Illegal Driver in club matchplay?

yes there

@Golfnutt7

Interesting read this thread but I cant understand why you have dropped the case and let this guy get off the hook while also being a stickler for the rules with no leeway or discretion/common sense? It just does not add up. In a way you are contradicting yourself.

GreeBo

yes there wrote: »

@Golfnutt7

Interesting read this thread but I cant understand why you have dropped the case and let this guy get off the hook while also being a stickler for the rules with no leeway or discretion/common sense? It just does not add up. In a way you are contradicting yourself.

Off what hook
No proof means no hook.

yes there

GreeBo wrote: »

Off what hook
No proof means no hook.

As far as I was aware the accuser held the club in his hand. If he sticks to the rules as much as he said he does then why not follow up more to get the accused punished. I think its evident he deserves action against him.

agusta

This thread as ran its course i think or we will be here until next year,just an opinion

the greatest game

God almighty, Conforming or not, it would have made no real difference to the match, im sure its not the driver that put him three up ! ,

Golfnut77 wrote: »

Wondering if ye can give me some advice.

Played yesterday in the club matchplay singles, the guy I played against was using an old Cobra driver the King Cobra 440 SZ Unlimited to be exact.

I had suspicions early on in the round, since I know that's one of the most notorious of the illegal drivers. He was 3 up thru 9 and after teeing off the 10th I asked if I could have a look at his driver, so I see that its the 440 SZ Unlimited and I tell him I'm almost certain that it is non conforming. This leads to an expletive filled rant, and how dare I accuse him of cheating. We finish out the match he won 2 & 1, no shaking hands, he storms off to the pro shop and goes off on another rant of how I called him a cheater etc.

I have contacted the competition secretary as I would imagine he is disqualified and I should be through to the next round or am I wrong? Still no reply from competition secretary.

Maybe I should have waited until after the round until I brought it up but can't change that now.

Am I in the wrong?

SnowDrifts

the greatest game wrote: »

God almighty, Conforming or not, it would have made no real difference to the match, im sure its not the driver that put him three up ! ,

Neither would grounding a club in a hazard, causing the ball to rotate a dimple whilst addressing a putt, having a toe in GUR after taking relief etc.

They are all breaches of the rules and it's the OP's prerogative to call him out. Personally, with regards to the driver, I would have waited until after the match and just said something along the lines of "I have a funny feeling that driver might be illegal so you might want to check it out before your next match".

Goldenjohn

the greatest game wrote: »

God almighty, Conforming or not, it would have made no real difference to the match, im sure its not the driver that put him three up ! ,

Definitely made some difference to the accused....why else would he have chosen to use it over the titleist driver? He must have seen a difference in the performance of the 2 clubs. Whether it affected the outcome of the match we'll never know but the op was right to pull him on it.

the greatest game

That would have been a good way to deal with it, say it at the end of the game, " for your own sake " etc etc.

Not in the middle of a match when you are three down, Yes - he is technically correct ! but in the interests of the spirit of the game he would have been better off leaving it lie,

SnowDrifts wrote: »

Neither would grounding a club in a hazard, causing the ball to rotate a dimple whilst addressing a putt, having a toe in GUR after taking relief etc.

They are all breaches of the rules and it's the OP's prerogative to call him out. Personally, with regards to the driver, I would have waited until after the match and just said something along the lines of "I have a funny feeling that driver might be illegal so you might want to check it out before your next match".

Norfolk Enchants_

the greatest game wrote: »

That would have been a good way to deal with it, say it at the end of the game, " for your own sake " etc etc.

Not in the middle of a match when you are three down, Yes - he is technically correct ! but in the interests of the spirit of the game he would have been better off leaving it lie,

You haven't really thought that one through have you?, how is it in the interest of the game that your opponent is cheating against you now and is likely to continue cheating into the future?.
If nothing else at least the OP had the courage of his convictions to highlight the issue and has got this individual to curb his cheating if only for the time been.

GreeBo

yes there wrote: »

As far as I was aware the accuser held the club in his hand. If he sticks to the rules as much as he said he does then why not follow up more to get the accused punished. I think its evident he deserves action against him.

Still not proof that anyone can use in any situation.

Committee etc can do nothing with one mans word against another.

Dayor Knight

Goldenjohn wrote: »

Definitely made some difference to the accused....why else would he have chosen to use it over the titleist driver? He must have seen a difference in the performance of the 2 clubs. Whether it affected the outcome of the match we'll never know but the op was right to pull him on it.

Yes, and how many years now has that driver been out of date. So there has to be a reason he's using it. The likelihood is he prefers it, gives him a bit more distance, hits it straighter or whatever. So he has been using an illegal club that gives him an advantage of some sort. OP right to call it, and Imo right to drop it at this point given the response received. Life is just too short.....

rrpc

Golfnut77 wrote: »

So your thought process would be to only call a guy if you feel they are gaining an advantage from it?

That's fair enough but for me the rules are there for a reason and if you're playing competitively regardless of matchplay or stroke then you should abide by them. There's some ridiculous rules for instance when you're in a bunker hit the lip, ball rebounds and hits you, 2 stroke penalty. That's a ridiculous rule, but I play the game so I abide by it and expect my fellow competitors to do the same.

The purpose of rules is to prevent a player gaining an advantage unfairly. They aren't an end in themselves and the rule book would be a lot thinner if people didn't constantly try to use loopholes to gain an advantage.

The ball hitting you on the rebound could be used to deflect it into a more favourable position. Without that rule you could have lads dancing around the bunker trying to deflect the ball out of it.

Yes there are basic rules to set out the parameters of the competition; all sports have them. But those rules that look stupid from the outside are there because some chancer tried to gain an advantage or an equipment manufacturer started to push the envelope to the extreme.

Larry Wildman

But rules regarding illegal clubs are "black and white".

The only mistake that the OP made in my view is dropping this.

GreeBo

Larry Wildman wrote: »

But rules regarding illegal clubs are "black and white".

The only mistake that the OP made in my view is dridntopping this.

how do you reckon he continues?
call a meeting with the committee and stand there for two hours going
- oh yes you did
- oh no I didnt

?

Larry Wildman

GreeBo wrote: »

how do you reckon he continues?
call a meeting with the committee and stand there for two hours going
- oh yes you did
- oh no I didnt

?

Of course not.

Personally I would write to the committee or address them. I'd be explicit regarding what I saw, but accept that it is his word against mine.

I would want it to get to a point where everyone is in no doubt that there are only two possibilities regarding what happened:

a) The guy with the driver is a liar and a cheat.

b) I am utterly insane.

If I see you with a King Cobra SZ 440 Unlimited and I actually look at the club and you subsequently deny that it ever took place, I would want to discuss it at an open forum.

If a group of reasonable people observe the following exchange, what are they likely to conclude?

"I looked at the sole of the driver. It was a King Cobra SZ 440 Unlimited. I saw it as clear as the light of day"

"He is mistaken. It's a Titleist"

Benny Cake

GreeBo wrote: »

how do you reckon he continues?
call a meeting with the committee and stand there for two hours going
- oh yes you did
- oh no I didnt

?

Personally, if it were me, I'd make this pr1ck call me a liar in front of the committee. This is not a court of law, it's one mans word against another and I'd like to have his lies on the record. Leaving it lay at as things stand is letting this guy off far too easy. The OP has done nothing wrong and even is this guy can't be "convicted" on the crime, I'd make life as difficult as possible for him.

Maybe I'm just a vindictive f*cker, but thats how I would handle it....

Montgolfier

I think the commitee know the guy is lying.
Why else would he not show his driver to someone else?
The guy in the pro shop perhaps.
Leave this guy as he is sure to trip himself up again. His rep will preceded him.

First Up

Benny Cake wrote: »

Personally, if it were me, I'd make this pr1ck call me a liar in front of the committee. This is not a court of law, it's one mans word against another and I'd like to have his lies on the record. Leaving it lay at as things stand is letting this guy off far too easy. The OP has done nothing wrong and even is this guy can't be "convicted" on the crime, I'd make life as difficult as possible for him.

Maybe I'm just a vindictive f*cker, but thats how I would handle it....

Easy to say when you don't have to consider or live with the fall-out. OP is dead right to let it play out.

slave1

Fine line between this incident ending as is or dicing with court over slander, I've seen a guy I used to play with the odd time be unfairly punished by an aloof committe and it nearly end up in legal hands, sickening to everyone who knew him, nasty old school of all that was wrong with golf back in the day (snooty or 'click' committee).

blackwhite

Golfnut77 wrote: »

See resting it against your shoulder could be deemed an aid, using it to keep your body still etc. I'd rather not have any part of the flag resting against me or me leaning on it into the ground, just hovering it avoids all potential problems.

I in no way try and catch people out, if I know a rule it's because either I was a victim of it or it happened to one of my playing partners and so am 100% sure of it then I will know what to do if it occurs again. In that case then I have a duty to call a player on it. I'm surprised that not everyone sees it that way and are happy to pick and choose what rules to apply where.

Nobody is picking and choosing what rules to apply, the rules state that the player must be using the flag as an aid for a penalty to apply. Not fully understanding a rule doesn't make it a rule.
Read decision 17-1/5 - nowhere does it state that the flag touching the green is what determines a penalty.
Taking the hypothetical to extremes based on "might haves" IS trying to catch an opponent out - a flag leaning against somebody is blindingly different to somebody leaning on a flag, or using it for balance. What MIGHT have happened is irrelevent, the fact is always that the player either used for flag for support/balance or they did not - and it is only if they actually did that a penalty applies.

If someone is in the trees and dislodges a single leaf with a practice swing, would you try and call them on that too? Because you would nearly always be wrong to do so (Decision 13-2/0.5), but yet I've seen people try to call this countless times - despite the notion that the swing area was improved is laughable.

Wichita Lineman

TheDoc wrote: »

Nice one, thanks for the information lads.

Good to hear, it was a stupid rule. As normal thought with our club, very poor information regarding rule updates changes, seen nothing on the website or notice board on route to the first tee

Responsibility is on players to familiarise themselves with the rules so no point in blaming 'the club'. The rules must be on a hundreds of websites at this stage and I'm sure the majority of clubs around the country are like Moate in that they always make sure there are free rules handbooks available for members.

Loire

It's always going to be difficult when it comes to applying the rules of golf. For me, the most important word in all of this is the word material. Did the breach result in a material impact on the shot/hole/game? If my opponent knocks a leaf during a practice swing I would let this go (bad example I know as it's been allowed now I see, but you get my drift). If he used an illegal driver and knocked it 30 yards beyond me then I would call him on it, if, on the otherhand, he was still behind me I would probably just have a word after the game.

GreeBo

Loire wrote: »

It's always going to be difficult when it comes to applying the rules of golf. For me, the most important word in all of this is the word material. Did the breach result in a material impact on the shot/hole/game? If my opponent knocks a leaf during a practice swing I would let this go (bad example I know as it's been allowed now I see, but you get my drift). If he used an illegal driver and knocked it 30 yards beyond me then I would call him on it, if, on the otherhand, he was still behind me I would probably just have a word after the game.

What if you saw him without the illegal driver and he was 30 yards behind you?

rrpc

GreeBo wrote: »

What if you saw him without the illegal driver and he was 30 yards behind you?

I'd be happy...

On two counts

GreeBo

rrpc wrote: »

I'd be happy...

On two counts

Even if he had beaten you even while he was illegally gaining 30 yards off the tee?

Loire

GreeBo wrote: »

What if you saw him without the illegal driver and he was 30 yards behind you?

Hi GreeBo,

Then that would be a material improvement so I'd call him on it.

Loire

GreeBo

Loire wrote: »

Hi GreeBo,

Then that would be a material improvement so I'd call him on it.

Loire

But you said you wouldnt call it during the match if he was 5 yards behind you...
Thats my point, he beats you in a match but is 5 yards behind you, later you see him using a legal driver and he is 30 yards back from where he used to be.

Too late for you to do anything then, thats why rules are rules and are valid all the time.

Loire

GreeBo wrote: »

But you said you wouldnt call it during the match if he was 5 yards behind you...
Thats my point, he beats you in a match but is 5 yards behind you, later you see him using a legal driver and he is 30 yards back from where he used to be.

Too late for you to do anything then, thats why rules are rules and are valid all the time.

I probably wasn't been clear. Lets say we're both playing well. For me that would be driving the ball 230 yards, so he's at 225 yards with the dodgy club. For him to then drop to 200 yards with his legal club, losing 25 yards, I would like to think that it would be noticeable from the rest of his play...he should be shorter with his irons/woods etc. For example he's probably only hitting his 7 iron 125 yards.

I totally accept it's not scientific. It was just meant to illustrate how I would handle the situation.

In any case, I really don't know much about club technoology and would doubt that an average player would gain a material advantage with a non-conforming club - if I felt that the advantage was material I would call him on it, if not then I would have a friendly word with him afterwards.

Hope this clears my point

Loire.

frost53

A lot of input into this thread. Might be worth considering Lee Trevino's well used gem:
It's not the arrow that counts, It's the Indian.

Larry Wildman

frost53 wrote: »

A lot of input into this thread. Might be worth considering Lee Trevino's well used gem:
It's not the arrow that counts, It's the Indian.

If that's the case, why have rules regarding equipment at all?