Would you say something?

Raminahobbin

Twice now I've seen a man in my town walking his dog with a prong collar.

The dog is a gorgeous big pure white fella, I'd hazard a guess at a Dogo Argentino but it could be an American Bulldog- I'm not great at identifying some of the bigger bull breeds.

There do not appear to be any puncture wounds around the dogs neck that I can see, but I still find it quite shocking and upsetting to see the prong collar. I've never actually seen anyone using one in the flesh.

I realise that it's none of my business, and since the dog seems to be in good condition otherwise, I'm probably just going to keep my nose out of it, but I was just wondering if anyone here would say anything to the man? I'm toying with the idea of stopping him if I see him again, asking to pet the dog (with lots of compliments, because he really is a stunning looking fella), and striking up a conversation. If the man SEEMS receptive, I might ask him about the collar and why he felt he needed it. Or would you all just recommend I try to ignore it?

VonVix

It's really tempting to say something, isn't it? I've been in similar situations before but I've always said nothing about it.

If you do feel the need to find out more information further as to why he uses it I would get talking to him about his dog first, generally speaking (what breed is it, what's it like, etc.) then maybe the second time you see him and talk to him, bring it up however way you feel is most polite. He may have the best of intentions for all you know, he may just have gotten some misguided information. And it can feel quite threatening if someone approaches you about the equipment you're using straight off the bat, if you feel like you're doing no harm.

zoe 3619

Had to google prong collar.think you have the right idea.chat to the owner,admire the dog.be friendly ,smile,and at some point say ' is that a prong collar-never seen one of them before' if he's receptive,ask him why it's used etc.keep it general,be non-confrontational.if they're legal( and I didn't see anything to suggest otherwise) not much you can do,but if you have a chat and find him to be a reasonable,caring owner,it would set your mind at rest.

tk123

Is the owner a non-national by any chance - that's the only people I've seen using them on dogs. I don't think they're doing it to be cruel tbh - just that it's accepted where they're from but frowned upon here? I saw somebody (polish) with one on a beagle in our park ages ago. Her dog was getting strangled/stabbed as it went to greet Bailey and I was shocked and too speechless to say anything - she knew well by my reaction what I thought though and was embarrassed herself. I had decided I would say something to her but didn't see her again. I've only said something once - saw a guy yanking the neck off a dog for pulling. When I told him there was harnesses etc he could try he was delighted to hear about them and thanked me.

Raminahobbin

I'm not sure if he's non-national, I have an inkling he might be Eastern European but it's hard to tell. He doesn't look particularly un-approachable, seems like a nice enough man on first impressions, so maybe you're all right and he just doesn't know any better.

I certainly don't want to be confrontational about it and would hate to come across as preachy, especially because the dog is in good condition and doesn't seem to pull enough for there to be any actual damage from the collar. I had my own dog with me this evening, which his dog seemed very interested in but didn't pull towards (obviously).

Strange thing though, as soon as the dog saw mine, he started slobbering REALLY heavily, instantly. I've never seen anything like it. Must be some sort of alternative reaction? I don't know.

I have a pretty decent idea of the route the man takes now and where he might live, so I'll just head that way to the shops and when I'm on walks and if I bump into him (without my own dog) I'll try have a bit of friendly banter with him and take it from there.

VonVix

Raminahobbin wrote: »

Strange thing though, as soon as the dog saw mine, he started slobbering REALLY heavily, instantly. I've never seen anything like it. Must be some sort of alternative reaction? I don't know.

This is what used to happen when I took one of my dogs to the vet, he has since gotten a lot better and only a bit drooly towards the end of the visit. But he gets incredibly anxious having people he does not know touch him without his consent.

<total assumption> Could be a sign of anxiety about being in the presence of your dog and it could be part of the reason why he has a prong collar in the first place. He may have gotten corrected for pulling when trying to get near a dog or showing a reaction towards a dog. </total assumption> ...but yeah, I don't know, just the first thing that came to mind.

fatmammycat

Raminahobbin wrote: »

Twice now I've seen a man in my town walking his dog with a prong collar.

The dog is a gorgeous big pure white fella, I'd hazard a guess at a Dogo Argentino but it could be an American Bulldog- I'm not great at identifying some of the bigger bull breeds.

There do not appear to be any puncture wounds around the dogs neck that I can see, but I still find it quite shocking and upsetting to see the prong collar. I've never actually seen anyone using one in the flesh.

I realise that it's none of my business, and since the dog seems to be in good condition otherwise, I'm probably just going to keep my nose out of it, but I was just wondering if anyone here would say anything to the man? I'm toying with the idea of stopping him if I see him again, asking to pet the dog (with lots of compliments, because he really is a stunning looking fella), and striking up a conversation. If the man SEEMS receptive, I might ask him about the collar and why he felt he needed it. Or would you all just recommend I try to ignore it?

Mind your own business. Prong collars are no more 'cruel' than normal buckle collars when used correctly. Frankly I'd rather owners of large dogs were in control of their dogs than letting their dogs half strangle themselves barking and lunging like loo-loas on flat collars. A prong collar is an excellent training device for strong/dog/human aggressive dogs. I've never had to use one with my own dog, but I don't assume a prong or pinch collar is not an excellent tool for some owners, and the idea that you might approach an owner and query his training technique without knowing the first thing about his dog is laughable.

Whispered

fatmammycat wrote: »

Mind your own business. Prong collars are no more 'cruel' than normal buckle collars when used correctly.

They work on the basis of causing pain. No matter what spin users try to put on it, that's a fact. If they don't work by causing discomfort or pain, how do you think they work? I wouldn't be a huge fan of walking a dog on a collar either but to say they're the same as prongs is taking it a bit far.

OP I don't think I'd say anything unless you are having a conversation with the man. People who use these types of "training aids" tend to have all manner of justifications and reasons they are not a bad thing. If he's receptive maybe you could suggest something less cruel but I wouldn't lead with it.

borderlinemeath

fatmammycat wrote: »

Mind your own business. Prong collars are no more 'cruel' than normal buckle collars when used correctly.

I really, really hate that line that's always trotted out when using punishing equipment like prong collars or electric fence collars that they're not cruel when used "correctly". It's such a cop out answer for using an unnecessarily painful piece of equipment.

DBB

fatmammycat wrote: »

Mind your own business. Prong collars are no more 'cruel' than normal buckle collars when used correctly. Frankly I'd rather owners of large dogs were in control of their dogs than letting their dogs half strangle themselves barking and lunging like loo-loas on flat collars. A prong collar is an excellent training device for strong/dog/human aggressive dogs. I've never had to use one with my own dog, but I don't assume a prong or pinch collar is not an excellent tool for some owners, and the idea that you might approach an owner and query his training technique without knowing the first thing about his dog is laughable.

Fatmammycat, I'm pretty shocked with a couple of posts you've made in recent months, it's like somebody has re-wired your train of thought on dog training, because there was a time your posts made perfect sense in terms of ethical and dog-friendly dog training.
Very disappointing indeed.

Whispered

borderlinemeath wrote: »

I really, really hate that line that's always trotted out when using punishing equipment like prong collars or electric fence collars that they're not cruel when used "correctly". It's such a cop out answer for using an unnecessarily painful piece of equipment.

I think that's the biggest point. We all cause our pets discomfort at times, as we do our kids and ourselves. Cleaning cuts, having anal glands cleaned (obv I mean for dogs here not kids or ourselves :pac:), vaccinations and some treatments can be unpleasant but necessary. There is no reason, ever to use a choke or prong collar. There is nothing that they can "fix" that couldn't be worked on using kinder methods (and methods which don't have such a big fallout).

The drooling is probably one such fallout - my bigger fella drools when stressed or worried. I'd wonder if the dog is on a prong due to pulling out to get to people or other dogs, has been hurt by the collar and now associates the approach of a new person or dog with the pain on his neck.

Raminahobbin

VonVix wrote: »

This is what used to happen when I took one of my dogs to the vet, he has since gotten a lot better and only a bit drooly towards the end of the visit. But he gets incredibly anxious having people he does not know touch him without his consent.

<total assumption> Could be a sign of anxiety about being in the presence of your dog and it could be part of the reason why he has a prong collar in the first place. He may have gotten corrected for pulling when trying to get near a dog or showing a reaction towards a dog. </total assumption> ...but yeah, I don't know, just the first thing that came to mind.

That could be it alright, I don't know- I've never had a drooler :P

Poor dog, I assume if this is the case then the potential for pain if they react to another dog would only compound the problem.

VonVix

Raminahobbin wrote: »

That could be it alright, I don't know- I've never had a drooler :P

Poor dog, I assume if this is the case then the potential for pain if they react to another dog would only compound the problem.

The table would be soaked by my boy drooling at the sight of the vet coming near him, as if he was expecting the worst before it happened. Over the last few vet visits I have been holding him close to me and speaking softly to him, which I never did when he was having his first drooly episodes. He has improved so much, that the last time there was only 3 (I counted!) droplets on the table.

Just from my experience I would expect there to be an element of anxiety coming from his dog, as if he's expecting something bad to happen at the sight of the trigger. aka, your dog.

thebullkf

without knowing the breed, background or experience of either dog or owner this is all useless speculation.

Prongs work on certain dogs especially with experienced users/owners.

I prefer reward instead of correction myself, but they can be useful, particularly against extremely strong or unpredictable dogs.

The drooling sounds like conditioning, is it an ex fight dog ? eg a rescue? Was dog abused and correction is needed initially?

Pavlovs dog sprang to mind when you mentioned drooling:(

boomerang

I don't even know where people get them. I've never seen them in pet shops here, thankfully.

DBB

thebullkf wrote: »

Prongs work on certain dogs especially with experienced users/owners.

I prefer reward instead of correction myself, but they can be useful, particularly against extremely strong or unpredictable dogs.

There is a common misinformation that gear like prong collars, choke chains, electric collars etc etc don't work, and I'm forever trying to fight that myth here.
These pieces of gear do, in many cases, work. This should not be disputed.
In cases where they don't work, it's because the dog has shut down and is learning nothing at all.
The question, in this day and age, is not "does it work?", but "does it do harm?"
The answer in the case of choke chains, prong collars, electric collars etc is that yes, they do harm, even in experienced hands. They cannot work unless they cause an aversive experience for the dog.
An oft-quoted Swedish study found that 91% of dogs that pull on the lead, or who experienced leash corrections, died with damage to their neck or throat area. Dogs who wear choke chains or prong collars were over-represented in this appalling figure.
In this day and age, there is no excuse for using aversive gear on dogs, when very effective non-painful gear is available.

To say that prong collars and the like can be extremely effective against "extremely strong or unpredictable dogs" is not untrue, but I've been working with strong, unpredictable dogs for years and years, as have many of my peers and colleagues.... yet we always seem to manage perfectly well without having to resort to the aversive gear... why is that? Where does that leave the supporters of prong collars and choke chains?
It can only lead a person to one conclusion, which is that supporters of such gear either don't really "get it" in terms of using learning theory to address behavioural problems.
Either that, or they're okay with causing their dog unnecessary discomfort.

To address the OP, why not talk to him about it? He'll either disagree with you, or he'll explore alternatives... the latter more likely to happen if you keep it light and non-confrontational. Some less-than-reputable dog trainers in Ireland sell prong collars to their clients, but for the most part, most users of them seem to be eastern european, and it's simply a cultural thing with them, in the same way that choke chains were over-represented in Ireland in the 70s and 80s. As a general rule, they looooove their dogs, and many of them who I have suggested more ethical alternatives to have been delighted to learn that such effective alternatives exist!

tk123

OP you might check with Pet Stop tomorrow - at one stage they were offering a discount off collars/harnesses if you 'traded in' stuff like prong collars etc - that was the angle I was going to use on the girl I saw that day and suggest a halti harness.

For the record I have a choke/chain collar for Lucy - I needed a slip/loose collar to hold her ID when she had hotspots on her neck and it was all I could find on a BH weekend - I felt ashamed for buying it even though I'd no intention of ever attaching a lead to it!!! (She was bursting out of her harness at the time so leaving it on her in the house wasn't really an option).

fatmammycat

DBB wrote: »

Fatmammycat, I'm pretty shocked with a couple of posts you've made in recent months, it's like somebody has re-wired your train of thought on dog training, because there was a time your posts made perfect sense in terms of ethical and dog-friendly dog training.
Very disappointing indeed.

I'm not a chid DBB, there's there no need for disappointment because one person's view differs from yours. The more I read, the more trainers I talk to, the more dog owners in general I talk to the less I believe in one form or training. I think prongs and e-collars have a place in training, I think a lot of really really good dog trainers who care a great deal for their dogs and who use these tools have excellently trained happy dogs. Yes a prong causes discomfort, of course that's how it works. Moment of discomfort, dog stops puling, no discomfort, light bulb moment in dog's brain, hey, if I don't pull this is comfortable. This causes less damage to dogs than constantly heaving and choking against a buckle collar.
I'm not trying to change anybody's mind- people need to learn and read for themselves with an open mind ( I used to be totally against prong collars until I learned a lot more about them, I use a harness on my dog, but he's not a puller or dog aggressive) - and I'm all for positive training, in fact I'm a big believer in it. What I also believe is that a dog should understand consequences to certain behaviours. I'm not talking about hitting or hurting a dog either, but yes, let a dog feel a little discomfort if he's doing something he shouldn't be doing, and then let that discomfort cease the MOMENT the dog stops doing what he shouldn't be doing. Give and take. Dogs are not idiots, they understand boundaries and can operate perfectly happily within them once they know what that boundary is. Regarding damage by prongs, I believe a dog is less likely to damage himself or hurt himself when trained properly with a prong collar, and this is beginning to become a reality for many people, all of who also love their dogs.
http://www.labadoption.org/info/file?file=17128.pdf

aaakev

Id be of the same opinion on e collars and prong collars. I trained my pointer very successfully with a remote control e collar to take commands at a distance when he was off lead. It only took a few shocks to correct him then the beep before the shock was all that was needed.

I tried it on myself before the dog and it wasn't bad, like an electric fence

ShaShaBear

fatmammycat wrote: »

I believe a dog is less likely to damage himself or hurt himself when trained properly with a prong collar
http://www.labadoption.org/info/file?file=17128.pdf

And even less likely if trained correctly without one

Shadow is very strong, extremely dog aggressive and lorry/truck reactive when walking. He pulls a lot too. I would never, EVER dream of using a prong collar or choke chain to try and "correct" this behaviour. He does it because he is afraid. What would the sense be in giving him a damned good reason to be afraid of it?
He's not supposed to try and strangle himself with TV cables from climbing under the stand when he hears fireworks, so should I give him a light smack every time he does it so the discomfort corrects it?
(Side note, good luck with that - do you like all your fingers? :pac: )

I find it utterly preposterous and next to impossible to believe that "many" people are coming to the conclusion that dog experts have been talking out their holes with positive training methods all this time and are resorting to cruelty, punishment and torture to attempt to train their pets again. Keeping in mind that a LARGE percentage of dog owners do NOT know how to use these devices correctly (if there is even such a thing), and any behaviourist worth their salt won't even entertain showing someone how to use them - makes it pretty moot to say they work if used correctly.

fatmammycat

ShaShaBear wrote: »

And even less likely if trained correctly without one

Shadow is very strong, extremely dog aggressive and lorry/truck reactive when walking. He pulls a lot too. I would never, EVER dream of using a prong collar or choke chain to try and "correct" this behaviour. He does it because he is afraid. What would the sense be in giving him a damned good reason to be afraid of it?
He's not supposed to try and strangle himself with TV cables from climbing under the stand when he hears fireworks, so should I give him a light smack every time he does it so the discomfort corrects it?
(Side note, good luck with that - do you like all your fingers? :pac: )

I find it utterly preposterous and next to impossible to believe that "many" people are coming to the conclusion that dog experts have been talking out their holes with positive training methods all this time and are resorting to cruelty, punishment and torture to attempt to train their pets again. Keeping in mind that a LARGE percentage of dog owners do NOT know how to use these devices correctly (if there is even such a thing), and any behaviourist worth their salt won't even entertain showing someone how to use them - makes it pretty moot to say they work if used correctly.

I'm not trying to change your mind SSB, do what you want with your own dog, what ever works for you. Also, no one is suggesting dog owners don't use positive training, just that positive training is not the be all and end all of ALL training.

muddypaws

fatmammycat wrote: »

I'm not trying to change your mind SSB, do what you want with your own dog, what ever works for you. Also, no one is suggesting dog owners don't use positive training, just that positive training is not the be all and end all of ALL training.

You see that's the thing, in my mind, and for a lot of other people, and indeed, based on scientific evidence it is.

fatmammycat

muddypaws wrote: »

You see that's the thing, in my mind, and for a lot of other people, and indeed, based on scientific evidence it is.

Perhaps so, but there's plenty of evidence that corrections have their place in dog training, then you reinforce the positive behaviour. It's easy enough to train any dog to do what you want, it's training them OUT of doing things that causes confusion. BAT and LAT are tremendous forms of training for many dogs, but -again- I don't discount other methods either. I think it was Tyler Muto who recently wrote a piece that some purely positive trainers would rather see dogs put to sleep than 'suffer' some adverse training. It's that kind of nonsense that completely undermines +p training.
Most people here have never used a prong collar and never will, so have almost no experience of them or concept of how useful they are. As I said, I was dead against them too for the longest time, until I read/spoke and most importantly, listened to people who had WAY more experience with dogs than I will ever have. I don't use one myself as I have no need for one, but it gets really bloody tedious when every single time they're mentioned people immediately go with 'Oh my god, how inhumane' and the conversation is shut down.

Mark Tapley

OP if you use a harness on your own dog maybe you could start a conversation about how great they are. I have a spare harness I think I would offer it to them to see how well they work.
I have never seen anyone use a prong collar and had a look at google images . They look like medieval instruments of torture.

snoman

"Strange thing though, as soon as the dog saw mine, he started slobbering REALLY heavily, instantly. I've never seen anything like it. Must be some sort of alternative reaction? I don't know."

My mastiff does this in anticipation of food. Many's the day I've almost skated across the kitchen with her food bowl in my hand!! Also in the park there's a lady who doles out treats.... Drip, drip drool..

Rochelle

I had to google prong collar as I never heard of them...wow...it's exactly what I'm looking for, my lad has the arm pulled off me when I take him walking.

Just ordered one there now, thanks OP.

peasant

fatmammycat wrote: »

I Dogs are not idiots, they understand boundaries and can operate perfectly happily within them once they know what that boundary is.

Dogs also know perfectly well when they are and aren't wearing a prong collar ...which makes the thing either useless or a permanent installation on the poor dog's neck.

muddypaws

fatmammycat wrote: »

Perhaps so, but there's plenty of evidence that corrections have their place in dog training, then you reinforce the positive behaviour. It's easy enough to train any dog to do what you want, it's training them OUT of doing things that causes confusion. BAT and LAT are tremendous forms of training for many dogs, but -again- I don't discount other methods either. I think it was Tyler Muto who recently wrote a piece that some purely positive trainers would rather see dogs put to sleep than 'suffer' some adverse training. It's that kind of nonsense that completely undermines +p training.
Most people here have never used a prong collar and never will, so have almost no experience of them or concept of how useful they are. As I said, I was dead against them too for the longest time, until I read/spoke and most importantly, listened to people who had WAY more experience with dogs than I will ever have. I don't use one myself as I have no need for one, but it gets really bloody tedious when every single time they're mentioned people immediately go with 'Oh my god, how inhumane' and the conversation is shut down.

I'm always open to debate, so could you please give me some links to the evidence, either on here, or by pm.

I have never used a prong collar, and never will, because I do understand how they work, and personally, I refuse to get a dog to do something I want by causing them pain, or, as proponents would prefer 'discomfort'. I have plenty of experience with dogs, including rehabilitating dogs that were due to be pts for aggression etc. I don't, and won't use aversive tools. Experience doesn't always equate to education and understanding. I talk to a lot of professional dog handlers, here and abroad, and so many services, such as police etc are moving away from aversive training and instead are using positive reinforcement.

I had never heard of Tyler Muto, so googled him. Wow, I certainly won't be taking any advice or opinions he gives as something worth listening to. Poor, stressed out dog. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEnoPXgWG0U

andreac

Rochelle wrote: »

I had to google prong collar as I never heard of them...wow...it's exactly what I'm looking for, my lad has the arm pulled off me when I take him walking.

Just ordered one there now, thanks OP.

Have you tried a more humane type of collar, like Dogmatic? Have you done any training with your dog at all to teach him not to pull?

Im guessing not, ah sure throw a prong collar on him and hurt him, he def wont pull then...:rolleyes:

ShaShaBear

andreac wrote: »

Have you tried a more humane type of collar, like Dogmatic? Have you done any training with your dog at all to teach him not to pull?

Im guessing not, ah sure throw a prong collar on him and hurt him, he def wont pull then...:rolleyes:

And just in case you couldn't detect the well-earned sarcasm, your dog will still pull with a prong collar on
You have to teach the dog what you want it to do, just because it hurts when he pulls doesn't mean he will stop, it just means he is likely to associate pain with whatever he is pulling to get at, which will probably teach him to pull harder to teach whatever that is a lesson for hurting him on his walk :rolleyes:

Good job making your dog worse!

fatmammycat

muddypaws wrote: »

I'm always open to debate, so could you please give me some links to the evidence, either on here, or by pm.

I have never used a prong collar, and never will, because I do understand how they work, and personally, I refuse to get a dog to do something I want by causing them pain, or, as proponents would prefer 'discomfort'. I have plenty of experience with dogs, including rehabilitating dogs that were due to be pts for aggression etc. I don't, and won't use aversive tools. Experience doesn't always equate to education and understanding. I talk to a lot of professional dog handlers, here and abroad, and so many services, such as police etc are moving away from aversive training and instead are using positive reinforcement.

I had never heard of Tyler Muto, so googled him. Wow, I certainly won't be taking any advice or opinions he gives as something worth listening to. Poor, stressed out dog. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEnoPXgWG0U

As I said, no one is TELLING you what way to train your dog. Train as you see fit, but be aware that other people train differently and it doesn't make them wrong. As for sneering at Muto, oh well, he's not for everyone, but I like his balanced approach and he has helped a lot of dogs who were heading for death's door.