Illegal Driver in club matchplay?

Golfnut77

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Again - there was no advantage gained in this case.

You were right. Your man was an arse.

But, some people can be intentionally nitpicky. Some people make this part of their persona around golf. As Doc said, you would hardly get a round of golf in , in most events.

A guy with say 6 points after 9, has only started. Give him a break for example.

You are right, but not good for you in the long run to take this approach in every ambiguous situation.

Did you mention early on that your own clubs will be illegal soon ?

Doesn't matter whether an advantage was gained, it's the rules of golf.

What do you mean give him a break? Put down par instead of bogey on a hole? That's where this starts, sure I've done since I started why abide by the rules now?

As I said before I'd rather keep my integrity and call a guy up on a rules infraction, first of all to be fair to the other competitors and second so he can learn from it and now know the rule.

Yes, all amateurs will have to have conforming grooves in 2024 although that is subject to change, and if you are playing pro events or elite amateur events then those rules were effective in Jan 2010 and Jan 2014 respectively.

Many clubs already conform to the new groove rules, I have the original Titleist AP2s and they conform, but I will more than likely be getting new irons by 2024 and will make sure that they conform as I plan to continue playing competitions.

Golfnut77

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

You keep bringing up rules of the ball in play.

This is far more unusual than that.

What was worse - What Tiger did at Masters or This.
Or according to you - the both events are exactly the same.

I mentioned earlier that Jeff Overton was DQd under the same rule as OP for using a putting aid on the practice green during a round.

Any rules infraction that isn't pulled up is as bad as the other IMO, OP didn't think he was breaking the rules in resting against the flag, Tiger didn't think he was breaking the rules where he took his drop, both were called on it and both were penalised so I fail to see your point?

FixdePitchmark

Golf nut - I think you are being disingenuous with some of the examples you are picking - like mark a wrong score.

You know nobody on here is saying anything like that.

You are technically correct - but others are saying we are not playing golf at the highest level and life has bizarre situations that require judgement. Some situations are not even considered in rule books.

I'm saying this is like the wrong size net in a football goal. You are going on about marking a card wrong.

The way you are presenting this - I get a sense , I could be wrong ? You pull people up on stuff a good bit ?
Walking on line, out of turn, honour ?

It is hard to get a feel from a person's writing but ?

spacecoyote

So, have we determined that there was an actual breach in relation to holding the flag?

Decision 17-1/5 seems to say there are no issues with doing so. But decision 14-3/9 says that it could be (if you are using the flag for support/balance)

I'm assuming a 15 year old putting from a few inches is probably pretty steady on his feet & not needing the flagstick for balance, so wouldn't have actually been in breach of the rules.

Guffy

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Golf nut - I think you are being disingenuous with some of the examples you are picking - like mark a wrong score.

You know nobody on here is saying anything like that.

You are technically correct - but others are saying we are not playing golf at the highest level and life has bizarre situations that require judgement. Some situations are not even considered in rule books.

I'm saying this is like the wrong size net in a football goal. You are going on about marking a card wrong.

The way you are presenting this - I get a sense , I could be wrong ? You pull people up on stuff a good bit ?
Walking on line, out of turn, honour ?

It is hard to get a feel from a person's writing but ?

Scored a goal in a match last week. Ref didn't give it cause the nets were wrong size and ball went straight through the hole...... just saying like.

Golfnut77

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Golf nut - I think you are being disingenuous with some of the examples you are picking - like mark a wrong score.

You know nobody on here is saying anything like that.

You are technically correct - but others are saying we are not playing golf at the highest level and life has bizarre situations that require judgement. Some situations are not even considered in rule books.

I'm saying this is like the wrong size net in a football goal. You are going on about marking a card wrong.

The way you are presenting this - I get a sense , I could be wrong ? You pull people up on stuff a good bit ?
Walking on line, out of turn, honour ?

It is hard to get a feel from a person's writing but ?

What's the difference a rule is a rule. If someone accidentally puts the wrong score on a hole do you pull them up on it? Or if they move the ball when moving twigs from around the ball?

It's common courtesy not to walk on someone's line, there's no rule on it. I have no problem with people playing when it's not their honour or turn, slow play becomes an issue. Even in matchplay when someone takes the others honour you can call them on it and insist that they replay the shot, I did it once after the guy put it OB he replayed put it in the fairway and won the hole.

Golfnut77

spacecoyote wrote: »

So, have we determined that there was an actual breach in relation to holding the flag?

Decision 17-1/5 seems to say there are no issues with doing so. But decision 14-3/9 says that it could be (if you are using the flag for support/balance)

I'm assuming a 15 year old putting from a few inches is probably pretty steady on his feet & not needing the flagstick for balance, so wouldn't have actually been in breach of the rules.

OP mentioned that he rested the flag stick against him and so was rightly disqualified.

FixdePitchmark

Golfnut77 wrote: »

What's the difference a rule is a rule. If someone accidentally puts the wrong score on a hole do you pull them up on it? Or if they move the ball when moving twigs from around the ball?

It's common courtesy not to walk on someone's line, there's no rule on it. I have no problem with people playing when it's not their honour or turn, slow play becomes an issue. Even in matchplay when someone takes the others honour you can call them on it and insist that they replay the shot, I did it once after the guy put it OB he replayed put it in the fairway and won the hole.

Again - this is not a ball infringement, you are using serious stuff as your examples.

So you do call a bit on stuff ?

Are you known for it ?

Golfnut77

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Again - this is not a ball infringement, you are using serious stuff as your examples.

So you do call a bit on stuff ?

Are you known for it ?

What example would you like? If someone put a club on the ground to help alignment for a shot? I would of course call them on that.

If I know a rule and see an infringement then I will inform the player of it. I have no problem doing it. Everyone should.

Are you saying that you would intentionally ignore the rules just because you don't think an advantage was gained?

Russman

Golfnut77 wrote: »

OP mentioned that he rested the flag stick against him and so was rightly disqualified.

Why ? I can't find the rule for that (genuinely). I can see decisions 14-3/9 & 17-1/5, and to be honest I don't think 14-3/9 is really applicable, to me it looks like 17-1/5 is the relevant one.

Golfnut77

Russman wrote: »

Why ? I can't find the rule for that (genuinely). I can see decisions 14-3/9 & 17-1/5, and to be honest I don't think 14-3/9 is really applicable, to me it looks like 17-1/5 is the relevant one.

Under 17-1/5 may not use flagstick for assistance. If the flagstick is touching the ground or resting against you, it might appear that you are using the flagstick to help in your stroke thereby using equipment in an unusual manner, and is a violation of Rule 14-3 [Decision 14-3/9]

cairny

Russman wrote: »

Why ? I can't find the rule for that (genuinely). I can see decisions 14-3/9 & 17-1/5, and to be honest I don't think 14-3/9 is really applicable, to me it looks like 17-1/5 is the relevant one.

Back when this happened that was the rule; its been ammended in recent years to what you've quoted.

GreeBo

Golfnut77 wrote: »

Under 17-1/5 may not use flagstick for assistance. If the flagstick is touching the ground or resting against you, it might appear that you are using the flagstick to help in your stroke thereby using equipment in an unusual manner, and is a violation of Rule 14-3 [Decision 14-3/9]

It might.
that's a interpretation from another site right?

Russman

Golfnut77 wrote: »

Under 17-1/5 may not use flagstick for assistance. If the flagstick is touching the ground or resting against you, it might appear that you are using the flagstick to help in your stroke thereby using equipment in an unusual manner, and is a violation of Rule 14-3 [Decision 14-3/9]

Hmmm, two issues I'd see with that are:
1) making the jump from "might appear" to "are", what if the guy says he's not ? I think its assuming the worst without due cause. And, strictly IMO, when a guy has a potential valid answer, its not really good form to be calling him on it.
2) is the flagstick considered to be "equipment" ? I don't actually know for sure.

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

Hmmm, two issues I'd see with that are:
1) making the jump from "might appear" to "are", what if the guy says he's not ? I think its assuming the worst without due cause. And, strictly IMO, when a guy has a potential valid answer, its not really good form to be calling him on it.
2) is the flagstick considered to be "equipment" ? I don't actually know for sure.

Using it to build a stance is illegal, if you are not building a stance then it's not an issue.

golfball37

That he could flat out lie and say he was playing with a Titleist is the most shocking aspect for me in all of this.

I would let the rules slide from time to time such as free GUR drops when my opponent was just outside the line etc but his ball was buried. Lying is a different level altogether though and that person doesn't belong in any golf club.

I'd email the GUI if I were the OP. Again it might not achieve anything but if his name ever comes up again over anything you'd have done the game a service.

FixdePitchmark

I think the op is spot on too.

But for rare ambiguous situations . I reserve my right to judgement in situations when no advantage is gained over me and field.

In fact in matchplay I'd let certain stuff go. Even when an advantage was gained.

So . In the end . My own piece of mind is more important, than taking the high ground in every situation in golf and life.

I've seen lads who have a life of taking hard line stances on everything.
It is just not good for their state of mind in end.

On this situation. Have a friendly chat with lad after . Tell him club rule. Make sure he doesn't do it again.

You lost your match. Have a pint with him. All happy.

If he is an arse. He will eventually get caught out. Don't take yourself out for an arse.

blackwhite

Golfnut77 wrote: »

Under 17-1/5 may not use flagstick for assistance. If the flagstick is touching the ground or resting against you, it might appear that you are using the flagstick to help in your stroke thereby using equipment in an unusual manner, and is a violation of Rule 14-3 [Decision 14-3/9]

The decisions to rule 17 demonstrate that it is perfectly fine to hold the flag, or have it resting against you, so long as you do not use it for balance or assistance in making the stroke. Rule 14-3 only applies is you ARE using the flag for assistance, not if you might appear to use it.

It's because of stuff like this that I always carry a copy of the rule book and decisions in my bag.

People think they know a rule, cry foul, and then get prissy when informed that they are incorrect.

Two weeks ago one of my playing partners dislodged a single leaf with his practice swing (the leaf was from a fairly large branch that his follow through had slightly clipped), and the third member of our group immediately claimed that a penalty was applicable. Even after being shown decision 13-2/0.5, and accepting that nothing had been done to improve the lie/area of swing, he still spent the next 3/4 holes in a huff, claiming that we'd been "pedantic" to avoid applying a penalty.

GreeBo

golfball37 wrote: »

That he could flat out lie and say he was playing with a Titleist is the most shocking aspect for me in all of this.

I would let the rules slide from time to time such as free GUR drops when my opponent was just outside the line etc but his ball was buried. Lying is a different level altogether though and that person doesn't belong in any golf club.

I think that you would openly flaunt the rules of the game is the most shocking aspect.

I suppose you dont count putts that are taken from just outside the cup either?
How about balls just out of bounds?
Perhaps writing down a 4 when it was really a 5, 5 is only just more than 4 after all.

Genuinely shocked tbh.

Golfnut77

blackwhite wrote: »

The decisions to rule 17 demonstrate that it is perfectly fine to hold the flag, or have it resting against you, so long as you do not use it for balance or assistance in making the stroke. Rule 14-3 only applies is you ARE using the flag for assistance, not if you might appear to use it.

It's not as black and white as that, if the flagstick is touching the ground then it could be argued that the player is using it to steady themselves, similarly if the flagstick is resting against them that could be deemed an aid.

If I kept my backside up against my golf bag to stop myself early extending during my swing then that would also be a breach of rule 14-3.

If I'm tapping in with the flagstick in my hand I keep it off the ground so I'm certain that no rule was broken and no question can be asked. If you ground the flagstick or hold it against you then you open yourself up to a potential penalty, although as with 99% of rules in golf it's only the golfer themselves that can say whether or not they were using it in such a way.

Golfnut77

GreeBo wrote: »

I think that you would openly flaunt the rules of the game is the most shocking aspect.

I suppose you dont count putts that are taken from just outside the cup either?
How about balls just out of bounds?
Perhaps writing down a 4 when it was really a 5, 5 is only just more than 4 after all.

Genuinely shocked tbh.

Seems to be the majority on this thread, and no doubt in most clubs unfortunately.

blackwhite

Golfnut77 wrote: »

It's not as black and white as that, if the flagstick is touching the ground then it could be argued that the player is using it to steady themselves, similarly if the flagstick is resting against them that could be deemed an aid.

And it is up to the player themselves to be the judge of whether or not they used it as an aid/support or not.
If they didn't use it, appearances don't matter a damn.

Golfnut77 wrote: »

If I kept my backside up against my golf bag to stop myself early extending during my swing then that would also be a breach of rule 14-3.

That's using the bag. If you weren't using it, but someone says it looked like you were, then it still is not a penalty.

Golfnut77 wrote: »

If I'm tapping in with the flagstick in my hand I keep it off the ground so I'm certain that no rule was broken and no question can be asked. If you ground the flagstick or hold it against you then you open yourself up to a potential penalty, although as with 99% of rules in golf it's only the golfer themselves that can say whether or not they were using it in such a way.

And equally well, if you stand exactly as you would without the flag there, but it happens to touch the ground, then no penalty applies either.
What someone else says something looks like is irrelevant. It can make things easier to avoid a dispute, but in terms of the rules it is what actually happened, and not appearances, that matters.

cairny

Golfnut77 wrote: »

Seems to be the majority on this thread, and no doubt in most clubs unfortunately.

I think it's important to distinguish the matchplay scenario you originally described where there is a discretion in certain circumstances described well earlier to let things slide and field events where you are effectively the referee and must protect the interests of the field and absolutely no discretion is available.

You seem to be equating the two which I think is unfair / incorrect.

Russman

Golfnut77 wrote: »

It's not as black and white as that, if the flagstick is touching the ground then it could be argued that the player is using it to steady themselves, similarly if the flagstick is resting against them that could be deemed an aid.

Even leaving aside that the player is the judge of whether he is or isn't, if it only "could be deemed", why would a fellow competitor make that argument with another ? IMO you need to be 100% sure of something (ie a breach) before you bring it up with someone.

Apologies Op, this has wandered waaay off topic, but its a good debate all the same.

Golfnut77

blackwhite wrote: »

And it is up to the player themselves to be the judge of whether or not they used it as an aid/support or not.
If they didn't use it, appearances don't matter a damn.

That applies to all rules of golf really. The player themselves have to be the ones to accept their actions, in my case the guy denying using an illegal club, someone grounding the club in the bunker but denying doing so, someone could use the flagstick to hold themselves steady, it's not like we can measure the force that they are exerting on the flagstick so essentially no one will ever be penalized for that rule because whether the flag is touching the ground or themselves they can deny that they used it to aid them regardless.

Golfnut77

cairny wrote: »

I think it's important to distinguish the matchplay scenario you originally described where there is a discretion in certain circumstances described well earlier to let things slide and field events where you are effectively the referee and must protect the interests of the field and absolutely no discretion is available.

You seem to be equating the two which I think is unfair / incorrect.

How so? I think even in matchplay you have a duty to uphold the rules. Maybe enforcing the rule would mean you win and go on then get beaten by your next opponent, but by not enforcing it he goes through and beats the next guy, that's unfair to the whole field in my opinion.

I would call guys on rules regardless of format. I think people that don't are completely in the wrong. If you play golf you play by the rules, there is a loop hole in matchplay where you can decide not to call a guy on it but what's the point? Just so the guy doesn't think you're an asshole? And then it becomes "well he left me off when I accidentally moved my ball on the last, I'll leave him off grounding his club in a bunker on this one" and so on until it becomes a farce really. Or even worse you leave him off then he calls you on yours, then what?

blackwhite

Golfnut77 wrote: »

That applies to all rules of golf really. The player themselves have to be the ones to accept their actions, in my case the guy denying using an illegal club, someone grounding the club in the bunker but denying doing so, someone could use the flagstick to hold themselves steady, it's not like we can measure the force that they are exerting on the flagstick so essentially no one will ever be penalized for that rule because whether the flag is touching the ground or themselves they can deny that they used it to aid them regardless.

To be honest, I can't imagine a way that someone would hold the flag where it wouldn't be obvious whether they were putting their weight on it - at the very least the flag would mark the green.

I'll often let the flag rest against my shoulder if I'm making a quick tap-in, and the angle that I have the flag at would make it physically impossible for me to
place any weight on it or to apply any force to it. Nobody has ever said a word about it, and if they did they'd be swiftly told to cop themselves on.

IMO, people who try to "catch out" people with imagined rule breaches are every bit as bad as people who intentionally break rules, or who fail to penalise themselves for breaches.

I once played a match play where my opponent chipped to within a foot of the hole from about 20 yards away. I conceded the putt and threw his ball back to him. The ball landed maybe three/four feet short of him, and he claimed I'd been trying to test the speed of the green. I had a five foot putt left, and the ball hadn't even rolled on the green, it bounced on it once.

I laughed him off, and told him if he was serious we could nip into the clubhouse and ask for a ruling (we were on the third, back beside the first tee). Once I suggested asking someone else about it he quickly backed down. Gave the distinct impression that he was chancing his arm in the hope I wouldn't be aware of the detail of the rules. IMO opinion this is no different from cheating.

The core point of your post above is I fully agree with, self-policing is the essence of the game, and without it the rules are nigh on impossible to police.

FixdePitchmark

So what are you going to do now Golfnut77 ?

Russman

Golfnut77 wrote: »

How so? I think even in matchplay you have a duty to uphold the rules. Maybe enforcing the rule would mean you win and go on then get beaten by your next opponent, but by not enforcing it he goes through and beats the next guy, that's unfair to the whole field in my opinion.

I would call guys on rules regardless of format. I think people that don't are completely in the wrong. If you play golf you play by the rules, there is a loop hole in matchplay where you can decide not to call a guy on it but what's the point? Just so the guy doesn't think you're an asshole? And then it becomes "well he left me off when I accidentally moved my ball on the last, I'll leave him off grounding his club in a bunker on this one" and so on until it becomes a farce really. Or even worse you leave him off then he calls you on yours, then what?

Its not a loop hole, its clearly stated. In match play the player clearly has a choice. You can't say some rules are to be obeyed but others are only loop holes either, now in fairness. I've no idea why that stipulation is there in the matchplay rule, but it could well essentially boil down to "so you're not being an a$$hole" when the situation doesn't demand it. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

The analogy of letting me off when accidentally moving the ball isn't really a good one either, players can't agree to waive rules. Its only that one player can essentially say nothing when/if he sees something. In theory your example could happen, but its not very realistic or likely IMO.

Rikand

I don't use the flag as a support, the flag uses me.