Relationship Forums.

kneemos

You don't allow medical advice to be given so why are unqualified people allowed give advice on the relationship forums?

Tom Dunne

kneemos wrote: »

You don't allow medical advice to be given so why are unqualified people allowed give advice on the relationship forums?

Because it's based on opinion. Relationship advice is in a totally different league to medical advice.

And I'm not sure how you would be qualified to give relationship advice. Does 17 years of happy marriage qualify me?

kneemos

So it's OK to give "an opinion"on obvious mental health issue's that I've seen in Parenting,Personal Issue's and the Teen forum?

Tom Dunne

Are you qualified to define and diagnose an obvious mental health issue?

kneemos

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Are you qualified to define and diagnose an obvious mental health issue?

That's just being argumentative.I'd expect more in the way of reasoned response .

Certainly not qualified in any way apart from life experience but as I say you wouldn't need a
degree to see that some of the issue's are "obviously" serious.

The Peanut

This issue is something that I've thought about too.

In many threads, folks are providing information or giving an opinion. But in some of the listed areas, it's more than that. I too am happily married with kids a longtime and I have great admiration for contributors who post in some of the more "emotional" threads. I think it takes a strength of character and conviction to contribute to post in some of the more emotionally-charged threads.

I'm very conscious that the OP is often quite vulnerable and I'm acutely aware that my opinion could influence an individual that may not be in the most secure of environments. That being said, most people are capable of weighing up opinions and advice in an effective way. But it's those that are not that set off alarm bells in my head.

I totally understand the benefits offered by boards and many contributors provide solid, effective and necessary advice. I guess I just don't sit comfortably with the possibility of incorrectly assisting a stranger in making the wrong decision in some situations.

Overheal

Well people are hardly citing the DSM-5 when they post.

You might as well argue people need a degree in Political Theory to discuss politics.

The Peanut

Overheal wrote: »

Well people are hardly citing the DSM-5 when they post.

You might as well argue people need a degree in Political Theory to discuss politics.

But it's not the same and that is the point.

Providing opinion and information versus advice are 2 different things.

I wasn't specifically referring to mental issues; I have no experience in this field so it's not an area I feel that I can usually offer any relevant advice.

But I have been through the ringer emotionally so I'm acutely aware that providing my opinion to someone I don't know may not be the right thing to do.

Discussing the politician repercussions of what's happening in the Ukraine is far less likely to cause issues for a poster than advising them how to proceed during a marriage break-up.

Just my opinion.

Tom Dunne

kneemos wrote: »

That's just being argumentative.I'd expect more in the way of reasoned response .

Certainly not qualified in any way apart from life experience but as I say you wouldn't need a
degree to see that some of the issue's are "obviously" serious.

The only way to deal with such issues is to report the post and have the moderators make a call.

Tokyo

For me the distinction is pretty clear - I'm not going to potentially kill somebody by offering an opinion on their relationship - I may very well do so if I offer an opinion on a medical condition they may or may not have, or if I recommend a medication. Not too long ago we had a poster claiming to be a qualified GP in order to lend weight to their posts - I presume that you can see the obvious danger there, compared to a poster that said they were an expert in relationships. Nobody is an expert in relationships - we've all been through the same wringer at some stage and are therefore able to offer the benefit of our own experiences for others.

Nobody in the PI/RI fora claims to be experts on relationships or personal problems in general - it's more of a get-it-out-there-to-see-what-other-people-think kind of place, and we post in it and moderate it as such. It's assumed by default that everyone is offering their own opinion - if someone were to come on there and claim "I am a relationship expert and this is what you should do", it would get pulled pretty quickly. If you take the time to read through some of the posts there, we generally ask posters that are dealing with issues outside the remit of the forum to seek professional help, anyone in distress is referred to turn2me.org and they have a boards representative available as needed, if it's an issue with a partner then posters are more often than not told to talk to their partner about the issue, or if it's an issue that a couple are dealing with, they are asked if they have considered seeking counselling together, from a professional. Anybody in a relationship that we feel is in danger, we try to refer to women's aid/amen/childline and so on. Something that may not be visible on the surface either is the fact that we regularly PM for support if we feel that someone needs help outside of our remit - most recently we put two posts to admin/legal where we felt that a child may be in danger.

Other than the topics I've mentioned, relationship issues posts are generally along the lines of someone looking for a bit of moral support after going through a bad breakup, dealing with an overbearing family, or just having a hard time of it at the moment. And moral support is something I feel that we are all "qualified" to give.

The Peanut

Hi mike,

Thanks for this,

I have read quite a few posts on the Personal and Relationship areas and I can see your advice is typically quite sensible and well-regarded.

I am not in anyway trying to have a pop at boards; it's just that I'm not often comfortable myself offering advice to folks I don't know.

I'm not someone who would have a huge online presence; I'm not involved in many sites and I don't do twitter or Facebook. I have no problem offering advice to friends/people I know as I'm aware of all aspects of their lives, so I feel that I can provide rounded advice. As much as the advice provided here is good and probably necessary, it's probably a reflection of changing times - for better or worse - that we don't speak to those around us; I'm aware that some people can't.

I like the broad nature of boards. I typically read the latest posts and if I have something to say, I will. I can see many people get a lot of enjoyment/benefit out if it which is great. I've also seen the wonderful links to assistance for folks who need it and that has to be applauded.

Anyway, I've probably hijacked the OP's query slightly so I'll stop. Thanks again for comments.

Calhoun

Good response Mike, I can't believe this is even a thread. I would either wonder what the hell the op is looking at or refer to Tom's statement about qualifications to diagnose mental health issues. Anytime I have seen something come close it is normally locked and the op referred to a professional.

I don't buy this view that you could incorrectly assist someone , PI/RI is all about getting a different opinion or point of view based on people's experiences. More often than not mike and co have to break up a fight because people differ on advice give and because of this it's nearly self regulating that you will not get extremely incorrect advice.

What you normally get is more than one opinion on a topic and seasoned posters will ask follow on questions to ensure the situation is as the op advised and the advice fits.

Brilliant forum driven by a very helpful community, and with a very proactive mod team I don't think there is more to add here .

nesf

There's a world of difference between saying to a depressed person "go get some more exercise" and "stop taking your medication." A doctor might say either to you but anyone can say the former.

I imagine specific legal advice about divorce settlements would get deleted pretty fast in Relationship Issues if you want an analogy.

RDM_83 again

nesf wrote: »

I imagine specific legal advice about divorce settlements would get deleted pretty fast in Relationship Issues if you want an analogy.

Ok i am not sure if my post has been deleted as it had a link to a thread from RI forgot about not linking from there,or if it just failed to post (actually would be hard for mods to simply do a snip of non spam posts rather than them simply vanishing into the ether with no explanation.

Anyway basically it was a thread about committing/sectioning a family member from a few years back which i chanced upon in a google search to reply to an ongoing thread in AH.
It does seem to offer opinions on options and legislation relating to an obviously on going situation for the OP, not against this information being available at all but I would presume it falls foul of whatever rules make the legal advice rules quiet so strict.

Dades

RDM_83 again wrote: »

It does seem to offer opinions on options and legislation relating to an obviously on going situation for the OP, not against this information being available at all but I would presume it falls foul of whatever rules make the legal advice rules quiet so strict.

You would think so on the basis of what you are saying, though given it's an old thread and we can't read it there's not much to be done. I'd be surprised if a current thread allowed that kind of legal advice, tbh.

And there doesn't seem to be any deleted posts in this thread.

Tokyo

Not being able to read the thread it's hard to comment on specifics, but I'd be curious to read the thread to see how it was worded. There is a distinction for me at least between pointing towards legislation that's available on the public domain, and giving legal opinion or advice. It's possible that there was an element of the former in this thread, but again, without seeing it there's no way of knowing.

The second thing is, the current charter that we follow didn't spring out of nowhere, it has evolved over time and experience to the point that it's at today. Reading back on posts from before I became a moderator, there are certainly posts where (for example) moderators were discussing amongst themselves how to handle a poster that was in suicidal distress, as they weren't sure what to do. The current policy on that has evolved from experience in these threads, and the fact that resources such as turn2me.org are now available to us to take on posters that require their experience. Other scenarios covered in the charter have evolved in the same way, based on experience with previous posts as to what works and what doesn't, and what's safest for the OP when dealing with particular situations. Therefore using a years old thread as a basis for discussion of current policy isn't really fair, as one doesn't necessarily reflect the other accurately anymore.

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Ok i am not sure if my post has been deleted as it had a link to a thread from RI forgot about not linking from there,or if it just failed to post (actually would be hard for mods to simply do a snip of non spam posts rather than them simply vanishing into the ether with no explanation.

Anyway basically it was a thread about committing/sectioning a family member from a few years back which i chanced upon in a google search to reply to an ongoing thread in AH.
It does seem to offer opinions on options and legislation relating to an obviously on going situation for the OP, not against this information being available at all but I would presume it falls foul of whatever rules make the legal advice rules quiet so strict.

RDM_83 again

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Ok i am not sure if my post has been deleted as it had a link to a thread from RI forgot about not linking from there.

Ooops it was still there on notepad when I checked this evening so I probably forgot to post

Mike_ie I pm'd you the thread, on a more awake reading its probably the situation as you describe in the 1st paragraph (its from 2011 anyway so pretty old but it pops highly ranked on google)

Edit: not that I am raising this as an issue I am against since this information should be widely available

Mrs OBumble

The Peanut wrote: »

In many threads, folks are providing information or giving an opinion. But in some of the listed areas, it's more than that.

IMHO this point hits on the start of the answer.

In some fields, Irish society (and most 1st world countries) have laws saying that only people with certain training, qualifications and professional registration can give advice or do stuff.

These include health (doctors, nurses, physios, dieticians), financial management (accountants and QFAs), law (lawyers), engineering (engineers), educating children (teachers).

But there are no such laws around relationship advice: anyone can set up as a counsellor, with no training or registration requirements.

From what I can see, boards forum charters operate along the same basis, viz if there's a legislated "professional" role, we don't allow professional advice. But we do allow discussion of the issues, provided it's very clear that it's not professional advice. And where there is no legislated professional role, we allow wider discussion still.

Of course relationship and personal issues are where it can be harder to draw the line between "life advice" and "health advice that should only be given be a professional".

Personally I find it easy to draw the line over in Work and Jobs: If someone says "work is making me depressed, what should I do", then the answers must include "go to your doctor, and do what s/he says". I'm happy if answers also include comments like "when I was stressed, I tried CBT and it worked really well". But if someone posts "You need CBT" (or medication or an exercise regime or whatever), then I will schlap them around and say "no professional advice".

But if someone says "I'm having problems relating to my colleague" - there is no regulated framework to rely on, so I'm open to any respectful answer that anyone gives, including more directive ones.

That's how I think the world works, anyway. Hope it helps.

Mark Tapley

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

IMHO this point hits on the start of the answer.

In some fields, Irish society (and most 1st world countries) have laws saying that only people with certain training, qualifications and professional registration can give advice or do stuff.

These include health (doctors, nurses, physios, dieticians), financial management (accountants and QFAs), law (lawyers), engineering (engineers), educating children (teachers).

But there are no such laws around relationship advice: anyone can set up as a counsellor, with no training or registration requirements.

From what I can see, boards forum charters operate along the same basis, viz if there's a legislated "professional" role, we don't allow professional advice. But we do allow discussion of the issues, provided it's very clear that it's not professional advice. And where there is no legislated professional role, we allow wider discussion still.

Of course relationship and personal issues are where it can be harder to draw the line between "life advice" and "health advice that should only be given be a professional".

Personally I find it easy to draw the line over in Work and Jobs: If someone says "work is making me depressed, what should I do", then the answers must include "go to your doctor, and do what s/he says". I'm happy if answers also include comments like "when I was stressed, I tried CBT and it worked really well". But if someone posts "You need CBT" (or medication or an exercise regime or whatever), then I will schlap them around and say "no professional advice".

But if someone says "I'm having problems relating to my colleague" - there is no regulated framework to rely on, so I'm open to any respectful answer that anyone gives, including more directive ones.

That's how I think the world works, anyway. Hope it helps.

Something like this you mean , Quote Mrs O'Bumble -

OP, you're really not getting the point here.

The LL obviously doesn't give a rats-arse, or else s/he would have re-housed you.

YOU need to find yourself somewhere new to live. Stop wasting time posting here (how can you do that without electricity, btw???),
and start spending it looking for somewhere more appropriate.

Tokyo

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Ooops it was still there on notepad when I checked this evening so I probably forgot to post

Mike_ie I pm'd you the thread, on a more awake reading its probably the situation as you describe in the 1st paragraph (its from 2011 anyway so pretty old but it pops highly ranked on google)

Edit: not that I am raising this as an issue I am against since this information should be widely available

Hi RDM_83,

Seeing as the other PI mods have been around far longer than me, I'm not sure if I'm overstepping my bounds here by taking it upon myself to answer questions on this - apologies to fellow mods/admin if I have. I'd prefer not to post tthe link here as it's policy not to discuss PI/RI threads elsewhere on the site, and the OP might not be happy to see a very personal issue that they thought dead and buried years ago being dragged back to the surface to be used as an example here (I've forwarded it onto others), but I did take the time to read over it, a few times before coming to the following conclusion.

It was a PI thread rather than an RI one - the OP was asking for information on getting mental health assistance for a family member when that family member was acting out of control to the point of being violent, and refusing help. And after reading over it, from what I can see, while posters there are providing information about the process followed that is publicly available, nobody is stating "your brother in law is obviously suffering from XXXXX disorder" or "this is what you need to do" - every post there recommends that the first step the OP need to take is to consult with a professional and get their assistance - GP, community nurse and Mental Health Services are all mentioned.

To be fair, it did delve into being a bit of a discussion between posters at one point and they might get pulled up on that, and had a mod gotten to the thread first they would more than likely have closed the thread with a note for the OP to get the help of a professional in that field, possibly with links to the organisations mentioned, but otherwise the thread was pretty consistent in that the posters there provided information on professionals to speak to and nothing more - a far cry in my opinion at least from offering medical advice itself.

Hope this helps,
Mike

Dades

I've just read the thread in question, too, and pretty much agree with Mike.

There's a subtle difference between advising someone to take a certain legal route and discussion on what current procedures are open to people. The thread in question definitely leans toward the latter. The OP was looking for help in dealing with another family member on a personal level which is why it was in PI.

There's a chance that on 2014 Boards some of the posts might have been borderline under the "legal advice" rule, but that would have been harsh. At any rate the OP was in 2010 and can sit in the archives, afaic.

Neyite

In lots of fora, its permitted to discuss and share similar experiences, but not offer medical advice, the mods are clear where the line is, as are regular posters. If not, those regulars are very good at reporting the posts and a mod acts on them accordingly.

For instance, the Lady garden thread in TLL women discuss types of contraceptive pills, their experiences, side effects, but mods will step in if medical advice is given. In Parenting - especially the Trying to Conceive forum, medical tests, symptoms of pregnancy, and fertility procedures are all discussed. In Newborn and Toddlers, people regularly discuss the ailments of their children - is it colic or reflux, teething remedies, nappy rash remedies, or more serious issues like illnesses, developmental issues. The Pregnancy forum is stuffed to the gills of posts where women are discussing and sharing medical information. Long Term Illness the same.

Separation and Divorce offer advice, tips, opinion but legal advice is not permitted. Ditto Legal Issues. Accomodation & Property, Work and Jobs, Taxation, all have similar rules. Even Food and Drink, people can chat about food, share recipes, but a post wondering if the chicken you bought last thursday is safe to eat, or that will stray in to food safety issues will be brought to mod attention.

Thats only the fora I'm personally familiar with. Others like Motors, Dental issues, Health and Fitness etc may also have the similar wordings in their charters.

Its an advice forum. Much like the problem pages you see in all kinds of magazines and newspapers- people are familiar with this format. I happen to think that our regular contributers are much more insightful than Dear Deirdre though.

Another point thats worth making RDM_83 again, is that PI/RI thread are not searchable anymore. The one that you found on google was likely prior to that update. Current PI threads wont show up. Neither does the boards search function work in PI/RI for users either. We are mindful of privacy there, and regularly delete threads at the OP's request,

Shakespeare's Sister

Obviously because the implications of incorrect medical advice from non professionals are far more serious than subjective opinions on dealing with relationship issues (which doesn't require being formally qualified, just experience).
It's bizarre the question is even being asked...

Wibbs

Magaggie wrote: »

It's bizarre the question is even being asked...

When I was a PI mod way back in the day it was a question that came up regularly enough. When I started it was just PI, no subforums, no outside pro help available like turn2me.org. Even so there was a culture of strict adherence to the line of professional/non professional advice. The forum has evolved a lot since then, it even evolved over the few years I was involved(as noted it used to be searchable and posts would appear on Boards front page etc, things we sought to change) and it's grown into a much more polished and structured resource today.

hullaballoo

Professional advice is a legally defined term. Granted, the confines of it have evolved in line with new fields and as new positions are created but generally there is a crossover with some other regulated field.

Telling someone to kick their man/woman to the curb is not and never will be professional advice.