Would you say something?

tk123

Ashbx wrote: »

I dont know a particular shop because I have no intention of buying one so never looked into it but one small search on google and its pretty apparent you can get them pretty damn easy!!

My point being that they're not afaik as I know sold in pet shops because they're socially unacceptable. Certainly not any pet shops I know of in Dublin or on any of the websites I used.

Ashbx

jimf wrote: »

I have springers who are feckers for pulling if allowed to develop the habit
I find a very simple solution is to get somebody to walk in front of them and take their ground thus forcing them to walk beside me it requires no intervention from me just a lead long enough to allow a little slack

its probably one of the easiest bad habits to allow a dog develop

This sounds like a good idea. Just curious, does it fix the problem once the person is no longer walking infront of them? Or do they just go back to pulling again? I have found many solutions which unfortunately have only been temporary!

jimf

yes it has worked very well for me but it was always at the lead training stage so no bad habit had developed

I cant honestly say how it would work on a dog with an established pulling problem as ive never tried it

maybe try it yourself and see does it help

its one of my pet hates to see people chucking at a dog to try and control it

Ashbx

tk123 wrote: »

My point being that they're not afaik as I know sold in pet shops because they're socially unacceptable. Certainly not any pet shops I know of in Dublin or on any of the websites I used.

I must rub people up the wrong way on this website for some reason!

My opinion about prong collars is EXACTLY the same as yours and DBB's so I really don't understand what the problem is! Yes, I do think they are cruel and would never personally use them but the OP does not know this dog walkers situation so my advice is no, say nothing to the man and leave him be!

Ashbx

jimf wrote: »

yes it has worked very well for me but it was always at the lead training stage so no bad habit had developed

I cant honestly say how it would work on a dog with an established pulling problem as ive never tried it

maybe try it yourself and see does it help

its one of my pet hates to see people chucking at a dog to try and control it

I will indeed. At the moment, I use a combination of a halti, a mikki harness and a backpack depending on where I am bringing her. None of them stop her from pulling but all of them ease the effects on my poor arm!

borderlinemeath

Ashbx wrote: »

When I worked in the petshop (where I still shop by the way), we were always told to ask the potential customer questions about the animal they were buying. So I think you are now being the naïve one....not all petshops are the same.

Are there ethically run, not for profit pet shops? Because I don't know of any. I worked in retail for nearly 2 decades, for the last 3 in the nursery business which is a minefield when it comes to products that are considered controversial and divide opinion with customers and peer review groups - but that's a whole other forum. At the end of the day, any staff member worth their salt can ask questions but if the product is on the shelf to be sold, they would be disciplined or even fired for refusing to sell it or even discouraging the sale based on their own opinion.

My "assumptions" do not come from "any business that is driven by profit". For years, I witnessed a very close friend using a prong collar....and still does! I don't agree with it and I would never use one on any of my dogs but it works whether you agree with the method or not! And they have their valid reasons why they use them!

Nobody on this thread has said that they don't work. It's how they work that is the problem. Would you be as happy to stand by and say nothing if your friend had a child and pinched the child every time they ran forward? Is to inflict pain and discomfort for the wrong response considered a valid reason?

I am not hear to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of prong collars. That's a whole other thread! The OP asked should they say something. And personally, I don't think she should because the OP does not know this owners situation and its only fair if she keeps her opinions to herself.

I deal with lots of dogs that are pullers. I have had a golden retriever pull so hard that he broke my walking belt and a lab pull and jump so forcefully he broke the buckle on a lead. With both dogs I then started to use a forward attach harness on them and the difference was night and day. I always give my opinions to dog owners that are finding their dog pulling a problem, and the solutions that I offer always work. There is absolutely no harm in approaching the person with the intention of starting a friendly conversation and recommending something different than the painful equipment they are using.

DBB

Ashbx wrote: »

I must rub people up the wrong way on this website for some reason!

It's nothing personal, but if you come out and say "prong collars aren't cruel", then in the next breath say you wouldn't use them yourself, it just comes across like you're contradicting yourself.
Something similar happened on a training thread lately.
If they're not cruel, as you have stated, and if they work, as you have stated, sure stick one on your own dog. If you're not prepared to do that because you think they're cruel or would hurt her, then why post saying they're not cruel?
If anyone, not just you, posts stuff which promotes or misinforms about the use of gear that much greater minds than mine have deemed unethical, via research and evidence, then I'll state my case. But it's not because I think you're rubbing me up the wrong way :-)

Whispered

Ashbx what training have you tried? I ask because for years we tried a number of methods, while using a front connection harness. He was getting there and with the management tool wasn't able to pull me off my feet anymore but he was still always at the end of the lead. Then an absolutely excellent trainer tweaked my technique and within a week he was miles better. I've thought LLW pretty successfully to other dogs, but it was so entrenched in my boy it took an outsider to look at what was happening to correct it.

He's still hard work, like we are still constantly training while walking but I was shocked at the difference a little change here and there made.

Whispered

I'm posting this here as I guess it is relevant to the discussion above on the repercussions of harsher corrections. I know it is different from the use of prong collars but goes a little way to show why I think going down the route of "correcting" behaviour in an aversive way is not a good thing.

Phoe is very ill at the moment. He is in the vets on a drip and we are very concerned. Last night he vomited grass, no cause for concern there. Then overnight he vomited again and pooed on the floor, again not initially too alarming. When I opened the door, he ran up the back and hid under a bush. He hadn't come back by the time I cleaned the floor.

Phoe is a lazy toileter and if the weather is bad enough he will have a pee in the house. Had I gone down the road of correcting that, I may well have assumed that he was feeling worried about the poo and was hiding to avoid being told off. As it is, he has never had fear of approaching me, no matter what the situation. So I knew within a few mins I had to call into work and get him to the vet ASAP. I'm not saying that people who correct their dogs would have missed it, but I would have. The way the house is set up when I work, he didn't have to come in before I left. Two vomits wouldn't usually concern me. I absolutely would have assumed he was trying to stay away from me because he was worried.

I'm sure there are loads of other scenarios where the outcome would be different if I used harsh corrections, but I living this one at the moment and it just crossed my mind, so I thought I'd mention it.

Ashbx

Whispered wrote: »

I'm posting this here as I guess it is relevant to the discussion above on the repercussions of harsher corrections. I know it is different from the use of prong collars but goes a little way to show why I think going down the route of "correcting" behaviour in an aversive way is not a good thing.

Phoe is very ill at the moment. He is in the vets on a drip and we are very concerned. Last night he vomited grass, no cause for concern there. Then overnight he vomited again and pooed on the floor, again not initially too alarming. When I opened the door, he ran up the back and hid under a bush. He hadn't come back by the time I cleaned the floor.

Phoe is a lazy toileter and if the weather is bad enough he will have a pee in the house. Had I gone down the road of correcting that, I may well have assumed that he was feeling worried about the poo and was hiding to avoid being told off. As it is, he has never had fear of approaching me, no matter what the situation. So I knew within a few mins I had to call into work and get him to the vet ASAP. I'm not saying that people who correct their dogs would have missed it, but I would have. The way the house is set up when I work, he didn't have to come in before I left. Two vomits wouldn't usually concern me. I absolutely would have assumed he was trying to stay away from me because he was worried.

I'm sure there are loads of other scenarios where the outcome would be different if I used harsh corrections, but I living this one at the moment and it just crossed my mind, so I thought I'd mention it.

Hi Whispered, sorry to here about Phoe. I do hope he gets better soon! (Is this short for Phoebe by any chance? I have a border collie called Phoebe too!).

With regards to your post yesterday (which I didn't see - I apologise!), I first used a standard head collar but it kept slipping of Chips nose (she's a border terrier so has a very small snout). So I moved to a normal harness, and as people said above, it just made her pull harder. So I moved to a halti harness, still didn't help. At this point I joined a training class and tried their techniques (guiding her with food, stopping when she pulls, crossing the road when she pulls, getting her calm before leaving the house) but none of these worked. So I purchased a backpack. The backpack is great and I do recommend it to anyone who's dogs pull. Saying that, I still use a harness while using the backpack but she is a lot more focused on her walks and twice as tired when we come back! I got a halti head collar then which I do think is excellent but my dog lunges and barks like mad whenever a motorbike passes, when she is wearing her halti, she spins around, gets caught up and I would be worried she would do some serious damage to her neck, so don't use this one all the time. I then got one on one trainer to the house, and that didn't work. So the last thing I got is a Mikki don't pull harness and to be honest, its the best I found so far. It tightens on her front legs when she pulls so it pulls her front legs up (if that makes any sense) and stops her pulling. She definitely still pulls but it just doesn't hurt/frustrate me as much. After reading this post, I have looked up getting a harness that closes at the front as a few people seem to have suggested it. We'll see how we get on with that one....fingers crossed its the one!!

I tend not to use corrections when training my dogs anyway. When correcting while training, you need to be extremely quick in order for your dog to understand exactly what you want from them. You need to catch them in the act and correct immediately. Most of Chips bad behaviour (which is very rare thankfully) happens when im not in the house! For walking, if I correct Chip by a sharp tug on the leash, she doesn't stop pulling and I just end up getting frustrated so I have steered clear of that altogether!

Best of luck to Phoe!

Whispered

Ashbx wrote: »

Hi Whispered, sorry to here about Phoe. I do hope he gets better soon! (Is this short for Phoebe by any chance? I have a border collie called Phoebe too!).

It's short for Phoenix. It's a girly name for a little boy isn't it but he's comfortable with his sexuality and doesn't feel the need for a butch name to assert his masculinity :pac:

Ashbx wrote: »

At this point I joined a training class and tried their techniques (guiding her with food, stopping when she pulls, crossing the road when she pulls, getting her calm before leaving the house) but none of these worked.

This is one of the techniques I used to try, but if your chip is anything like my harley it ends up being a waiting game? As in dog at the end of the lead and you there waiting for them to back up. The few changes the trainer made to this for us were: When the dog pulls say "uh-oh" or "whoops" or other sort of marker and start walking backwards. When the dog catches up with your backwards walk mark the good behaviour and continue on your walk. There were other bits like talking to your dog and rewarding eye contact and nice walking with treats but the main thing that helped us was the walking backwards. The constant motion kept harleys attention much better than just stopping dead and the "uh-oh" became a cue for Harley to slow down or he'd be going backwards. Now if he pulls we don't have to step back, just say the word and he backs up to us. It's a fricken miracle because he was TERRIBLE!

I agree with you re the head collars, I'd worry about neck injuries too.

How did you get chip to enjoy the harness? I got one for Harley but he doesn't really like it.

Ashbx

Whispered wrote: »

It's short for Phoenix. It's a girly name for a little boy isn't it but he's comfortable with his sexuality and doesn't feel the need for a butch name to assert his masculinity :pac:



This is one of the techniques I used to try, but if your chip is anything like my harley it ends up being a waiting game? As in dog at the end of the lead and you there waiting for them to back up. The few changes the trainer made to this for us were: When the dog pulls say "uh-oh" or "whoops" or other sort of marker and start walking backwards. When the dog catches up with your backwards walk mark the good behaviour and continue on your walk. There were other bits like talking to your dog and rewarding eye contact and nice walking with treats but the main thing that helped us was the walking backwards. The constant motion kept harleys attention much better than just stopping dead and the "uh-oh" became a cue for Harley to slow down or he'd be going backwards. Now if he pulls we don't have to step back, just say the word and he backs up to us. It's a fricken miracle because he was TERRIBLE!

I agree with you re the head collars, I'd worry about neck injuries too.

How did you get chip to enjoy the harness? I got one for Harley but he doesn't really like it.

So funny you say that because Chip is in fact a girl, and I think its a very manly name for a bitch!

I must try that technique you did! It sounds like it worked for you anyway and she definitely knows what "ah ah" means! With regard to getting her eye contact and that, it may just be a lazy excuse on my part but I find it hard doing these sort of techniques because she is so small. One trainer told me to walk with my hand infront of their head so if they go past my head, I stop and push them back so they know that they are not to pass my hand. This works for my collie no problem, but what can you do when you have a dog that goes as far as your shins....am I supposed to walk on my hunkers!? ha ha So I will definitely try the verbal no's and see if it makes a difference. Can I just clarify, do you mean that I take steps so that I am walking backwards (as opposed to turning and walking the opposite way)?

Unfortunately, I never had a problem with her wearing her harness. She's excited just leaving the house I could put a cone on her head and she wouldn't care! I did have some problems with the head collars though. She was constantly tryin to take it off so the first few times she wore it, I gave her sausages as a treat whenever she left it alone. She was so focused on tryin to get my attention for the next piece of sausage that she forgot she had the head collar on!

Whispered

Ashbx wrote: »

I must try that technique you did! It sounds like it worked for you anyway and she definitely knows what "ah ah" means! With regard to getting her eye contact and that, it may just be a lazy excuse on my part but I find it hard doing these sort of techniques because she is so small. One trainer told me to walk with my hand infront of their head so if they go past my head, I stop and push them back so they know that they are not to pass my hand. This works for my collie no problem, but what can you do when you have a dog that goes as far as your shins....am I supposed to walk on my hunkers!? ha ha So I will definitely try the verbal no's and see if it makes a difference. Can I just clarify, do you mean that I take steps so that I am walking backwards (as opposed to turning and walking the opposite way)?

The "uh-oh" the way I use it is less of a verbal correction and more of a marker, which I know sounds ridiculous - like what's the difference right? But I prefer to keep my tone light, it encourages eye contact too I find (along with the happy chatting). And if I'm fully honest, it stops frustration building in me, as I was saying it every few seconds at first. By making an effort to keep my tone light, it meant I couldn't get too annoyed.

Walk backwards rather than turn around. I'm not fully sure why this worked better for us than turning but it did. I'd imagine it has to do with focusing. You're not going too far, just enough for the dog to begin to walk towards you, say 4ft or so. I was hesitant at first to do anything that meant I was increasing the pressure on the lead but as they're on a harness I knew I wasn't doing any harm. I got a lovely video of my husband walking the two boys on perfectly loose leads with nice check-ins. I'm sure, since you have a chronic puller too - you can imagine how delighted I was. We've to still work on Harley every time we go out but the improvement is huge!

It took a new pair of eyes, and a very well experienced and respected trainer, to see what method works best for my particular dog and his owners particular training abilities.

EDIT: I love the name chip for a girl, I think it sounds sassy