Samoa V New Zealand, Wed 8/7 SS1 silly am

total former

hahashake wrote: »

Bloody poaching Samoans.;)

It's pretty rare in sport that 2 international teams can face and one sides starting team is over 50% born in the opposing country and no one bats an eyelid.

Yeah_Right

Swiwi. wrote: »

And the Samoan team

SAMOA: 15 Tim Nanai-Williams, 14 Alofa Alofa, 13 Paul Perez, 12 Johnny Leota, 11 Alesana Tuilagi, 10 Tusiata Pisi, 9 Kahn Fotuali'i, 8 Ofisa Treviranus (c), 7 Jack Lam, 6 Alafoti Faosiliva, 5 Kane Thompson, 4 Teofilo Paulo, 3 Census Johnson, 2 Wayne Ole Avei, 1 Sakaria Taulafo RESERVES: 16 Ma'atulimanu Leiataua, 17 Anthony Perenise, 18 Iosefa Tekori, 19 Maurie Faasavalu, 20 Peleifofoga Cowley, 21 Faialaga Afamasaga, 22 Ken Pisi

Polynesian head count: the whole team, duh.
Poached: Tin Nanai-Williams, Alofa Alofa, Johnny Leota, Kahn Fotuali'i, Jack Lam, Kane Thompson, Teofilo Paulo, Census Johnson, Wayne Ole Avei, Anthony Perenise (all NZ)

with thanks to sydthebeat for the research...

Ken Pisi was born in Auckland. Not sure about his brother Tusi.

hahashake

total former wrote: »

Actually that crossed my mind but wasn't sure whether I should open that can of worms. Would be a lot worse when Ireland plays England in RL.

Swiwi.

Well done to Samoa on putting on a great occasion, not matched by the rugby, at least not by NZ anyway with the traditional rusty first-up display.

Good: McCaw, Carter (at least he is a NZ flyhalf who can put the ball between the posts), and O'Piutau
Not great: the rest

In particular, SBW has been average all season, and I would not take him to England. But he will go, of course.

Samoa struggled a bit in the first half but grew into the match. Add Ray Lee-Lo and Alapati Leuia to their midfield and they will be handy enough in September, still predicting they will down Scotland.

sydthebeat

So much for the bookies having nz -26.

One try apiece, great result for samoa

Swiwi.

sydthebeat wrote: »

So much for the bookies having nz -26.

One try apiece, great result for samoa

That was a silly prediction IMO. Samoa are pretty good these days. Ireland still hold the record so for the most points on Samoan soil.

sydneybound

Just finished watching the game and I honestly thought Tim Nanai-Williams was the worst player on the pitch. By far the worst player for Samoa and I was expecting him to be decent.

Samoa really struggled kicking. God it was desperate at times. I thought after 5 minutes it could be another ABs V USA scoreline but that never happened thank god. ABs played poorly which helped Samoa massively but in fairness to Samoa they never gave up and made a great spectacle of it. At one point with about 10 minutes to go they were only 6 points down.

The highlight was Samoa scoring their try, that no. 6 did great work.

All in all what an occasion, awesome for Samoa and the packed out crowd looked great. The welcome the ABs received when they landed and on a bus parade was something else. It was a national half day for Samoa and they can be very proud of their players (Nanai apart!! ;-) Its something the country won't ever forget.

Hopefully neighbouring countries New Zealand and Australia make many more trips to Samoa over the coming years.

sydneybound

You wouldn't get these realistic player ratings in Irish papers

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11477699

Tox56

sydneybound wrote: »

You wouldn't get these realistic player ratings in Irish papers

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11477699

You would after a loss. I guess in NZ terms this is as close as you get to a loss

matthew8

Pretty poor performance by New Zealand, never coped with the Samoan linespeed. Samoa might have won with a better set piece but they've staked a good claim for more top teams to visit. NZ won't be too concerned going forward, this was only a Crusaders/Blues selection more or less which meant it was almost by definition their out of form players. At least Carter kicked well.

thebaz

sydneybound wrote: »

You wouldn't get these realistic player ratings in Irish papers

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11477699

serioulsly, has there ever been a better player than Richie McCaw ?

130 something caps for the All Blacks, it's unreal - Was BOD's greatest fan , but what McCaw has achieved for the All Blacks is even up a level again

duckysauce

thebaz wrote: »

serioulsly, has there ever been a better player than Richie McCaw ?

yep alot better players and played fair --- not illegal every match and depending on their reputation -- to0 many numerous better class players to mention

Swiwi.

thebaz wrote: »

serioulsly, has there ever been a better player than Richie McCaw ?

130 something caps for the All Blacks, it's unreal - Was BOD's greatest fan , but what McCaw has achieved for the All Blacks is even up a level again

duckysauce wrote: »

yep alot better players and played fair --- not illegal every match and depending on their reputation -- to0 many numerous better class players to mention

Can't speak for other countries thebaz, but regardless of what happens in the rest of the rugby year, he is probably now considered NZ's best ever player, he has been around a long time, resisted all pretenders to his jersey, and his record speaks for itself. Personally, I still hold a soft spot for Michael Jones, maybe because I was a kid when Jones was playing, but he was an amazing player.

Of course, outside of NZ, McCaw is not so favoured, as duckysauce demonstrates. Them's the breaks I guess.

sydthebeat

duckysauce wrote: »

yep alot better players and played fair --- not illegal every match and depending on their reputation -- to0 many numerous better class players to mention

But of an ignorant post there ducky.

Mccaw will definitely go down as one of the best and will make most people's "best team ever" list. As to his illegality, the best flankers play on the edge of the rules and he knows the laws inside out and is so sharp that throughout his career he consistently changed his game to suit the laws.
His reputation for being a "cheat" is simply down to viewers being ignorant of the subtleties of the laws.

Most certainly one of the best ever, and will deserve his accolades come the end of the rwc.

Buer

duckysauce wrote: »

yep alot better players and played fair --- not illegal every match and depending on their reputation -- to0 many numerous better class players to mention

Ah just give us a couple then if there's so many.

duckysauce

sydthebeat wrote: »

But of an ignorant post there ducky.

Mccaw will definitely go down as one of the best and will make most people's "best team ever" list. As to his illegality, the best flankers play on the edge of the rules and he knows the laws inside out and is so sharp that throughout his career he consistently changed his game to suit the laws.
His reputation for being a "cheat" is simply down to viewers being ignorant of the subtleties of the laws.

Most certainly one of the best ever, and will deserve his accolades come the end of the rwc.

yep it was a sweeping statement on my part, and he is a class player. It was his antics at the breakdown that used to get up my nose big time. But he got pinged a few times in crucial games for this and cleaned up that side of his game.

duckysauce

Buer wrote: »

Ah just give us a couple then if there's so many.

Ian McKinley

jpr williams

Bod

Gareth Edwards

Jonah Lomu

Quick ones of the top of my head that stand out . Each to their own it's just my opinion regrading Mccaw

.ak

Who wants a flanker that plays fair?

Swiwi.

duckysauce wrote: »

Ian McKinley

jpr williams

Bod

Gareth Edwards

Jonah Lomu

Quick ones of the top of my head that stand out . Each to their own it's just my opinion regrading Mccaw

It's impossible to choose the greatest player ever, there are a multitude of choices.

Regardless of his actual play, and whether you class it as cheating etc, what can't be disputed is that he is a gentleman on and off the field. Has never had a card for dirty play (despite multiple provocations), and has never got up to off-field misdemeanours (drunk & disorderly, sexual escapades), and he doesn't bad mouth the opposition or their supporters.

irishbucsfan

Swiwi. wrote: »

It's impossible to choose the greatest player ever, there are a multitude of choices.

Regardless of his actual play, and whether you class it as cheating etc, what can't be disputed is that he is a gentleman on and off the field. Has never had a card for dirty play (despite multiple provocations), and has never got up to off-field misdemeanours (drunk & disorderly, sexual escapades), and he doesn't bad mouth the opposition or their supporters.

Pretty sure Ian McKinleys presence on that list could only really suggest this as a wind-up...

McCaw is the best I've ever seen anyway. Best breakdown player on any field he's ever been on, totally opponent-agnostic, a model professional and in possession of a quality that spanned eras without dimming. A shame that age is catching him now, would love to have seen Ireland beat an AB team with him in it.

total former

McCaw is an exceptional player and his cheating is definitely exaggerated.

However, I'm always wary of saying Player X is the greatest ever when he also happens to be part of the best team. If McCaw had been playing for Edinburgh and Scotland rather than Canterbury and NZ, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

.ak

Swiwi. wrote: »

It's impossible to choose the greatest player ever, there are a multitude of choices.

Regardless of his actual play, and whether you class it as cheating etc, what can't be disputed is that he is a gentleman on and off the field. Has never had a card for dirty play (despite multiple provocations), and has never got up to off-field misdemeanours (drunk & disorderly, sexual escapades), and he doesn't bad mouth the opposition or their supporters.

In fairness he did headbutt Jamie Heaslip's knee and managed to get off scot free. Thug.

thomond2006

.ak wrote: »

In fairness he did headbutt Jamie Heaslip's knee and managed to get off scot free. Thug.

Dave Kearney perfected the technique when he headbutted POC's foot.

irishbucsfan

total former wrote: »

McCaw is an exceptional player and his cheating is definitely exaggerated.

However, I'm always wary of saying Player X is the greatest ever when he also happens to be part of the best team. If McCaw had been playing for Edinburgh and Scotland rather than Canterbury and NZ, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I don't think that's true at all. Sergio Parrisse has had no trouble finding plaudits playing in an Italian back row. Given McCaw's offensive input is largely irrelevant to his huge stature in the game I'd imagine he would thrive with all those defensive phases he'd get playing for the Scots. The last time Scotland had a decent 7 (Rennie before the medical issues) he ran riot.

Sangre

total former wrote: »

McCaw is an exceptional player and his cheating is definitely exaggerated.

However, I'm always wary of saying Player X is the greatest ever when he also happens to be part of the best team. If McCaw had been playing for Edinburgh and Scotland rather than Canterbury and NZ, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

At the same time though he remained (largely) the best player in the best team for 130 caps or so. Regardless of whether the team made him look better, that is some achievement. Its not his fault he happened to play for the best team.

Opening a can of worms here but BOD wouldn't have got the same number of caps in NZ.

Very hard to say if it made a difference or not as we will simply never know.

CatFromHue

He wouldn't have gotten the same amount but he would have gotten alot.

Umaga was picked on the wing when he first started with NZ behind Cullen at 13 and I think Cullen played 13 in 2 World Cups (99 and 03). In 07 they had Muliana playing 13 for the QF against France.

So 13 was a problem position for NZ and people forget just how good BOD was in his early career.

Swiwi.

FWIW i think BOD would have got 50+ caps for NZ. Class player and he would have dominated that position for a while. NZ had alternatives though hence I don't think he would have got as many caps as he got for Ireland.

Tim Robbins

Swiwi. wrote: »

I ummed and ahhed about whether I waste my time responding to this, on an Irish forum when I no longer live in Ireland, and the forum's appeal is waning. It's like trying to preach to white Alabaman supremists that Blacks are equal, it's pushing shìt uphill stuff. Anyway, according to Tim Robbins the hackneyed cliché is that NZ robs Pacific Island players, and they play for NZ because they get more money. So let's take the current NZ 41 man training squad, of which by my reckoning 11 players have Pacific Heritage

Born & raised in NZ
Charles Piutau
Julian Savea
Ma'a Nonu
Sonny Bill Williams
Lima Sopoaga
Victor Vito
Keven Mealamu
Charlie Faumuina

I think that entitles them to choose to play for NZ without aspertions. I can't speak for Tim but maybe he feels their brown skin doesn't make them Kiwis?

That leaves
Jerome Kaino - born in American Samoa, moved to NZ aged 4.
Waisake Naholo - born Fiji, moved to NZ as a teenager
Malakai Fekitoa - born Tonga, moved to NZ as a teenager

I think we can discount Kaino. I am prepared to concede that in a parallel universe where playing for Tonga or Fiji had the same prestige as NZ, the latter 2 may well have declared for their countries of birth. The money issue is incorrect though, I have no doubt Clermont-Ferrand would be able to pay more for Naholo then what he'll get staying in NZ. And despite this apparent amazing money, Charles Piutau is heading to Ulster. Of course, players are not forced at gunpoint to decalre for NZ, players like Kahn Fotuali'i (born Auckland, NZ) have declared for the Pacific teams.

Now let's look at Tim's Irish team. NZ coach Joe Schmidt has named 45 players. I think there are 6 players born outside Ireland. I'm going to reduce that to 5, because there is no question Jamie Heaslip is Irish, and not robbed from another country, or playing for more money.

Mícheál Bent - born in NZ, moved to Ireland aged 26 (granny rule). Chance of playing for NZ - zero. Making more money in Ireland - yes.

Isaac Boss - born in NZ, moved to Ireland aged 25 (granny rule). Chance of playing for NZ - zero. Making more money in Ireland - yes.

Gearoid Payne - born in NZ, moved to Ireland aged aged 25 (the IRFU project player system - you know when players are specifically targetted to qualfiy for Ireland by being here for 3 years). Chance of playing for NZ - possible, might have made an extended squad, chance of being a regular starting XV player - zero. Making more money in Ireland - yes.

Roibeard Herring - born in SA, moved to Ireland aged 22 (project player). Chance of playing for SA - zero. Making more money in Ireland - yes.

Risteard Strauss - born in SA, moved to Ireland aged 23 (project player). Chance of playing for SA - probably zero. Making more money in Ireland - yes.

In fact, there were 45 players born in NZ who didn't wear black at the 2011 RWC.

I have to say Tim, with Ireland now being a good team with depth, I'm not sure you need your NZ and SA imports TBH. And please don't tell me that if Naholo & Fekitoa were Irish project players, you'd say no.

Now, if they had had the choice would Boss, Payne & Bent have played for NZ or Ireland? Would Strauss & Herring have preferred the Springboks? Is the project player system not really just poaching?

this is an excellent post.

Anyway here is my simplistic point.

I wouldn't have an issue with say Romania or Poland taking a AIL player and giving him some international caps who would otherwise never make it. I would have an issue with good players from Romania, Poland ended up playing for Ireland.

So, I would prefer if the system benefitted the underdog more. That would even mean the likes of Fiji, Somoa etc get some lads who may have only there up until age 10 and then moved to NZ.

This happens more I guess in Soccer. Because being an international player raises your profile whereas in Rugby the system makes you go the other way.

sydthebeat

Tim Robbins wrote: »

So, I would prefer if the system benefitted the underdog more.

but it certainly does, for every 'Naholo' or 'Fekito' theres 10 'Nani Williams' or 'Peter Saili'... the movement from New Zealand to the islands to get international capped is a vast multiple of what comes the other way.
You can argue that it hugely benefits the islands as they get schools / club experience to a much higher level in NZ that they could get at home.

For example, already in this thread ive shown that 38% of the Samoa rwc training squad were from outside of samoa. I dare say the final 31 for the RWC squad is a higher percentage.

would for example, fiji be happy to sacrifice the one or two "naholo"s for 10 "nicky little"s? i dare say they would

The Lost Sheep

Tim Robbins wrote: »

this is an excellent post.

Anyway here is my simplistic point.

I wouldn't have an issue with say Romania or Poland taking a AIL player and giving him some international caps who would otherwise never make it. I would have an issue with good players from Romania, Poland ended up playing for Ireland.

So, I would prefer if the system benefitted the underdog more. That would even mean the likes of Fiji, Somoa etc get some lads who may have only there up until age 10 and then moved to NZ.

This happens more I guess in Soccer. Because being an international player raises your profile whereas in Rugby the system makes you go the other way.

Tim the system does benefit the underdogs more. Samoa etc have substantial numbers of players who grew up in NZ - school there, ply pro there. Poland, Romania can only play AIL player if that player moves out there for 3 years or has a link through parents. How would you change it? Soccer is completely different and hard to compare

Yeah_Right

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't half the Georgian and Romanian teams play in France as full professionals? That's got to be big help for their national sides.

As long as France doesn't poach them