Illegal Driver in club matchplay?

Golfnut77

I have decided to not take this matter any further, my claim was always dependent on the integrity of my opponent, I never once thought that he would pull something like this. But if he keeps denying it and I keep pushing it then it could all end up in court eventually.

I have played with the guy that he has been drawn against in the next round a few times, I'll have a quiet word with him to keep an eye on the driver and pull him up on it if it's the Cobra although I doubt he'll use it again.

Innish_Rebel

Golfnut77 wrote: »

I have decided to not take this matter any further, my claim was always dependent on the integrity of my opponent, I never once thought that he would pull something like this. But if he keeps denying it and I keep pushing it then it could all end up in court eventually.

I have played with the guy that he has been drawn against in the next round a few times, I'll have a quiet word with him to keep an eye on the driver and pull him up on it if it's the Cobra although I doubt he'll use it again.

A tough position for you. I know there was a lot of advice saying take it as far as you can (me included) - committees etc... But easier said than done, not sure what I'd have done in you position, good luck & good golfing going forward.

Seve OB

Golfnut77 wrote: »

I have decided to not take this matter any further, my claim was always dependent on the integrity of my opponent, I never once thought that he would pull something like this. But if he keeps denying it and I keep pushing it then it could all end up in court eventually.

I have played with the guy that he has been drawn against in the next round a few times, I'll have a quiet word with him to keep an eye on the driver and pull him up on it if it's the Cobra although I doubt he'll use it again.

You know I think you have made the right decision here. I would purposely go out of my way however and do two things.

1. Confront the individual face to face and with no witnesses, just tell him nice and politely something along the lines of
"I think you ought to be ashamed of your behaviour on the day of our match and if you feel comfortable telling lies to the committee, then I'm sure you feel comfortable living with those lies. You know that I know the truth, and that is good enough for me. All the best in the next round"

and shake his hand (well at the very least offer a handshake) and walk away. Don't let him have any chance to respond.

2. Again, face to face, approach the committee member who replied to you with something like
"I understand I put you in an awkward position but I accept your decision on the matter with good grace. I would like to assure you that I was not making these accusations out of any kind of spite or ill feelings. I actually held the club in my hand so I know the truth and I'm happy to put it in the past."

Of course I would have no gripe with the committee member so would be happy to engage in further conversation if he wished.

I would not say anything to another soul in the place, so if word does get around, you can hold your head up high in the knowledge that your trap has remained shut and your dignity is still intact.

GreeBo

Montgolfier wrote: »

Would this be a conforming driver?

http://www.donedeal.ie/view/7181674
king cobra driver for sale

No, .83 COR, .8 is the legal max.

DuckSlice

slave1 wrote: »

They're legal now

Not legal as a DMD tho I think!

SnowDrifts

etxp wrote: »

Not legal as a DMD tho I think!

They are legal to use now.... with some limitations. The R&A and USGA have made a balls of this and have only added to general confusion.

In January, they removed the prohibition on using a compass so that paved the way for smartphones to be used as DMD.

There is an updated flowchart here...

http://www.usga.org/uploadedFiles/USGAHome/equipment/DMD%20flowchartv1-3.pdf

DuckSlice

SnowDrifts wrote: »

They are legal to use now.... with some limitations. The R&A and USGA have made a balls of this and have only added to general confusion.

In January, they removed the prohibition on using a compass so that paved the way for smartphones to be used as DMD.


There is an updated flowchart here...

http://www.usga.org/uploadedFiles/USGAHome/equipment/DMD%20flowchartv1-3.pdf

Yea but I thought if they are capable of measuring slope u can't use them?

SnowDrifts

etxp wrote: »

Yea but I thought if they are capable of measuring slope u can't use them?

That's what I thought too... but from the flow chart above, it suggests that a "spirit level" would be fine provided it is not used during the round to assist the player.

tayto lover

That lad could advertise 100 illegal drivers for sale on Done Deal.
There's no evidence to prove that he used an illegal club during the match.

Montgolfier

GreeBo wrote: »

No, .83 COR, .8 is the legal max.

Is that the face thickness?
0.03" difference is a lot almost 1 mm thinner.
I hit the new bio cell irons they have very then faces too. I wonder is there a limit on the irons too? I was hitting a 7 iron 190yds guy suggested an x stiff shaft cos it was to far to be hitting a 7 iron.

Larry Wildman

By not pursuing this, the OP will have an odium about him - The consensus may be that he made the allegation up or didn't see the driver properly.

Following through 100% is the only way to go.

First Up

Larry Wildman wrote: »

By not pursuing this, the OP will have an odium about him - The consensus may be that he made the allegation up or didn't see the driver properly.

Following through 100% is the only way to go.

I really don't think we can advise on this from a distance. The OP has to judge what is appropriate and especially what is possible. My inclination would be to leave it where it is - enough done.

GreeBo

Montgolfier wrote: »

Is that the face thickness?
0.03" difference is a lot almost 1 mm thinner.
I hit the new bio cell irons they have very then faces too. I wonder is there a limit on the irons too? I was hitting a 7 iron 190yds guy suggested an x stiff shaft cos it was to far to be hitting a 7 iron.

Nah, coefficient of restitution aka trampoline effect.
0.0 for no reaction imagine jelly hitting concrete, 1.0 for snooker balls hitting each other.

Edit, also .83. Is the new limit, .86 was the cobra

TheDoc

Golfnut77 wrote: »

Really? I always call players when their breaking a rule, how else will they learn?

Yeah there are some rules I simply just don't feel the need to wreck someones day or score over.

Some cases I'll mention it to someone casually and just more of a "just so you know for the future"., but some rules I actually despise.

One of which is when someone rakes a bunker, before taking their shot. Few times I've seen lads go in to get the rake, then rake their footsteps as they come out, and walk around the other side to their ball. This to me is not a big deal, and is avoiding needless time wasted. I'm not pulling up a 18 handicapper for raking his footsteps, trying to claim he was getting a "feel" for the bunker.

Similar one is anchoring the flag on the ground when putting. Few times lads would be on the lip or an inch or something, and go up and to finish out take the flag out and have it resting on the ground for the tapin. Point being they now go away and are tendering the flag, I'm not pulling someone up claiming that them resting the flag provided a big advantage for their 1 inch putt.

I know the rules are the rules, but I'm not playing on the proffesional tour, and don't enjoy wrecking someones score or card, over certain absolute rubbish rules.

Don't get me wrong like, I don't avoid confrontation, I've pulled up people cheating, and have made a good few enemies over it, but I knew I was 100% right and that I'm not letting pure cheats get away with it.

TheDoc

I have this feeling and behaviour I think from an experience that happened to me. At 15 I was playing in the adults presidents cup prize and was shooting a great score. As I came up to the 18th I was in the bunker on the right, and managed to hit a lovely shot to about an inch, tap in.

My playing partners were preparing their putts, and I went up, pulled the flag out and rested it behind me as I tapped in, then moved away tending the flag.

I got an applause from the spectators outside the clubhouse for a great shot, and word had gone around I was shooting a great score.

We finished up and my Da was estatic, I was looking good to be the first junior to win an adult event of that size, and I was getting loads of congratulations from other players as I was walking up to the locker room. Then this old wanker, someone I genuinely despise, and has years has gone on I know is a cheater, and fixes his handicapp, approached me and asked did I mark myself down the penalty. Said it loud enough to ensure everyone heard. I asked what penalty, and he said I had rested the flag for my tapin and that was a penalty. He snatched my card from my hand and said that I hadn't and had signed an incorrect score, and was disqualified. He handed me the card back and shuffled off back into the clubhouse. Granted some other things happened but not for this forum, I had the winning score, but alas was dq'd.

I know now that is infact a rule, from around 100 people watching, he was the only one that felt the need to say it. I'd no idea of it at the time obviously. And there was obviously no advantage gained, but sure there you go.

Since then I've been sure to use my own sense of cop on and decision making when it comes to the more obscurious rules of golf. Not only will I always remember his smug look, and his horrible attitude, but I know now how that moment had him marginalised in the club and turned into a pretty hated figure.

If I was to be a stickler for rules, I'd say I'd get myself a pretty wankery name around the club. I know the rules now as I've grown up, something I made sure to learn so I'd never be caught out again, but the amount of people getting rules wrong or incorrect, especially regarding red and yellow stakes among other things, I'd be handing out penatlies like the Traffic Corps.

alxmorgan

TheDoc wrote: »

Yeah there are some rules I simply just don't feel the need to wreck someones day or score over.

Some cases I'll mention it to someone casually and just more of a "just so you know for the future"., but some rules I actually despise.

One of which is when someone rakes a bunker, before taking their shot. Few times I've seen lads go in to get the rake, then rake their footsteps as they come out, and walk around the other side to their ball. This to me is not a big deal, and is avoiding needless time wasted. I'm not pulling up a 18 handicapper for raking his footsteps, trying to claim he was getting a "feel" for the bunker.

Similar one is anchoring the flag on the ground when putting. Few times lads would be on the lip or an inch or something, and go up and to finish out take the flag out and have it resting on the ground for the tapin. Point being they now go away and are tendering the flag, I'm not pulling someone up claiming that them resting the flag provided a big advantage for their 1 inch putt.

I know the rules are the rules, but I'm not playing on the proffesional tour, and don't enjoy wrecking someones score or card, over certain absolute rubbish rules.

Don't get me wrong like, I don't avoid confrontation, I've pulled up people cheating, and have made a good few enemies over it, but I knew I was 100% right and that I'm not letting pure cheats get away with it.

Good job you don't pull on this as you'd be wrong to do so

http://www.barryrhodes.com/2012/11/testing-condition-of-bunker.html

Seve OB

TheDoc wrote: »

One of which is when someone rakes a bunker, before taking their shot. Few times I've seen lads go in to get the rake, then rake their footsteps as they come out, and walk around the other side to their ball. This to me is not a big deal, and is avoiding needless time wasted. I'm not pulling up a 18 handicapper for raking his footsteps, trying to claim he was getting a "feel" for the bunker.

FYI

that's perfectly legal now. change about 18 months ago. as long as they are not improving their lie

TheDoc

Nice one, thanks for the information lads.

Good to hear, it was a stupid rule. As normal thought with our club, very poor information regarding rule updates changes, seen nothing on the website or notice board on route to the first tee

GreeBo

alxmorgan wrote: »

Good job you don't pull on this as you'd be wrong to do so

http://www.barryrhodes.com/2012/11/testing-condition-of-bunker.html

Likewise for the flag "incident".
Unless you are actively using the flag to support/anchor yourself its not an issue. 14-3/9
Again, the player is the sole judge of this.

TheDoc

GreeBo wrote: »

Likewise for the flag "incident".
Unless you are actively using the flag to support/anchor yourself its not an issue. 14-3/9
Again, the player is the sole judge of this.

Double brilliant news.

So if you are very evidently making a tap in, and the flag just happens to be touching the green ,it's no big deal?

Golfnut77

TheDoc wrote: »

Double brilliant news.

So if you are very evidently making a tap in, and the flag just happens to be touching the green ,it's no big deal?

I'm not 100% sure on that one, whenever I'm tapping in and holding the flag I make sure it's not touching the ground just so the question isn't asked.

But as far as I know the rule is the flag can't be used to build a stance ie leaning against the flag for support etc. but it's fairly open to interpretation.

Russman

Golfnut77 wrote: »

I'm not 100% sure on that one, whenever I'm tapping in and holding the flag I make sure it's not touching the ground just so the question isn't asked.

But as far as I know the rule is the flag can't be used to build a stance ie leaning against the flag for support etc. but it's fairly open to interpretation.

I haven't looked up the wording, but if the player is indeed the sole judge of whether he's building a stance or using the flag for support, someone would want to be a bit of a d1ck to question them on it, if its patently clear they're not doing so, and are just tapping in.

GreeBo

Golfnut77 wrote: »

I'm not 100% sure on that one, whenever I'm tapping in and holding the flag I make sure it's not touching the ground just so the question isn't asked.

But as far as I know the rule is the flag can't be used to build a stance ie leaning against the flag for support etc. but it's fairly open to interpretation.

You cant build a stance, from Stadtler kneeling on a towel to resting against a club/flag its a no no.
However, holding the flag isnt necessarily building a stance, whether the flag be on the ground or not.
Player is the judge.

Golfnut77

GreeBo wrote: »

You cant build a stance, from Stadtler kneeling on a towel to resting against a club/flag its a no no.
However, holding the flag isnt necessarily building a stance, whether the flag be on the ground or not.
Player is the judge.

I personally don't see how it's possible to build a stance with the flagstick, if anything it would hinder the shot and you're more likely to miss the putt than if you took your normal stroke, but again it's in the rules and we should abide by them.

In Linda Miller's answer to this Q she doesn't state anything about the player being the judge, if the flagstick is touching the ground then you may well be called on it.

I can't post links as a new user but she answers here lindamillergolf.blogspot.ie/2013/04/ask-linda-648-putt-holding-flagstick.html

Russman

By the way Op, glad you reached a decision to leave things as they are.
In the cold light of day, when the emotions aren't running as high and with a little time, I've no doubt they real story will get out (the grapevine is amazing in golf circles) and yer man's name will be sh1t, if it isn't or wasn't already, and all over an internal club match.

newport2

Golfnut77 wrote: »

I personally don't see how it's possible to build a stance with the flagstick, if anything it would hinder the shot and you're more likely to miss the putt than if you took your normal stroke, but again it's in the rules and we should abide by them.

In Linda Miller's answer to this Q she doesn't state anything about the player being the judge, if the flagstick is touching the ground then you may well be called on it.

I can't post links as a new user but she answers here lindamillergolf.blogspot.ie/2013/04/ask-linda-648-putt-holding-flagstick.html

She also says the penalty is disqualification. Is this correct?

"However, if the flagstick is touching the ground, it might appear that you are using the flagstick to help steady yourself. This would constitute using equipment in an unusual manner, and is a violation of Rule 14-3 [Decision 14-3/9]. The penalty is disqualification."

Golfnut77

newport2 wrote: »

She also says the penalty is disqualification. Is this correct?

"However, if the flagstick is touching the ground, it might appear that you are using the flagstick to help steady yourself. This would constitute using equipment in an unusual manner, and is a violation of Rule 14-3 [Decision 14-3/9]. The penalty is disqualification."

I believe so, Rule 14-3a states that a player may not use any artificial device or unusual equipment that “might assist him making a stroke or in his play".

This was on the PGA tour in the last few years where Jeff Overton was waiting on a tee box on the back 9, play was backed up so he took his putting training aid over to the practice putting green for a few minutes and under the rule he was DQ'd.

newport2

Golfnut77 wrote: »

I believe so, Rule 14-3a states that a player may not use any artificial device or unusual equipment that “might assist him making a stroke or in his play".

This was on the PGA tour in the last few years where Jeff Overton was waiting on a tee box on the back 9, play was backed up so he took his putting training aid over to the practice putting green for a few minutes and under the rule he was DQ'd.

Interesting. I had assumed it was a 2 stroke penalty and only DQ if you signed card without adding it on. Good to know!

searay

Golfnut77,

Your opponent broke a rule and should have been disqualified and I think you've been hard done by, particularly by your club who should back up a player who plays fair and reports a rules breach.

I would encourage you to go above your competition secretary's head to other committee members and captain to see if they'll give you a fair hearing. The GUI have been known to offer good support to clubs where cheating issues have come up.

I would be concerned that this thread has had a huge number of views and if the story ends now, some readers may get the impression that rule breaking and cheating win over playing with honour.

GreeBo

There is no proof available to either side in this situation.
Not much the OP can do other than drop it.