General Rugby Discussion

irishbucsfan · 22-09-2015 12:32pm

I don't think we're close to being able to support a 24 team competition, I don't think we can even fully support a 20 team tournament.

However one positive addition IMO would be a secondary trophy. I'd love to see a 20 team tournament where the 3rd/4th place teams go into a plate competition of some sort. For example imagine our quarter finalists are Eng/Aus/RSA/Scot/NZ/Arg/Ire/Fra, then a secondary knockout structure could be Wales/Fiji/Samoa/Japan/Georgia/Tonga/Italy/Canada.

That could 1) be really competitive, 2) add lots more intrigue to the group stages, 4) create more games to sell rights/tickets for and 3) give middle tier developing nations something to get their fans behind.

EDIT: Just out of interest, and matching the same pools, those games would be:

Wales v. Japan
Samoa v. Fiji
Georgia v. Canada
Italy v. Tonga

I'd love that anyway!

Yeah_Right · 22-09-2015 1:00pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't think we're close to being able to support a 24 team competition, I don't think we can even fully support a 20 team tournament.

However one positive addition IMO would be a secondary trophy. I'd love to see a 20 team tournament where the 3rd/4th place teams go into a plate competition of some sort. For example imagine our quarter finalists are Eng/Aus/RSA/Scot/NZ/Arg/Ire/Fra, then a secondary knockout structure could be Wales/Fiji/Samoa/Japan/Georgia/Tonga/Italy/Canada.

That could 1) be really competitive, 2) add lots more intrigue to the group stages, 4) create more games to sell rights/tickets for and 3) give middle tier developing nations something to get their fans behind.

EDIT: Just out of interest, and matching the same pools, those games would be:

Wales v. Japan
Samoa v. Fiji
Georgia v. Canada
Italy v. Tonga

I'd love that anyway!

I'd like to see that as well. All the 7s tournaments do it. Plate, Bowl and Cup play offs, I think.

You could push it 1 further and have the 5th place teams go into a knockout comp with the next 4 in the world rankings.

The Lost Sheep · 22-09-2015 1:10pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I'd like to see that as well. All the 7s tournaments do it. Plate, Bowl and Cup play offs, I think.

You could push it 1 further and have the 5th place teams go into a knockout comp with the next 4 in the world rankings.

I don't think we should run Plate/Bowl competitions for the most senior world competition rugby has. Id prefer more continental styled competitions in non world cup years and events like that than a plate/bowl/cup scenario in the main competition which would give sides like Fiji/Tonga more regular games against Australia/New Zealand, Namibia/Kenya games against South Africa, Georgia/Romania games against 6 Nations etc

7s competitions can run Cup/Plate/Bowl events as players would only be playing 40 minutes or so over a weekend otherwise and they can play them all over 2 days.

irishbucsfan · 22-09-2015 1:28pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I don't think we should run Plate/Bowl competitions for the most senior world competition rugby has.

Why not? Does it take away from the main competition somehow? I don't think it does personally.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Id prefer more continental styled competitions in non world cup years and events like that than a plate/bowl/cup scenario in the main competition which would give sides like Fiji/Tonga more regular games against Australia/New Zealand, Namibia/Kenya games against South Africa, Georgia/Romania games against 6 Nations etc

I'd like to see that as well. Don't think it really conflicts.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

7s competitions can run Cup/Plate/Bowl events as players would only be playing 40 minutes or so over a weekend otherwise and they can play them all over 2 days.

That's a good reason to play those games. It doesn't apply to other competitions, but there are other reasons to do it in this case.

The Lost Sheep · 22-09-2015 1:34pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Why not? Does it take away from the main competition somehow? I don't think it does personally.

I think it slightly does take away from the main competition. Anyone from "tier 2" countries want more games like continental championships with games against "tier 1" countries and more games in June/November against tier 1 countries than plate/bowl competitions at a world cup

I'd like to see that as well. Don't think it really conflicts.

Countries from tier 2/3 need more games against teams from a higher level on a regular basis like every june/November not more one off games every 4 years which is all this idea would do.

smiley_face · 22-09-2015 1:36pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't think we're close to being able to support a 24 team competition, I don't think we can even fully support a 20 team tournament.

However one positive addition IMO would be a secondary trophy. I'd love to see a 20 team tournament where the 3rd/4th place teams go into a plate competition of some sort. For example imagine our quarter finalists are Eng/Aus/RSA/Scot/NZ/Arg/Ire/Fra, then a secondary knockout structure could be Wales/Fiji/Samoa/Japan/Georgia/Tonga/Italy/Canada.

That could 1) be really competitive, 2) add lots more intrigue to the group stages, 4) create more games to sell rights/tickets for and 3) give middle tier developing nations something to get their fans behind.

EDIT: Just out of interest, and matching the same pools, those games would be:

Wales v. Japan
Samoa v. Fiji
Georgia v. Canada
Italy v. Tonga

I'd love that anyway!

The 4 bottom placed teams could also play off for a 3rd prize, and a wooden spoon perhaps, just as I'd like the "minnows" to get more test matches to help them progress and develop.

irishbucsfan · 22-09-2015 1:45pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I think it slightly does take away from the main competition. Anyone from "tier 2" countries want more games like continental championships with games against "tier 1" countries and more games in June/November against tier 1 countries than plate/bowl competitions at a world cup

In what way does it take away from the main competition? I don't understand that bit.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Countries from tier 2/3 need more games against teams from a higher level on a regular basis like every june/November not more one off games every 4 years which is all this idea would do.

Yeah, I'm aware of that. That's got nothing to do with this though, that's something that should be done in parallel. I'm sure they'd love an opportunity to win silverware with the whole world, and their own country, watching. It leads to benefits that more games against tier 1 nations can't provide, which is why there's no reason not to do both.

The Lost Sheep · 22-09-2015 1:51pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

In what way does it take away from the main competition? I don't understand that bit.

Maybe takes away from the tournament was wrong phrase but the tier 2 supporters don't want it. If not qualifying as one of the 20/24 teams they don't want to be playing a second tier competition with small crowds in small venues with relatively small crowds/tv etc

Yeah, I'm aware of that. That's got nothing to do with this though, that's something that should be done in parallel. I'm sure they'd love an opportunity to win silverware with the whole world, and their own country, watching. It leads to benefits that more games against tier 1 nations can't provide, which is why there's no reason not to do both.

This is everything to do with it. World Rugby aren't going to run another tournament at same time as their biggest event. Will whole world be watching this second tier event?

irishbucsfan · 22-09-2015 1:53pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Maybe takes away from the tournament was wrong phrase but the tier 2 supporters don't want it. If not qualifying as one of the 20/24 teams they don't want to be playing a second tier competition with small crowds in small venues with relatively small crowds/tv etc
This is everything to do with it. World Rugby aren't going to run another tournament at same time as their biggest event. Will whole world be watching this second tier event?

Ah, I don't think you've read my post properly. I'm not talking about running another tournament at all. This is not about the teams outside the 20.

iroced · 22-09-2015 1:54pm

Just to support irishbucsfan here, basket-ball and handball do what he's suggesting and it absolutely does not take away anything from the main competition.

Small teams proudly fight for their WC rankings. Though I must mention it's important for Olympic Games qualification. But it became a "tradition" now and I think it'll make no harm to implement it in the RWC.

The Lost Sheep · 22-09-2015 2:00pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah, I don't think you've read my post properly. I'm not talking about running another tournament at all. This is not about the teams outside the 20.

Ah right... but still don't see any need or desire for this. We don't see it at any other competitions and its just unnecessary. The 12 countries who don't make the last 8 wont really want to play any more games. Do you really think whichever of Australia/England/Wales or France/Ireland/Italy don't make the quarters this time round would want to play another game or two? Of course not and why would they?

sydthebeat · 22-09-2015 2:01pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Ah right... but still don't see any need or desire for this. We don't see it at any other competitions and its just unnecessary. The 12 countries who don't make the last 8 wont really want to play any more games. Do you really think whichever of Australia/England/Wales or France/Ireland/Italy don't make the quarters this time round would want to play another game or two? Of course not and why would they?

we see it in sevens all the time

The Lost Sheep · 22-09-2015 2:02pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

we see it in sevens all the time

I meant 15 a side competitions at senior level.

wp_rathead · 22-09-2015 2:05pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I meant 15 a side competitions at senior level.

Well you see it in JWC
I agree it would be pointless though in RWC

Winters · 22-09-2015 3:14pm

A number of the amateur and semi-pro players in the lower team countries have to return to jobs and college so that might be a current factor.

The Lost Sheep · 22-09-2015 3:27pm

wp_rathead wrote: »

Well you see it in JWC
I agree it would be pointless though in RWC

Junior World Championships is an age grade competition and isn't senior and I just think it wont happen as it isn't wanted or needed. Countries would be much better off with more work being put into competitions and countries giving access to best players in all the time in between world cups than anything more in the short period in and around the world cup
As the signatures of one of the main posters goes on the tier 2 rugby forum
"If they're good enough to play at World Cups, then why not in between?". A second tier competition isn't good enough the next tier sides need games in between the world cups and not plate/subsidiary competitions every 4 years

Yeah_Right · 22-09-2015 3:51pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Ah right... but still don't see any need or desire for this. We don't see it at any other competitions and its just unnecessary. The 12 countries who don't make the last 8 wont really want to play any more games. Do you really think whichever of Australia/England/Wales or France/Ireland/Italy don't make the quarters this time round would want to play another game or two? Of course not and why would they?

Don't you think Tonga, Georgia, Japan, USA, Fiji, Romania etc. would like a crack at a tier 1 nation in a knock comp at a RWC? Use the smaller venues. Get the crowds in. More games on TV. I think it would be great.

It also means that I don't go from watching multiple games 5 days a week down to just a couple of games on the weekends. Give me more live rugby to watch!!!

The Lost Sheep · 22-09-2015 3:54pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Don't you think Tonga, Georgia, Japan, USA, Fiji, Romania etc. would like a crack at a tier 1 nation in a knock comp at a RWC? Use the smaller venues. Get the crowds in. More games on TV. I think it would be great.

It also means that I don't go from watching multiple games 5 days a week down to just a couple of games on the weekends. Give me more live rugby to watch!!!

I think they would rather regular games in the period between world cups every day of the week before some form of one off game every 4 years as that alone isn't good for them. Looks great for the tier 1 sides and World Rugby to say look at what we're doing for the next sides down the ladder.
If Tier 2 teams got regular games against Tier 1 teams, either through regional tournaments or friendlies, then we could say that the RWC isn't the only avenue for Tier 2 development against the best. The tier 2 nations need more games every year against the best

Or in the words of another poster on a forum looking at tier 2 rugby "a second tier World Cup is not a 'World Cup' of any description because it will not produce a World Champion. It's simply a meaningless international tournament."

Yeah_Right · 22-09-2015 4:02pm

I'm not saying do on or the other. I agree that more tests for the Tier 2 nations in November and June against Tier 1 opponents would be a huge help for them. But why not a knock out round in the RWC as well? Other sports do it at world champs and Olympics. I would also support a relegation play off for the 6 Nations or expanding it further to the 7 or 8 Nations (probably not realistic).

The Lost Sheep · 22-09-2015 4:08pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I'm not saying do on or the other. I agree that more tests for the Tier 2 nations in November and June against Tier 1 opponents would be a huge help for them. But why not a knock out round in the RWC as well? Other sports do it at world champs and Olympics. I would also support a relegation play off for the 6 Nations or expanding it further to the 7 or 8 Nations (probably not realistic).

The tier 2 nations don't want that from all ive seen from their supporters etc.
They need more games outside world cups
They don't want second tier world cup competition. They want to be included much much more on the IRB tours schedule like this. Its set for next 10 year. We only go to a non "tier 1" nation the year of the next world cup and during the next 2 lions tours therefore we have weakened sides.
2016 South Africa
2017 Japan - Lions
2018 Australia
2019 RWC (Japan)
2020 Argentina
2021 Pacific Islands - Lions
2022 Australia
2023 RWC No Summer Tours

Expanding the 6 nations would be great but is it possible with clubs demands in England/France? No IMO.
Proper pan European championship once every 4 years instead of a 6 nations would be great but that wont happen.

Yeah_Right · 22-09-2015 4:19pm

I know 6 nations expansion won't happen due to club pressures.

No one is talking of a Tier 2 World Cup. We are talking about knock out matches for teams who finish 3rd and 4th in the pools at the RWC. It will be a mix of Tiers 1 & 2.

The Lost Sheep · 22-09-2015 4:28pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I know 6 nations expansion won't happen due to club pressures.

No one is talking of a Tier 2 World Cup. We are talking about knock out matches for teams who finish 3rd and 4th in the pools at the RWC. It will be a mix of Tiers 1 & 2.

I don't see any need or want for it?
Say we lose to Italy and France in the next few weeks will POC, Sexton etc really want another game? No they wont they will want to get back to their provinces and play there.
The tier 2 nations don't want it either.
If the teams that finish 3rd/4th get playoffs should those who lose quarter finals play off as well?

Yeah_Right · 22-09-2015 4:49pm

:DIt wouldn't matter if the players wanted to play. Do think they want to play the 3rd/4th play off? RWC, test match. They have to play.

And most importantly, I get to watch more rugby and therefore drink more beer

timaru89 · 23-09-2015 8:42am

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

They want to be included much much more on the IRB tours schedule like this. Its set for next 10 year. We only go to a non "tier 1" nation the year of the next world cup and during the next 2 lions tours therefore we have weakened sides.
2016 South Africa
2017 Japan - Lions
2018 Australia
2019 RWC (Japan)
2020 Argentina
2021 Pacific Islands - Lions
2022 Australia
2023 RWC No Summer Tours

Where did you get this schedule? No NZ tours?

The Lost Sheep · 23-09-2015 9:59am

timaru89 wrote: »

Where did you get this schedule? No NZ tours?

The IRB/World Rugby publish tours schedules for the june/November tours and its a set agreement made years in advance. It was announced before the last tour to New Zealand in 2012 that it was our last tour there for 12 years....

Below is the Scottish tours for the next few years
http://www.scottishrugby.org/news/10/05/25/robinson-welcomes-irb-tours-schedule

The welsh schedule is this:
2016: three-Test tour of New Zealand
2017: tour Pacific Islands (British & Irish Lions in New Zealand)
2018: two/three test tour of Argentina
2019: Rugby World Cup (Japan)

.ak · 24-09-2015 10:29am

Anyone know where I can buy 15mm metal studs in town (Dublin)? Ordered some from LifeStyle and they sent out the wrong ones :mad:

The Lost Sheep · 28-09-2015 1:44pm

Japan have announced venue that will host the final in 2019 after proposed new national stadium was scrapped.
Stadium that held 2002 soccer world cup final will host 2019 final
http://www.the42.ie/japan-rugby-world-cup-stadium-stadia-plan-2355567-Sep2015/

The Lost Sheep · 30-09-2015 5:59pm

Rumours of the PI nations each receiving WR council seats
https://www.twitter.com/danleo82/status ... 8120520704

The word is there will be an expansion to almost 40 votes. Currently there's 28, so assuming Argentina and Italy both get an extra vote that leaves 10 seats, 3 to the Islands, 1 each to USA, Georgia, Romania, and maybe Namibia, Uruguay, and two others.

Prior to this Fiji/Tonga/Samoa all only had 1 vote between them and other pacific island nations

irishbucsfan · 30-09-2015 6:01pm

Hopefully the rumour comes true. Would be a good step forward.

Ceadog · 30-09-2015 11:31pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Rumours of the PI nations each receiving WR council seats
https://www.twitter.com/danleo82/status ... 8120520704

The word is there will be an expansion to almost 40 votes. Currently there's 28, so assuming Argentina and Italy both get an extra vote that leaves 10 seats, 3 to the Islands, 1 each to USA, Georgia, Romania, and maybe Namibia, Uruguay, and two others.

Prior to this Fiji/Tonga/Samoa all only had 1 vote between them and other pacific island nations

Probably Russia and Spain or Portugal for the last two spots, they'd be the next biggest teams.

30-09-2015 11:37pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Rumours of the PI nations each receiving WR council seats
https://www.twitter.com/danleo82/status ... 8120520704

The word is there will be an expansion to almost 40 votes. Currently there's 28, so assuming Argentina and Italy both get an extra vote that leaves 10 seats, 3 to the Islands, 1 each to USA, Georgia, Romania, and maybe Namibia, Uruguay, and two others.

Prior to this Fiji/Tonga/Samoa all only had 1 vote between them and other pacific island nations

What is the significance of this? First time I've ever heard of a rugby council

The Lost Sheep · 01-10-2015 11:25am

Deleted User wrote: »

What is the significance of this? First time I've ever heard of a rugby council

This is the world council that manage and control the affairs of World Rugby. The council runs the sport....

Podge_irl · 01-10-2015 11:28am

Is it the council that votes on where RWC goes? Not great news for us I would think if Europe's share of the vote is diminished (even if it is fair overall obviously)

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 04-10-2015 1:03pm

There's a documentary on RTÉ 1 tomorrow night (Monday) about concussion in rugby. Might be worth a watch.

CatFromHue · 04-10-2015 2:12pm

It's a bit late tbh concussion stories are a few years old now.

sydneybound · 05-10-2015 6:33am

The new Japan Super Rugby team will be called.... wait for it.... Sunwolves. It was never going to be a normal name I guess. Their motto is break the line. They have their first four games at home, 2 of which in Singapore as per the agreement, hopefully they'll get an early win or two.

Really hope for the good of Asian rugby this turns out a success.

Great time to launch the team after nearly 20 million watched the Scotland game plus they would have had a very good number for Samoa. They mightn't get through the group but getting another win against USA would leave them and rugby in Japan in great spirits.

Podge_irl · 05-10-2015 8:18am

The Super Rugby team was potentially falling apart though wasn't it? They were having a lot of trouble contracting players.

errlloyd · 05-10-2015 8:37am

What's the story with all three Pacific islanders teams needing to qualify for next world cup. Do we give enough qualifying places for the Pacific region?

Podge_irl · 05-10-2015 9:10am

errlloyd wrote: »

What's the story with all three Pacific islanders teams needing to qualify for next world cup. Do we give enough qualifying places for the Pacific region?

Any team that finishes in the top 3 in their group qualifies automatically. All the others have to go through qualifying.

Bridge93 · 05-10-2015 9:17am

Does Japan qualifying automatically open up a 3rd spot for them though?

Winters · 05-10-2015 10:17am

Ugh, what an awful name. Typical Japanese though.

Is there a historical connection to the name? Like the Zebre name?

I presume they will play out of the Prince Chichibu Stadium where the Japan Rugby Football Union are based.

Personally I would have gone with "Kantō Rugby" but that probably wouldn't have sold as many hats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunwolves

The Lost Sheep · 05-10-2015 10:45am

Podge_irl wrote: »

The Super Rugby team was potentially falling apart though wasn't it? They were having a lot of trouble contracting players.

There was some issues but these world cup performances will have changed things hopefully

errlloyd wrote: »

What's the story with all three Pacific islanders teams needing to qualify for next world cup. Do we give enough qualifying places for the Pacific region?

The top 3 teams from each pool qualify automatically and all 4 could finish 4th or 5th in their pool so all will have to enter the qualifying and this means if slots per region are the same. At least 1 of the 3 wont be at 2019

Bridge93 wrote: »

Does Japan qualifying automatically open up a 3rd spot for them though?

Doubt it.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 05-10-2015 11:18pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

There's a documentary on RTÉ 1 tomorrow night (Monday) about concussion in rugby. Might be worth a watch.

Did anyone watch this? Some really interesting insight from medical experts and some very questionable incidents at schools level. Benjamin Robinson's parents gave an interview too and his mother explaining what happened to him was very hard to watch.

Interesting fact at the start, RoG played most of the WC QF in 2003 while concussed and his vision was so wonky the pitch looked like it was tiny.

aimee1 · 05-10-2015 11:26pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Did anyone watch this? Some really interesting insight from medical experts and some very questionable incidents at schools level. Benjamin Robinson's parents gave an interview too and his mother explaining what happened to him was very hard to watch.

Interesting fact at the start, RoG played most of the WC QF in 2003 while concussed and his vision was so wonky the pitch looked like it was tiny.

i was knocked out once playing hockey. I was out for about 20 seconds and a few minutes later i was sat on the bench and felt fine, had zero symptoms thereafter. The person i collided with wasnt hit on the head directly and wasnt knocked out, had symptoms for several months and missed half a season and couldnt even drive a car because of the dizzy spells.

The biggest issue is the randomness of symptoms make it very difficult to diagnose.

Watching the mother of the lad who died in the north was painful viewing. And the schools game in the RDS of the lad who got up, wobbled and fell down was very similar to SOB v england this year. But SOB was removed and he had no choice. Every time I see the North incidents I feel sick.

errlloyd · 05-10-2015 11:28pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The top 3 teams from each pool qualify automatically and all 4 could finish 4th or 5th in their pool so all will have to enter the qualifying and this means if slots per region are the same. At least 1 of the 3 wont be at 2019

This is what I was asking. Thanks for answering. I assume one will qualify through Oceania, one will qualify through the Repechage, and then we'll likely see a team like South Korea qualify as Asian?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 06-10-2015 12:30am

aimee1 wrote: »

i was knocked out once playing hockey. I was out for about 20 seconds and a few minutes later i was sat on the bench and felt fine, had zero symptoms thereafter. The person i collided with wasnt hit on the head directly and wasnt knocked out, had symptoms for several months and missed half a season and couldnt even drive a car because of the dizzy spells.

The biggest issue is the randomness of symptoms make it very difficult to diagnose.

Watching the mother of the lad who died in the north was painful viewing. And the schools game in the RDS of the lad who got up, wobbled and fell down was very similar to SOB v england this year. But SOB was removed and he had no choice. Every time I see the North incidents I feel sick.

Yes, noticeable that Clongowes wouldn't take part in the documentary.

I found the Scottish doctor very interesting and his explanation of what actually happens to the brain was the best description of concussion I've seen. Also interesting that you don't actually have to get a direct knock to the head to get a concussion.

I still question the George North incidents. I can't see how nobody on the Welsh coaching staff noticed him collapse like a sack of spuds that second time.

Tom.D.BJJ · 06-10-2015 8:56am

Anyone know a pub in Amsterdam where i can watch the Ireland game on Sunday?

razorblunt · 06-10-2015 9:56am

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

Anyone know a pub in Amsterdam where i can watch the Ireland game on Sunday?

It's been a while since I've been there but there used to be an Irish bar close enough to the Madame Tussauds in the main square.

Just had a quick google and there are plenty of Irish bars there but O'Reilly's is the one I'm thinking of.

English Lurker · 06-10-2015 9:57am

Can anyone tell me just how much time Schmidt and the Irish set-up get with the players - training camps, time before tournaments and the like?

accidentprone1 · 06-10-2015 10:27am

English Lurker wrote: »

Can anyone tell me just how much time Schmidt and the Irish set-up get with the players - training camps, time before tournaments and the like?

Well the 45-man training squad for the world cup commenced training at the end of June. I might put together a list of actual times, etc., this weekend if I get a chance. Might be good to have together.

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