Illegal Driver in club matchplay?

Larry Wildman

Rikand wrote: »

I don't use the flag as a support, the flag uses me.

Exactly.

I've done that plenty of times (tapped in with the flagstick leaning against me).

Anyone trying to claim that's untoward needs their head examined.

cairny

Golfnut77 wrote: »

How so? I think even in matchplay you have a duty to uphold the rules. Maybe enforcing the rule would mean you win and go on then get beaten by your next opponent, but by not enforcing it he goes through and beats the next guy, that's unfair to the whole field in my opinion.

I would call guys on rules regardless of format. I think people that don't are completely in the wrong. If you play golf you play by the rules, there is a loop hole in matchplay where you can decide not to call a guy on it but what's the point? Just so the guy doesn't think you're an asshole? And then it becomes "well he left me off when I accidentally moved my ball on the last, I'll leave him off grounding his club in a bunker on this one" and so on until it becomes a farce really. Or even worse you leave him off then he calls you on yours, then what?

In the examples you give; the player would call a penalty on himself, you can't agree to waive it and so the penalty applies, totally different scenario to one we're discussing and doesn't advance your argument.

Loophole? Really, c'mon that's pretty disingenuos. It's there to allow for sportmanship in what is a one v one competition; a single competitor can evaluate if the other is gaining an advantage by an inadvertent rules breach and choose to ignore (he couldn't do this in a field event as he can't decide for everyone else).

To lump someone who does this in with the recent example of someone turning a blind eye to illegal GUR drops in weekly comps is wrongheaded.

I think you've had a pretty easy ride on here because of your opponent's awful behaviour after being called up. In my view what you did was unnecessary within the rules (unless you genuinely believed that he was winning as a result of using the illegal club).

I would accept from your previous posts that this was not motivated by self advancement in any way and that it came from a good place but the rules provide a method for you to bring it to his attention without claiming the match / holes.

Larry Wildman

cairny wrote: »

In the examples you give; the player would call a penalty on himself, you can't agree to waive it and so the penalty applies, totally different scenario to one we're discussing and doesn't advance your argument.

Loophole? Really, c'mon that's pretty disingenuos. It's there to allow for sportmanship in what is a one v one competition; a single competitor can evaluate if the other is gaining an advantage by an inadvertent rules breach and choose to ignore (he couldn't do this in a field event as he can't decide for everyone else).

To lump someone who does this in with the recent example of someone turning a blind eye to illegal GUR drops in weekly comps is wrongheaded.

I think you've had a pretty easy ride on here because of your opponent's awful behaviour after being called up. In my view what you did was unnecessary within the rules (unless you genuinely believed that he was winning as a result of using the illegal club).

I would accept from your previous posts that this was not motivated by self advancement in any way and that it came from a good place but the rules provide a method for you to bring it to his attention without claiming the match / holes.

I think that criticism of the OP is outlandish to be honest.

If I lose a match to someone who's using an illegal driver, I'm claiming a win, regardless of whether he's hit it badly all day or not.

Just as I'd claim a match against someone with 15 clubs in his bag all round regardless of whether he actually used only three clubs all day or not.

Rules are rules, especially when they are "black and white", e.g. legal clubs, number of clubs, in or out of GUR, etc.

Golfnut77

blackwhite wrote: »

To be honest, I can't imagine a way that someone would hold the flag where it wouldn't be obvious whether they were putting their weight on it - at the very least the flag would mark the green.

I'll often let the flag rest against my shoulder if I'm making a quick tap-in, and the angle that I have the flag at would make it physically impossible for me to
place any weight on it or to apply any force to it. Nobody has ever said a word about it, and if they did they'd be swiftly told to cop themselves on.

IMO, people who try to "catch out" people with imagined rule breaches are every bit as bad as people who intentionally break rules, or who fail to penalise themselves for breaches.

I once played a match play where my opponent chipped to within a foot of the hole from about 20 yards away. I conceded the putt and threw his ball back to him. The ball landed maybe three/four feet short of him, and he claimed I'd been trying to test the speed of the green. I had a five foot putt left, and the ball hadn't even rolled on the green, it bounced on it once.

I laughed him off, and told him if he was serious we could nip into the clubhouse and ask for a ruling (we were on the third, back beside the first tee). Once I suggested asking someone else about it he quickly backed down. Gave the distinct impression that he was chancing his arm in the hope I wouldn't be aware of the detail of the rules. IMO opinion this is no different from cheating.

The core point of your post above is I fully agree with, self-policing is the essence of the game, and without it the rules are nigh on impossible to police.

See resting it against your shoulder could be deemed an aid, using it to keep your body still etc. I'd rather not have any part of the flag resting against me or me leaning on it into the ground, just hovering it avoids all potential problems.

I in no way try and catch people out, if I know a rule it's because either I was a victim of it or it happened to one of my playing partners and so am 100% sure of it then I will know what to do if it occurs again. In that case then I have a duty to call a player on it. I'm surprised that not everyone sees it that way and are happy to pick and choose what rules to apply where.

cairny

Larry Wildman wrote: »

I think that criticism of the OP is outlandish to be honest.

If I lose a match to someone who's using an illegal driver, I'm claiming a win, regardless of whether he's hit it badly all day or not.

Just as I'd claim a match against someone with 15 clubs in his bag all round regardless of whether he actually used only three clubs all day or not.

Rules are rules, especially when they are "black and white", e.g. legal clubs, number of clubs, in or out of GUR, etc.

You have that option....you also have the option of not doing it 'within the rules'. In my view what is outlandish is being criticised for not claiming the match.

Golfnut77

cairny wrote: »

In the examples you give; the player would call a penalty on himself, you can't agree to waive it and so the penalty applies, totally different scenario to one we're discussing and doesn't advance your argument.

Loophole? Really, c'mon that's pretty disingenuos. It's there to allow for sportmanship in what is a one v one competition; a single competitor can evaluate if the other is gaining an advantage by an inadvertent rules breach and choose to ignore (he couldn't do this in a field event as he can't decide for everyone else).

To lump someone who does this in with the recent example of someone turning a blind eye to illegal GUR drops in weekly comps is wrongheaded.

I think you've had a pretty easy ride on here because of your opponent's awful behaviour after being called up. In my view what you did was unnecessary within the rules (unless you genuinely believed that he was winning as a result of using the illegal club).

I would accept from your previous posts that this was not motivated by self advancement in any way and that it came from a good place but the rules provide a method for you to bring it to his attention without claiming the match / holes.

You could take my example the exact same way, if he grounds his club in the bunker and doesn't say anything you decide to leave him off but have a quiet word on the next and say that you saw him ground his club on the last and he shouldn't do it again. Again he could deny it ever happened some rule could appear against you that you're not aware of and he could call you on it, it's not a farfetched scenario.

Ignoring the rules of golf is not sportsmanship regardless of the format, if it's matchplay and you think your opponent is hard done by by a decision then give him a putt to make up for it. Sergio did it in the WGC with Rickie Fowler, felt he had taken too long to get a ruling and it affected Fowler so he conceded a generous putt.

As regards my situation you are entitled to your opinion, but as I said before letting him proceed to the next round is unfair on the entire field, it's unfair to the person he beat in the first round and it's unfair on me and his next opponent as he should not be playing him. It's impossible to say whether he got an advantage from it, maybe if he used a different driver he would have sliced it OB on a few holes, who knows.

Your stance is appalling to be honest that you are so flippant with the rules is disappointing but clearly replicated throughout the country, everyone should be pulled on rules infractions myself included, I would be disgusted if I found out I had won a competition or got through matchplay having broken a rule no matter how pedantic it would seem.

Dayor Knight

We all knew certain drivers were being outlawed about 6 or 7 years again, and forked out for a new one. Not much excuse for a player continuing to use such a drivers unless by some strange accident, which it really doesn't look like here.

Seems to be reasonable to call that in a matchplay. I might not bother, myself, but the OP was well entitled to, i.m.o.

cairny

Golfnut77 wrote: »

You could take my example the exact same way, if he grounds his club in the bunker and doesn't say anything you decide to leave him off but have a quiet word on the next and say that you saw him ground his club on the last and he shouldn't do it again. Again he could deny it ever happened some rule could appear against you that you're not aware of and he could call you on it, it's not a farfetched scenario.

Ignoring the rules of golf is not sportsmanship regardless of the format, if it's matchplay and you think your opponent is hard done by by a decision then give him a putt to make up for it. Sergio did it in the WGC with Rickie Fowler, felt he had taken too long to get a ruling and it affected Fowler so he conceded a generous putt.

As regards my situation you are entitled to your opinion, but as I said before letting him proceed to the next round is unfair on the entire field, it's unfair to the person he beat in the first round and it's unfair on me and his next opponent as he should not be playing him. It's impossible to say whether he got an advantage from it, maybe if he used a different driver he would have sliced it OB on a few holes, who knows.

Your stance is appalling to be honest that you are so flippant with the rules is disappointing but clearly replicated throughout the country, everyone should be pulled on rules infractions myself included, I would be disgusted if I found out I had won a competition or got through matchplay having broken a rule no matter how pedantic it would seem.

I am not flippant about the Rules (laughing a bit to be honest cos my friends call me a Rules Nazi:)

The Rules allow me, in a matchplay situation, to take a different course of action than you did, they also allow you to do what you did, neither of us is being flippant with the Rules in either scenario.

Golfnut77

cairny wrote: »

I am not flippant about the Rules (laughing a bit to be honest cos my friends call me a Rules Nazi:)

The Rules allow me, in a matchplay situation, to take a different course of action than you did, they also allow you to do what you did, neither of us is being flippant with the Rules in either scenario.

I'd take the stance though that by consciously ignoring a rules infraction by your opponent in matchplay then you're letting down everyone in the competition. As you rightly say the rule is there because the R and A etc believe that you and only you will lose out by not enforcing the rule and so is up to you but I wouldn't agree with that.

Larry Wildman

Golfnut77 wrote: »

See resting it against your shoulder could be deemed an aid.

Only by someone who is utterly insane and knows nothing about golf.

Golfnut77

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Only by someone who is utterly insane and knows nothing about golf.

Simple solution, don't rest it against you. Is it really worth a potential DQ?

Larry Wildman

Golfnut77 wrote: »

Simple solution, don't rest it against you. Is it really worth a potential DQ?

It's not something I would think about.

The salient point is that you're not contriving to use the flag as an aid.

cairny

Golfnut77 wrote: »

I'd take the stance though that by consciously ignoring a rules infraction by your opponent in matchplay then you're letting down everyone in the competition. As you rightly say the rule is there because the R and A etc believe that you and only you will lose out by not enforcing the rule and so is up to you but I wouldn't agree with that.

I do see your point but I think we're at the agree to disagree stage....which the Rules allow us to do in this instance

Btw I'd make a point of smiling and greeting that guy for the next 20 years, every 'Hello' will be a little dagger.

Golfnut77

cairny wrote: »

I do see your point but I think we're at the agree to disagree stage....which the Rules allow us to do in this instance

Btw I'd make a point of smiling and greeting that guy for the next 20 years, every 'Hello' will be a little dagger.

Be interesting to know where you'd draw the line in matchplay though?

Grounding club in the bunker? Touching the line of putt? Marking the ball from the side then replacing in front? Using a non conforming driver?

Are those all things that you would let go? Would it have to be blatant cheating before you pull them up?

I plan on giving him a wide berth forever.

GreeBo

Golfnut77 wrote: »

Simple solution, don't rest it against you. Is it really worth a potential DQ?

So you never roll a ball on the green, touch the surface of the green, remove loose impediments from the line of your putt, knock a leaf of a tree, fairly take your stance when you rball is in a tree, dig your feet in for a bunker shot, let your club squash down the grass in the rough?

All of which *could* be deemed to be a rule breech.

Golfnut77

GreeBo wrote: »

So you never roll a ball on the green, touch the surface of the green, remove loose impediments from the line of your putt, knock a leaf of a tree, fairly take your stance when you rball is in a tree, dig your feet in for a bunker shot, let your club squash down the grass in the rough?

All of which *could* be deemed to be a rule breech.

Why would I roll the ball on the green?

I don't see how any others are a rule breach and what rules exactly "could" be broken?

Except squashing down the grass in the rough, I'm not sure what you mean by that but if it's done to improved the lie or the path of the club through the ball then that's against the rules
When my ball is in the rough I generally hover it as on several occasions in the past when I have grounded it, it moved.

FixdePitchmark

Golfnut77 wrote: »

Be interesting to know where you'd draw the line in matchplay though?

Grounding club in the bunker? Touching the line of putt? Marking the ball from the side then replacing in front? Using a non conforming driver?

Are those all things that you would let go? Would it have to be blatant cheating before you pull them up?

I plan on giving him a wide berth forever.

Are you going to stand by your principles and protect the field and follow through to completion ?

cairny

Golfnut77 wrote: »

Be interesting to know where you'd draw the line in matchplay though?

Grounding club in the bunker? Touching the line of putt? Marking the ball from the side then replacing in front? Using a non conforming driver?

Are those all things that you would let go? Would it have to be blatant cheating before you pull them up?

I plan on giving him a wide berth forever.

I play on teams for my club, it's a tougher scenario there because you've your teammates to consider not just yourself but there have been various issues over the years, this year another team tried to claim a hole alleging that one of our lads had touched the sand as he flicked the rake up with his club (miles away from the ball). Now the rule has changed and that's not a penalty anymore but in that scenario I would use my discretion and not claim the hole as there was clearly no attempt at gaining an advantage. If however he grounded his club behind the ball in the hazard then I'd feel obliged to call that.

It's a case by case basis, given that the Rules allow that flexibility that's how I'll continue.

Golfnut77

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Are you going to stand by your principles and protect the field and follow through to completion ?

In my situation?

I'm afraid not, it boils down to integrity at the end of the day and my opponent flat out denies using the club I held it in my hands. Unfortunately he doesn't have the integrity to own up to his mistake and since I have no proof that he used it then I'm stuck as it will always be my word against his.

Golfnut77

cairny wrote: »

I play on teams for my club, it's a tougher scenario there because you've your teammates to consider not just yourself but there have been various issues over the years, this year another team tried to claim a hole alleging that one of our lads had touched the sand as he flicked the rake up with his club (miles away from the ball). Now the rule has changed and that's not a penalty anymore but in that scenario I would use my discretion and not claim the hole as there was clearly no attempt at gaining an advantage. If however he grounded his club behind the ball in the hazard then I'd feel obliged to call that.

It's a case by case basis, given that the Rules allow that flexibility that's how I'll continue.

So your thought process would be to only call a guy if you feel they are gaining an advantage from it?

That's fair enough but for me the rules are there for a reason and if you're playing competitively regardless of matchplay or stroke then you should abide by them. There's some ridiculous rules for instance when you're in a bunker hit the lip, ball rebounds and hits you, 2 stroke penalty. That's a ridiculous rule, but I play the game so I abide by it and expect my fellow competitors to do the same.

Larry Wildman

Team golf is a petri dish for this kind of sh1t...the knob jockeys that infest every club maraud around the place looking for ways to catch people out.

FixdePitchmark

Golfnut77 wrote: »

In my situation?

But . You've showed extraordinary conviction in your beliefs here.

It seems you have had to look at the pros and cons of the situation and come to a course of action that goes against your own normal actions and convictions.

I guess we are sort of saying the same thing about golf.
In certain situations you have to weigh up the rights and wrongs. The pros and cons.

Golfnut77

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

But . You've showed extraordinary conviction in your beliefs here.

It seems you have had to look at the pros and cons of the situation and come to a course of action that goes against your own normal actions and convictions.

I guess we are sort of saying the same thing about golf.
In certain situations you have to weigh up the rights and wrongs. The pros and cons.

What choice do I have? I would expect that if I tell someone they are breaking a rule that they will either say fair enough and accept it or say that they don't agree and we'll check it out afterwards.

I didn't expect that guy to behave like he did both before and after, I'm not willing to go to court over a golf ruling and I think 99.99999% of the time no one would go to the lengths this guy has.

Are you saying that because I pull guys up when they're breaking the rules that by not pursuing this to the end, I'm being a hypocrite?

GreeBo

Golfnut77 wrote: »

Why would I roll the ball on the green?

I don't see how any others are a rule breach and what rules exactly "could" be broken?

Except squashing down the grass in the rough, I'm not sure what you mean by that but if it's done to improved the lie or the path of the club through the ball then thats against the rules
When my ball is in the rough I generally hover it as on several occasions in the past when I have grounded it, it moved.

1 - Rolling an opponents ball over to them after you mark it for them
2 - Touching the surface to check it for dampness, roughness etc, is against the rules
3 - Removing loose impediments could be deemed to be testing the surface, a-la 2)
4 - Knocking a leaf could be deemed to be improving your area of swing
5 - Squashing your way back into a tree could be deemed to be improving your stance
6 - Digging into sand could be construed as building a stance
7 - Letting the club squash down the grass could be deemed to be improving your lie

A whole lot of "could be"'s there, all of which Id say every golfer does and isnt a penalty.
Exact same scenario with the flag, only difference I can see is that the rule changed recently

Larry Wildman

Golfnut77 wrote: »

What choice do I have? I would expect that if I tell someone they are breaking a rule that they will either say fair enough and accept it or say that they don't agree and we'll check it out afterwards.

I didn't expect that guy to behave like he did both before and after, I'm not willing to go to court over a golf ruling and I think 99.99999% of the time no one would go to the lengths this guy has.

Are you saying that because I pull guys up when they're breaking the rules that by not pursuing this to the end, I'm being a hypocrite?

I'm on your side Golfnut (based on what I've read), but having said that if I was a member of your club, I'd probably think that you are an unreliable Walter Mitty type character who isn't sure whether he saw a King Cobra SZ 440 Unlimited.

Simply because you dropped it. You should have followed through (i.e. asked to address committee, canvassed other members who may have seen the Cobra driver, etc).

I believe you but beyond this thread I'd conclude that you're a spooofer who isn't quite sure what he saw simply because you dropped the matter.

For the integrity of the game, you have to follow this up.

FixdePitchmark

Golfnut77 wrote: »

What choice do I have? I would expect that if I tell someoimpact.
e they are breaking a rule that they will either say fair enough and accept it or say that they don't agree and we'll check it out afterwards.

I didn't expect that guy to behave like he did both before and after, I'm not willing to go to court over a golf ruling and I think 99.99999% of the time no one would go to the lengths this guy has.

Are you saying that because I pull guys up when they're breaking the rules that by not pursuing this to the end, I'm being a hypocrite?

I'm saying that there are daft rules in golf and 99.99999% of the time they have no Impact on the game. Use matchplay to let some go.

Taking an impractical high ground on some stuff is not worth it.

Don't say posters on here who deal with situations are cheats are bringing the tournament into disrepute.

I have respect for your knowledge of the game. But, being excessively aggressive in the pursuit of perfection is not practical for 99.99999 % of golfers.

namloc1980

Golfnut77 wrote: »

Although he dealt with it in a horrible way he still did the right thing, if it was me I would have said it to your father instead of confronting you especially at that age.

Would you have preferred to have won and then later learn that you should have been DQ'd? There would always be that cloud hanging over your win, an asterisk next to your name etc. And at least from that situation you learned the rule and won't be repeating it, imagine if he didn't pull you on it and you were playing a far more important tournament down the line, same scenario except a playing partner tells you you're disqualified for doing it but you say "I did it in the Captain's Prize a few years ago and it was fine?", again don't agree with how he approached it, almost as if he enjoyed it but it was the right thing to do.

That's why I always have and always will call up playing partners on rules and I would hope they would do the same with me as I definitely don't know all of them.

But it wasn't a rules infringement. The ball landed an inch from the hole and he tapped in. Unless you believe a 15 year old needs a flag stick to lean on and support him to tap in a 1 inch putt then no infringement occurred. In equity this wasn't an issue. It was simply a case of the auld fella being peed off that a junior was winning.

GreeBo

namloc1980 wrote: »

But it wasn't a rules infringement. The ball landed an inch from the hole and he tapped in. Unless you believe a 15 year old needs a flag stick to lean on and support him to tap in a 1 inch putt then no infringement occurred. In equity this wasn't an issue. It was simply a case of the auld fella being peed off that a junior was winning.

rule at the time was you couldnt putt while holding the flag, so a clear rules violation

namloc1980

GreeBo wrote: »

rule at the time was you couldnt putt while holding the flag, so a clear rules violation

Under what rule was that?

Wombatman

People are forgetting that OPs actions were in the interest of his opponent and his fellow club members.

How many competitions did your man enter with this driver while it was nonconforming? How many would he enter in future?

Your man should have thanked OP by right for saving him future embarrassment and appealed for a rematch at a later date with a different driver, which I'm sure the Op would have conceded to had you man not been a complete cnut.

OP should be complemented on his knowledge of equipment and rules, and not be subjected to any more nit picking.