last day and you'll see he says that Tonga, Fiji and Samoa are all feeder teams to NZ. Not my comment his, read for yourself

https://mobile.twitter.com/gallagherbren

No need to direct your reply at me! This is a topical story at the moment and the original tweet was retweeted nearly 300 times and by some high profile people so is in the public domain.

Did you not say "the good old Kiwis up to their usual tricks!"? Or was that a direct quote from Brendan Gallagher too?

I would say Tonga, Fiji & Samoa are all feeder teams to English and French clubs TBH. NZ has very little need to poach from the Islands, given how many Pacific Islanders already live in NZ.

Anyway, I don't know who the patron saint of lost causes is, and this is definitely a lost cause. People will believe what they want to, and it's basically considered fact that NZ is constantly raiding the Islands. I guess genuine investigative journalism is a lost art.

sydneybound

Was a tongue-in-cheek comment hence the exclamation mark and obvious controversial nature.

Look I think this a wider issue and isn't sat with NZR who get the brunt of the blame, world rugby need to sort it out. Scraping the three year rule and bring in a 5 or even 7 year residency rule as some rugby journalists have suggested is the way to go. While some degree of safe guarding the island nations is required or they simply won't be competitive in years to come thus weakening the international game. The Tonga rugby boss recently spoke about it; http://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/rugby-world-cup-2015-pacific-island-nations-cup-hopes-dashed-by-greedy-clubs-unrealistic-players/story-e6frf4pu-1227371563082

For example I looked at the extended Fiji WC squad and if they get their act together could be a serious outfit, and thats not what to think if Nathan Hughes, Noa Nakaitacu and Josna Tuisova were included.

Hagz

John Afoa does it again. Gets himself and Denis Buckley sent off last week and then again today. There's a theme there somewhere refs..

Swiwi.

sydneybound wrote: »

Was a tongue-in-cheek comment hence the exclamation mark and obvious controversial nature.

Look I think this a wider issue and isn't sat with NZR who get the brunt of the blame, world rugby need to sort it out. Scraping the three year rule and bring in a 5 or even 7 year residency rule as some rugby journalists have suggested is the way to go. While some degree of safe guarding the island nations is required or they simply won't be competitive in years to come thus weakening the international game. The Tonga rugby boss recently spoke about it; http://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/rugby-world-cup-2015-pacific-island-nations-cup-hopes-dashed-by-greedy-clubs-unrealistic-players/story-e6frf4pu-1227371563082

For example I looked at the extended Fiji WC squad and if they get their act together could be a serious outfit, and thats not what to think if Nathan Hughes, Noa Nakaitacu and Josna Tuisova were included.

Look I agree. But there's also this: Fiji has (or at least had) a military dictatorship. Samoan rugby union has more than a hint of the Sepp Blatter about it, Tonga is a Kingdom run on healthy doses of nepotism.

I'm not saying NZ are lily white but all of the major rugby nations and major clubs love their piece of Pacific Pie. Just somehow NZ are the only sinners in all this. Probably in part because of their world ranking, tall poppies and all that.

In theory Gallagher could have written a scathing article about Samoa poaching 18 NZ born players from the All Black selection pool in 2011, but it just doesn't fit the perceived notions.

English Lurker

Changing the residency rules, while greatly needed, doesn't alter the main problem of FiSamTo, which is that guys trying to make a living off rugby are frequently going to be uninterested in jeopardising their livelihood to participate in the quixotic. Maybe Fiji or Samoa would have Nathan Hughes this World Cup if he wasn't holding out for England, but I doubt they'd see much of him in between tournaments, and how much good does that actually do them? Look at Alex Tuilagi, who somehow only picked up 29 caps in an 11 year international career.

In general, there's less manure in dairy farming than there is in journalism on the NZ-PI connection. It's a bit exasperating to see it done again and again, particularly considering the hypocrisy involved when it comes from these isles, where nationality is very tangled and poaching rife. Was there an outcry when Piers O'Connor and Kieran Treadwell were included in the England U20 squad? I don't recall one, but the situation is nigh-identical.

Hagz

YYYYEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSS!!!!

Bordeaux beat Gloucester with a DG in the 80th minute. They're in the Champions Cup!