Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread IV

phog

esterhayes wrote: »

apart from when competition prevents a homegrown players from developing by playing games.

again it's a good signing for Munster, it's not a good signing for Dave Foley.

Yes, I mean he only had to worry about POC last year. No problem for him them. Why now?

Cookiemunster

total former wrote: »

It's not written anywhere, it just makes his job a lot harder, that's all anyone has said. I'm not sure what the objection is.

He's a professional sportsman. If he's good enough he'll be in the team ahead of Ryan or Chisholm. I don't see how this is bad for him, but not for Ryan.

phog

phog wrote: »

Yes, I mean he only had to worry about POC last year. No problem for him them. Why now?

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/first_team_squad.php?player=5023&includeref=dynamic

3 into 2 starting berths does not go evenly.

phog

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/first_team_squad.php?player=5023&includeref=dynamic

3 into 2 starting berths does not go evenly.

It never did. Not last year not next year.

Why wasn't there this discussion last season when we had Paulie & Ryan and a younger DOC?

thomond2006

phog wrote: »

But why is this supposed to be bad news for Foley and only Foley?

Again, he's in exactly the same situation as he was this time last year. I don't recall anyone stating how bad a situation it was for him back then.

Munster make a signing and someone wants to find a negative, somewhere, anywhere.

It's not about finding a negative. It's about discussing all the implications. I don't agree that a signing can only be positive for everyone. It's as 'bad' for Foley as it is for Ryan, I didn't think I needed to spell that out tbf.

esterhayes

phog wrote: »

It never did. Not last year not next year.

Why wasn't there this discussion last season when we had Paulie & Ryan and a younger DOC?

seriously? when POC left for Toulon, it meant Foley and Ryan were very likely to be starters, now with Chisolm that is reduced therefore it's bad news for both of them.

Cookiemunster

thomond2006 wrote: »

It's not about finding a negative. It's about discussing all the implications. I don't agree that a signing can only be positive for everyone. It's as 'bad' for Foley as it is for Ryan, I didn't think I needed to spell that out tbf.

Now if that was actually what TF had said originally, then there would have been no argument.

phog

phog wrote: »

It never did. Not last year not next year.

Why wasn't there this discussion last season when we had Paulie & Ryan and a younger DOC?

Well Ryan was injured, and had been long term, and DOC had just finished a season where he'd benched for most if not all of it (behind Foley). And POC was an insta-starter so Foley was vying for a spot with an injured player and a player who he'd been ahead of for the entire season.

The situation is totally different now, as Munster look to have more quality in the row with 3 players all vying for 2 spots without a huge amount between any of them.

esterhayes

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Now if that was actually what TF had said originally, then there would have been no argument.

Foley is more likely to lose out than Ryan, but this signing is bad news for all the locks at munster. Generally a signing at your position isn't a positive for a professional player especially if signing has more experience and is signed to replace a former starter.

case885

esterhayes wrote:

he has worked with a lot of experienced locks, what left is there to learn?

esterhayes wrote:

He needs gametime and a lot of it, if he is 3rd choice then it's not a good thing for Irish rugby or Dave Foley.

How do you know he'll be 3rd choice?

total former

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Now if that was actually what TF had said originally, then there would have been no argument.

I think it's worse news for Foley because Ryan is an established starter for Munster (when everyone was fit) and is a candidate for World Cup selection with the national team. Foley is neither of these things so is it not logical to assume that he's more likely to lose out?

But yeah, Ryan could well be the one missing out. Or Chisholm might not pan out and he could end up on the bench. These are less likely though.

esterhayes

case885 wrote: »

How do you know he'll be 3rd choice?

it's far more likely now than it was pre signing.

did Munster sign Chisolm to sit on the bench? if so not a great way of using limited NIQ slots is it ?

Fairest assumption to make is that all 3 will get considerable gametime tbh

total former

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Fairest assumption to make is that all 3 will get considerable gametime tbh

They will.

But only two can start the big matches that matter most.

thomond2006

total former wrote: »

I think it's worse news for Foley because Ryan is an established starter for Munster (when everyone was fit) and is a candidate for World Cup selection with the national team. Foley is neither of these things so is it not logical to assume that he's more likely to lose out?

But yeah, Ryan could well be the one missing out. Or Chisholm might not pan out and he could end up on the bench. These are less likely though.

Foley isn't a candidate because of injury. Given he played in the Autumn it's fair to say he would have been a candidate.

phog

thomond2006 wrote: »

It's not about finding a negative. It's about discussing all the implications. I don't agree that a signing can only be positive for everyone. It's as 'bad' for Foley as it is for Ryan, I didn't think I needed to spell that out tbf.

esterhayes wrote: »

seriously? when POC left for Toulon, it meant Foley and Ryan were very likely to be starters, now with Chisolm that is reduced therefore it's bad news for both of them.

So this bad news is spreading. Now it's bad news for Ryan and Foley. I hope they can cope with it.

Should someone ask Billy Holland how he feels about it too?

Deleted User wrote: »

Well Ryan was injured, and had been long term, and DOC had just finished a season where he'd benched for most if not all of it (behind Foley). And POC was an insta-starter so Foley was vying for a spot with an injured player and a player who he'd been ahead of for the entire season.

The situation is totally different now, as Munster look to have more quality in the row with 3 players all vying for 2 spots without a huge amount between any of them.

Rotation

thomond2006

phog wrote: »

So this bad news is spreading. Now it's bad news for Ryan and Foley. I hope they can cope with it.

Should someone ask Billy Holland how he feels about it too?

What's the point of sarcastic replies? Nobody else is acting like this.

I don't see Billy Holland as a candidate to be a starter in the same sense as Ryan, Foley and Chisholm. Aside from away to Racing in 2012 I don't believe Holland has ever started a European game. Chisholm pushes at least some players down the pecking order, does that need to be said?

esterhayes

phog wrote: »

So this bad news is spreading. Now it's bad news for Ryan and Foley. I hope they can cope with it.

Should someone ask Billy Holland how he feels about it too?

A signing at your position isn't a positive for a professional player especially if signing has more experience and is signed to replace a former starter.

I'm sure all the second rows at Munster were jumping with joy at this news

case885

esterhayes wrote:

did Munster sign Chisolm to sit on the bench? if so not a great way of using limited NIQ slots is it ?

So just because he's a new signing he has to start? That's not how it works, the 2 best performing locks will start and you've no evidence to say Chisholm will be one of them.

total former

phog wrote: »

So this bad news is spreading. Now it's bad news for Ryan and Foley. I hope they can cope with it.

Should someone ask Billy Holland how he feels about it too?

Billy Holland has never had any expectation of being an international.

phog

phog wrote: »

So this bad news is spreading. Now it's bad news for Ryan and Foley. I hope they can cope with it.

Should someone ask Billy Holland how he feels about it too?

I imagine he's not best pleased as his season will mostly be spent with the A team unless there's an injury to any of the other three. Are you going to pretend that this is good news for him?

phog wrote: »

Rotation

Do you think Foley or Ryan will be thinking "ah it's grand, just a bit of rotation" when they're benching for European games?

I'm more than happy to suggest that it's incredibly important for Munster to have at least 3 locks capable of playing Euro games, but it's quite naive to think that it's good news on a personal level for them that Munster have got this stock.

phog

thomond2006 wrote: »

What's the point of sarcastic replies? Nobody else is acting like this.

I don't see Billy Holland as a candidate to be a starter in the same sense as Ryan, Foley and Chisholm. Chisholm pushes at least some players down the pecking order, does that need to be said?

If Chisholm pushes Ryan or Foley onto the bench then the guy who was on the bench (Holland) gets knocked out of the 23

thomond2006

phog wrote: »

If Chisholm pushes Ryan or Foley onto the bench then the guy who was on the bench (Holland) gets knocked out of the 23

I know?

esterhayes

case885 wrote: »

So just because he's a new signing he has to start? That's not how it works, the 2 best performing locks will start and you've no evidence to say Chisholm will be one of them.

more experienced, more proven and bigger than Foley, signed to replace POC.

yeah nothing to suggest Munster plan on him being a starter.

Poor allocation or limited resources both money and NQ slots if he is sitting on the bench.

esterhayes

Deleted User wrote: »

I imagine he's not best pleased as his season will mostly be spent with the A team unless there's an injury to any of the other three. Are you going to pretend that this is good news for him?



Do you think Foley or Ryan will be thinking "ah it's grand, just a bit of rotation" when they're benching for European games?

I'm more than happy to suggest that it's incredibly important for Munster to have at least 3 locks capable of playing Euro games, but it's quite naive to think that it's good news on a personal level for them that Munster have got this stock.

some people can't read or something, it's a good signing for Munster but not good news for any current locks at Munster.

alias no.9

I've never seen such misery being dragged out of a good news story. When Foley is on the pitch in big games, and he will be on the pitch in big games, his second row partner will be more likely to be operating at a consistently high level. This makes his job easier as he can concentrate more on his own game and less on covering his partner.

él statutorio

I don't see why Foley would lose out. Given Ryans recent injury record I reckon we'll see a lot of Foley and Chisholm in the same team this year.

Wang King

We need Chisolm as Ryan, Holland and Foley will all be at the world cup!

phog

Was there the same concern expressed for Toner/McCarthy when Kane Douglas was announced as having signed for Leinster as there is for Foley and now to a lesser degree Ryan with Chisholm coming to Munster?

Quin_Dub

esterhayes wrote: »

it's far more likely now than it was pre signing.

did Munster sign Chisolm to sit on the bench? if so not a great way of using limited NIQ slots is it ?

Leinster didn't sign Douglas to sit on the Bench either....but...

I think Chisholm is a far better player than Douglas though...

Great signing for Munster I think...

With POC gone from both Ireland and Munster , either Foley or Ryan could be unavailable to Munster for large parts of the season (and have the player welfare limits applied) - So having someone of that Quality available week in week out will be of huge value...

Fireball07

It's a great signing, as good a replacement for POC as we could have hoped for.

phog

phog wrote: »

Was there the same concern expressed for Toner/McCarthy when Kane Douglas was announced as having signed for Leinster as there is for Foley and now to a lesser degree Ryan with Chisholm coming to Munster?

whatabout this or whatabout that or whatabout what?

Are people not allowed raise rational points? Everyone, and I mean everyone, has said that this is a good signing for Munster.

By being so ultra-defensive, you have asked those who have (imo) logically pointed out of the comparatively small 'downside' of the transfer, to repeat their point over and over, so that it might even appear that they are rabidly doing so.

You haven't even at any stage contested the point, just questioned it, and offered some whataboutery.
Do you disagree with the contention that was made? Can you explain your reasoning if you do?

phog

Deleted User wrote: »

whatabout this or whatabout that or whatabout what?

Are people not allowed raise rational points? Everyone, and I mean everyone, has said that this is a good signing for Munster.

By being so ultra-defensive, you have asked those who have (imo) logically pointed out of the comparatively small 'downside' of the transfer, to repeat their point over and over, so that it might even appear that they are rabidly doing so.

You haven't even at any stage contested the point, just questioned it, and offered some whataboutery.
Do you disagree with the contention that was made? Can you explain your reasoning if you do?

I actually don't accept that Foley is in any worse position now than he was 12 months ago, in fact I'd rate POC higher than Chisholm but think Chisholm will bring some of his own experiences to the position from which all our locks should benifit.

And having glanced at the news of KD siging over on that thread there wasn't one mention of how that signing might affect the IQ players.

I wonder why it became an issue today?

.ak

phog wrote: »

I actually don't accept that Foley is in any worse position now than he was 12 months ago, in fact I'd rate POC higher than Chisholm but think Chisholm will bring some of his own experiences to the position from which all our locks should benifit.

And having glanced at the news of KD siging over on that thread there wasn't one mention of how that signing might affect the IQ players.

I wonder why it became an issue today?

It's a completely different situation isn't it?

phog

phog wrote: »

I actually don't accept that Foley is in any worse position now than he was 12 months ago, in fact I'd rate POC higher than Chisholm but think Chisholm will bring some of his own experiences to the position from which all our locks should benifit.

Deleted User wrote: »

Well Ryan was injured, and had been long term, and DOC had just finished a season where he'd benched for most if not all of it (behind Foley). And POC was an insta-starter so Foley was vying for a spot with an injured player and a player who he'd been ahead of for the entire season.

The situation is totally different now, as Munster look to have more quality in the row with 3 players all vying for 2 spots without a huge amount between any of them.

phog wrote: »

And having glanced at the news of KD siging over on that thread there wasn't one mention of how that signing might affect the IQ players.

I wonder why it became an issue today?

Because there wasn't anywhere near the quality-competition at Leinster! Denton's international prospects weren't exactly affected by Douglas arriving. McCarthy was a bit-part* player with Cullen previously, and remained so with Douglas. .ak's first post after the announcement tells you the state of affairs!

Consider the Sexton returning instead, and the impact on Madigan for a comparable situation.
*not starting each week, benching for big games

total former

phog wrote: »

I actually don't accept that Foley is in any worse position now than he was 12 months ago, in fact I'd rate POC higher than Chisholm but think Chisholm will bring some of his own experiences to the position from which all our locks should benifit.

If Ryan again misses the entire season like he did last year, then yes, Foley is in exactly the same position.

phog wrote: »

And having glanced at the news of KD siging over on that thread there wasn't one mention of how that signing might affect the IQ players.

I wonder why it became an issue today?

I wonder why we can't discuss a Munster issue without dragging Leinster into it? Isn't that a more valid question.

phog

.ak wrote: »

It's a completely different situation isn't it?

International lock signs for an Irish province where two of the current players in the province could be starters for that province in a cup game.

phog

phog wrote: »

International lock signs for an Irish province where two of the current players in the province could be starters for that province in a cup game.

Ha!

So Brad Thorn's signing was the same situation too? Or Owen Finnegan's?

thomond2006

Phog by your rule unless someone posts on a similar topic every time it invalidates a subsequent opinion. This is strawman stuff.

Someone can surely make a comment without being cross examined on what they didn't post in the past. If I say X player had a good season, can I called out on never saying it during the season? I don't think that's fair.

Jankouskas87

Surely this is good news.Chilsom is a former international with experience of playing in the Northern Hempisphere the last few years.

People seem to be saying that the positive impact of signing him is negated by the negative impact it has on someone like Dave Foley.With all due respect if Dave Foley is good enough then he will start and Chilsom won't.

Without doubt there is potential that Dave Foley may leave if he feels as though he's not getting enough game time this seaon but that comes with the territory of professional sport right -how many players have left Munster cause they weren't getting enough game time went on to prove Munster wrong? (I'm genuinely unsure of this!)

Jankouskas87

Jankouskas87 wrote: »

Surely this is good news.Chilsom is a former international with experience of playing in the Northern Hempisphere the last few years.

People seem to be saying that the positive impact of signing him is negated by the negative impact it has on someone like Dave Foley.With all due respect if Dave Foley is good enough then he will start and Chilsom won't.

Without doubt there is potential that Dave Foley may leave if he feels as though he's not getting enough game time this seaon but that comes with the territory of professional sport right -how many players have left Munster cause they weren't getting enough game time went on to prove Munster wrong? (I'm genuinely unsure of this!)

Nobody is saying this! Everyone has said it's a good signing! The positives far outweigh the perceived negatives.

It could be read by number of comments that people are focusing on the single, small negative, but it's because tediously that single negative point has been questioned over and over and over again (though not once contradicted)

phog

thomond2006 wrote: »

Phog by your rule unless someone posts on a similar topic every time it invalidates a subsequent opinion. This is strawman stuff.

Someone can surely make a comment without being cross examined on what they didn't post in the past.

I'm making no rules just a real comparison

Anyway, I'm done with it.

Hagz

Jankouskas87 wrote: »

Surely this is good news.Chilsom is a former international with experience of playing in the Northern Hempisphere the last few years.

People seem to be saying that the positive impact of signing him is negated by the negative impact it has on someone like Dave Foley.With all due respect if Dave Foley is good enough then he will start and Chilsom won't.

Without doubt there is potential that Dave Foley may leave if he feels as though he's not getting enough game time this seaon but that comes with the territory of professional sport right -how many players have left Munster cause they weren't getting enough game time went on to prove Munster wrong? (I'm genuinely unsure of this!)

Wow. Talk about mis-interpretation! This is Chinese whispers stuff. Nobody said it was a bad signing, or that it was bad news, or that Dave Foley may leave Munster now as a result.

jm08

Donnacha Ryan emerged no problem with POC, DOC & Mick O'Driscoll in the squad. He didn't leave. Plenty of big games for all of them. I just can't see how Foley will lose out.

Interview with Chisolm here when at Bayonne - comes across as a very sound bloke and will fit in very well in Munster.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1sc8pa_bayonne-castres-mark-chisholm-se-confie_sport

PS - Toner was all the better for Thorn & Hines coming into the Leinster squad, though I must say I thought that bringing in Thorn must have been tough for Toner to take at the time.

smiley_face

thomond2006 wrote: »

Does anyone know when Holland, Foley and GVDH are back from injury?

17 July 2015 11:02am
Pre-Season Week 3 Update
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/20875.php#.VcIkiPNVhBc

Looks like 10 weeks of recovery for Holland after his ankle surgery, doesn't say when he got the surgery, but he could be back in action possibly 6-8 weeks from now I'm guessing.

Couldn't find any recent update on Foley or GVDH anywhere.

Jankouskas87

"Foley is more likely to lose out than Ryan, but this signing is bad news for all the locks at munster."

Actually some did say it was bad news.... but I'm taking this out of context in fairness.

I've reread the majority of the posts so far and ya people are definitely positive about the move - apologies for my previous misinterpretation.

Also me suggesting that "Dave Foley may leave Munster now as a result" is purely me speculating what happens if he doesn't play many games this season.

hendo12

Some amount of **** has been written about what Mark Chisholm's signing means to others. To me he is will be exactly the same as John Langford in '99 bringing something different and bringing on the younger locks and make Foley etc better. Remember DOC getting angry with Galwey? Made him better all those years ago. A bit of pride and that chip on the shoulder has always worked in Munster

phog

Chisholm meets up with Munster squad in Kilalloe today

Today also saw second row Mark Chisholm pay his first visit to his new club. The former Australian international and Bayonne captain was in Limerick today and met with Munster backroom staff in competing medical and fitness tests prior to his full move to the province in the coming weeks. It was announced on Wednesday that Chisholm will join Munster on a two-year contract subject to being granted a valid work permit and obtaining medical and fitness clearance.

phog

Tommy possibly out for months rather than weeks according to Ml Corcoran.

We're light enough in decent replacement for him.

He was badly missed at the later stages of last season.

jimmymcelroy

If o'donnell is only out for a few months we can deal with it. That injury looks potentially career threatening. Nearly 4 years to the day we lost wallace.