holiday pay

ganger

Our boss has paid people their holiday pay ,on their return to work from holidays.Any one who has questiioned this has got verbal abuse and threats of dismissal.Is this the done thing nowadays,who could help???/

therecklessone

Organisation of Working Time Act 1997

(2) The pay in respect of an employee's annual leave shall—

(a) be paid to the employee in advance of his or her taking the leave,

(b) be at the normal weekly rate or, as the case may be, at a rate which is proportionate to the normal weekly rate, and

(c) in a case in which board or lodging or, as the case may be, both board and lodging constitute part of the employee's remuneration, include compensation, calculated at the prescribed rate, for any such board or lodging as will not be received by the employee whilst on annual leave.

(3) Nothing in this section shall prevent an employer and employee from entering into arrangements that are more favourable to the employee with regard to the times of, and the pay in respect of, his or her annual leave.

So in line with the relevant legislation holiday pay should be paid before annual leave is taken, unless otherwise agreed between the employer and employee as per subsection (3)

tenifan

Therecklessone answered your question.

My 2c.. Bit of common sense, but is it a stable job with good pay? Get an overdraft facility and let you co-workers worry about being paid late.

Mrs OBumble

tenifan wrote: »

Therecklessone answered your question.

My 2c.. Bit of common sense, but is it a stable job with good pay? Get an overdraft facility and let you co-workers worry about being paid late.

I tend to agree.

That provision from the act is from before the days of being paid by bank-depost, when an employee had to be physically present in order to pick up their pay (and often needed an hour or two of leave during banking hours in order to lodge it).

Then it made sense that if the employee was going to be out on pay-day, they should be paid before they left.

Nowdays, you may be on holiday, but you pay can still be deposited to your account on the regular day.

And frankly, if someone is so close to the wire with cashflow that they're relying in the holiday pay to cover the cost of a holiday, then I'd be thinking they cannot afford to be doing anything special on their leave time.

ganger

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I tend to agree.

That provision from the act is from before the days of being paid by bank-depost, when an employee had to be physically present in order to pick up their pay (and often needed an hour or two of leave during banking hours in order to lodge it).

Then it made sense that if the employee was going to be out on pay-day, they should be paid before they left.

Nowdays, you may be on holiday, but you pay can still be deposited to your account on the regular day.

And frankly, if someone is so close to the wire with cashflow that they're relyin. g in the holiday pay to cover the cost of a holiday, then I'd be thinking they cannot afford to be doing anything special on their leave time.

Paid by cheque 5 o clock Friday evening,no bank deposits .And In regard to the last paragraph, 2 weeks holiday pay and that weeks wages may not be enough for you but maybe enough to take kids to seaside and such.Its the simple things really.

Mrs OBumble

ganger wrote: »

Paid by cheque 5 o clock Friday evening,no bank deposits .And In regard to the last paragraph, 2 weeks holiday pay and that weeks wages may not be enough for you but maybe enough to take kids to seaside and such.Its the simple things really.

Tell him to get with the programme and start paying by bank deposit, cheques are archaic, cost you more in bank fees, and delay you getting your money (ie cannot get it until the cheque clears, can be 5 days later).

And if you spend your holiday pay taking the kids to the seaside, then how do you pay the rent for that time?

ganger

I didn't ask advice on kids,seaside or rent ,thank you.

gozunda

ganger wrote: »

I didn't ask advice on kids,seaside or rent ,thank you.

Ganger - heads up and from experience - a lot of advice appears to be employer centric and v judgemental in my own experience.

To be honest if employers can't be bothered adhering to employment law there should be very real sanctions. As it is some employers seem to get away with all kinds of unethical and illegal behaviour. Unfortunately the EAT and Labour court often appear unwilling (or mandated) to give leeway.

Saucy McKetchup

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Tell him to get with the programme and start paying by bank deposit, cheques are archaic, cost you more in bank fees, and delay you getting your money (ie cannot get it until the cheque clears, can be 5 days later).

And if you spend your holiday pay taking the kids to the seaside, then how do you pay the rent for that time?

How are you a moderator?

keysersoze0330

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Tell him to get with the programme and start paying by bank deposit, cheques are archaic, cost you more in bank fees, and delay you getting your money (ie cannot get it until the cheque clears, can be 5 days later).

And if you spend your holiday pay taking the kids to the seaside, then how do you pay the rent for that time?

Whats that got to do with the OP's question?

Mrs OBumble

What it has to do with it is that I have NEVER in 30 years in the workforce met an employer who pays out holiday pay in advance - despite what the law says.

It's an old piece of law, which (according to some older workers I met when I was doing the union delegate thing) used to cause real problems: People got paid out a big amount in advance, went on holiday and spent up 'cos the lump sum made them feel rich. Then they got home and didn't have cash for rent/food/petrol in their first week back at work. Not one I've met has ever recommended enforcing it.

therecklessone

I don't think it is really of anyone's business (and certainly not their employer's) how staff budget in their personal life, and this law is not really that old given that it is the same legislation often quoted on this forum in relation to annual leave, working hours, public holidays etc etc. I would certainly be unhappy with an employer who threatened me with dismissal for asking for something which is provided for in employment legislation.

Nevertheless OP, you do have to consider the practicalities of this:

Could there be a cashflow problem with your business that would be exacerbated by non-standard payments?

How important is it really to you and your colleagues that you exercise your rights under the WTA?

Are you or they prepared to risk a row with your employer in pursuit of this?

Are you or they prepared to pursue this through the Rights Commisioner (which can take a very long time)?

Perhaps it would be more advantageous to take on board the advice of Mrs OBumble and suggest that he introduce payment by bank transfer in lieu of accepting he pay holiday pay in advance?

gozunda

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

What it has to do with it is that I have NEVER in 30 years in the workforce met an employer who pays out holiday pay in advance - despite what the law says.

It's an old piece of law, which (according to some older workers I met when I was doing the union delegate thing) used to cause real problems: People got paid out a big amount in advance, went on holiday and spent up 'cos the lump sum made them feel rich. Then they got home and didn't have cash for rent/food/petrol in their first week back at work. Not one I've met has ever recommended enforcing it.

The OPs private life or financial circumstances had absolutely NOTHING to to do with his request for information. As far as I am aware Personal attacks are against the Boards Charter.

Another poster clearly pointed out the current employment law relating to the OPs question. Whether or not it is perceived by some employers - managers to be an 'old' law is irrelevant. The law remains current and on the statute books.

Finally I am aware Boards also prohibits posters advocating any illegal activity. I would hope that because a law is chosen not be observed by some that it remains the law of the land and therefore enforceable.

joeguevara

Do people not just get paid on the same day that they normally get paid on. For example, I get paid on the last Friday of every month. So if I take a two week holiday on the first two weeks of the month, I would have been paid, the previous Friday and would get paid the last Friday of that month.

In 15 years working, I have never been paid at a different time.

gozunda

ganger wrote: »

Our boss has paid people their holiday pay ,on their return to work from holidays.Any one who has questiioned this has got verbal abuse and threats of dismissal.Is this the done thing nowadays,who could help???/

therecklessone wrote: »

Organisation of Working Time Act 1997
...
So in line with the relevant legislation holiday pay should be paid before annual leave is taken, unless otherwise agreed between the employer and employee as per subsection (3)

Perhaps it would be more advantageous to take on board the advice of Mrs OBumble and suggest that he introduce payment by bank transfer in lieu of accepting he pay holiday pay in advance?

So the facts stated are that the employer is in breach of employment law, and is threatening staff with dismissal. Is it likely that this paragon of labour rights is going to agree to a request that is in no way enforceable!

The trouble here is that employers are getting away with practices that are illegal knowing that employees face the prospect of accepting the status quo or else.

There needs to be a zero tolerance of this type of behaviour in my opinion as it is the thin edge of the wedge to the point where some employers believe they do not have to observe employment law and can threaten employees.

That this happens I believe, but I do not expect to see such activities should ever be advocated or excused.

therecklessone

gozunda wrote: »

So the facts stated are that the employer is in breach of employment law, and is threatening staff with dismissal. Is it likely that this paragon of labour rights is going to agree to a request that is in no way enforceable!

Perhaps not.

What is certain is that a Rights Commissioner will ask both parties at a hearing what efforts have been made at local level to resolve a dispute:

http://www.lrc.ie/document/More-on-the-Rights-Commission/4/745.htm

Claimants should notify their employer of the complaint before referring the case to the Rights Commissioner Service. Where legal entitlements are involved, every effort should be made to settle the matter locally without recourse to a Rights Commissioner.

So if nothing else the OP would strengthen any case he has by attempting to resolve this in a mutually beneficial way.

Quite apart from that, not everybody is comfortable embracing conflict with their employer, so pursuing an alternative rather than taking the employer head on may be more palatable to all involved on the staff side. There is nothing to lose from trying to seek accommodation, certainly no more than would be lost by choosing to pursue this immediately through legal channels.

Finally, I would echo Mrs OBumble's earlier point, while this may be a legal entitlement I have never received holiday pay prior to annual leave and that includes working for two commercial semi-state organisations and a large multinational. I have family and friends working in both the public and private sectors and I'm not aware of any of them receiving it either.

gozunda

therecklessone wrote: »

Perhaps not.

What is certain is that a Rights Commissioner will ask both parties at a hearing what efforts have been made at local level to resolve a dispute:

http://www.lrc.ie/document/More-on-the-Rights-Commission/4/745.htm

So if nothing else the OP would strengthen any case he has by attempting to resolve this in a mutually beneficial way.

Quite apart from that, not everybody is comfortable embracing conflict with their employer, so pursuing an alternative rather than taking the employer head on may be more palatable to all involved on the staff side. There is nothing to lose from trying to seek accommodation, certainly no more than would be lost by choosing to pursue this immediately through legal channels.

Finally, I would echo Mrs OBumble's earlier point, while this may be a legal entitlement I have never received holiday pay prior to annual leave and that includes working for two commercial semi-state organisations and a large multinational. I have family and friends working in both the public and private sectors and I'm not aware of any of them receiving it either.

From what the OP has said the employer has already threatened staff with dismissal and so far from sounding like an accommodating individual the employer appears unlikely to be amenable to any fair and equitable discussion. I would also point out that there appears to be no actual dispute but an actual breach of employment conditions by the employer.

The fact that some employers 'chose' to ignore this particular piece of employment law does not mean it does not exist.

I can return examples of employment in my experience where this condition has been observed and undertaken in a range of employment situations,

LegacyUser

Many weekly paid workers are paid the Friday they are finishing up to go on holidays. I do the wages for a largish company and that is the way we operate & I know other companies who do likewise. Obviously it is different for monthly paid workers who receive their salary payment on a set day each month.

It makes sense to me for weekly paid workers to be paid their holidays when they are actually going on holiday instead of having to wait for the following Friday for their holiday entitlement, having been on holidays for nearly a week at that stage.

Mrs OBumble

joeguevara wrote: »

Do people not just get paid on the same day that they normally get paid on. For example, I get paid on the last Friday of every month. So if I take a two week holiday on the first two weeks of the month, I would have been paid, the previous Friday and would get paid the last Friday of that month.

In 15 years working, I have never been paid at a different time.

The law says that if your're going on leave, you are entitled to be paid out for the entire leave period (yes, even if it's longer than your normal pay period) before you go.

This made sense in the olden days when pay came in cash in small brown envelopes. So if you were a 100 miles away on payday, there was no feasible way to get your pay.

But those days are long gone, and your experience is the same as mine: employers simply do not do a separate pay run, with advance holiday pay, just because one employee is going on holiday. And this has been the same no matter whether I've been paid weekly, fortnightly or monthly.

LegacyUser

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But those days are long gone, and your experience is the same as mine: employers simply do not do a separate pay run, with advance holiday pay, just because one employee is going on holiday. And this has been the same no matter whether I've been paid weekly, fortnightly or monthly.

It wouldn't be a separate pay run. You simply include their holiday hours in their pay for that week and there is a function on the payroll system which allows for spreading out their tax etc over the holiday weeks & not paying them for the weeks they are off. It's not an issue at all if you have any sort of decent payroll package.

ongarboy

Maybe OP should check his contract though. My contract says pay will be on x date of the month (or business date before it if falling on weekend/bank holiday) and that is what I signed up for.

Even if you were legally entitled to be paid holiday pay in advance despite what you agreed to when signing your contract, is this not a case of choosing your battles. Yes, you may sue and win but how will that really benefit you in the long run regarding career progression/pay rise and bonus time etc?

I'd be more concerned about the culture of fear and intimidation in OP's workplace where dismissal is threatened anytime anyone asks sensitive questions.

Doom

Saucy McKetchup wrote: »

How are you a moderator?

I've to argee...as a Mod you often give out unwelcome and unhelpful off the subject comments.

Mrs OBumble

Doom wrote: »

I've to argee...as a Mod you often give out unwelcome and unhelpful off the subject comments.

I have reported this post, and asked if someone else can remind you about the appropriate process for complaining about a moderator.

Any more moderation comments in this thread WILL get red-carded.

Ashbx

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Tell him to get with the programme and start paying by bank deposit, cheques are archaic, cost you more in bank fees, and delay you getting your money (ie cannot get it until the cheque clears, can be 5 days later).

And if you spend your holiday pay taking the kids to the seaside, then how do you pay the rent for that time?

I can tell you, if I told my boss to "get with the programme" I would be handed my p45!!!

Ashbx

I know posters here are saying oh we never got paid before our holidays but my last job I got paid my holiday pay before we took our annual leave EVERY SINGLE TIME! At the time, I got paid by cheque every week so this could be the reason why it was feasible. Now, i get paid monthly and don't even get holiday pay as I am on a set salary so I dont know what the rule of thumb is nowadays! If its in the employment law then they have to adhere to it whether its an old law or not...its still in place!

I have a boss who would be very hard to approach about these things but just say to him that you are entitled to it. If you have a HR department, I would suggest discussing with them!

Good luck!

Eoin

Doom wrote: »

I've to argee...as a Mod you often give out unwelcome and unhelpful off the subject comments.

Saucy McKetchup wrote: »

How are you a moderator?

Moderators are just here to be caretakers of the forum. When we do not post as moderators, then treat the post as if it was from any other user - because it's just a personal opinion.

That means that if you don't agree with it, then feel free to argue the point / report the post, but not post comments like the above. The comments you were replying to where nothing to do with the forum moderation, so don't confuse the two please.

Any questions, PM me.

Mrs OBumble

Ashbx wrote: »

Now, i get paid monthly and don't even get holiday pay as I am on a set salary so I dont know what the rule of thumb is nowadays!

Ahh, yes you do - because when you go on holiday (for 20 days/year, or however more your contract says), you still get paid. That is what holiday pay means. And you, like 99% of the rest of the world, don't get it in advance because you're on leave, you just get it when your regular pay cycle comes around.

People on hourly-wage jobs with variable hours often get 8% cash instead, accompanied by the right to not be at work for 20 days per year when they would regularly be at work. They are easier to pay "in advance" - but the downside is that they are never allowed to take any paid leave before they have earned it.

Doom

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I have reported this post, and asked if someone else can remind you about the appropriate process for complaining about a moderator.

Any more moderation comments in this thread WILL get red-carded.

Its an observation....I'm aware of the complaint procedure.
Chill ;-)

Eoin

Doom wrote: »

Its an observation....I'm aware of the complaint procedure.
Chill ;-)

Enough.

toadfly

I process a weekly payroll, payments go through on a Friday. We do pay holiday pay in advance for weekly staff but not for the monthly payroll. They just get paid on the 20th of every month.

pow wow

Whenever I've been paid weekly recently (civil service) I've just received my normal weekly amount at the end of every week, I haven't received money 'up front' to account for a two week holiday for example. My annual salary was divided by 52 and that weekly amount landed in my account each and every Friday, no matter if I was at work or off on my hols.

The only time I can recall ever being paid holiday pay up front would be back in the mid 1990s when my employer paid us in cash on a Friday - the logic being that if I weren't going to physically be there to collect my money on a given Friday it would be given the week before. Beyond that I've never encountered it in my near 20 years of working.

Whatever the law saws the practice is different in a lot of businesses, civil service included!