Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread IV

aimee1

MintyMagnum wrote: »

Why were Munster in black today?

they 'forgot' their away kit last week so stade wore white last week, and munster had to return the favour this weelk

MintyMagnum

aimee1 wrote: »

they 'forgot' their away kit last week so stade wore white last week, and munster had to return the favour this weelk

They should consider keeping it black!

Pepp1989

aimee1 wrote:

How was TOD a standout player for ireland? He played in one warm up game and got injured near the end of it. He played in 2 of the 6n games in 2015 IIRC [and played quite well but not really a standout overall].

I'm not going to go back and pick out sources but everyone from Schmidt down acknowledged how well he was going and what a loss he was for the world cup. He was in super form, playing very well. He was a standout imo. You obviously don't agree. Cool. I just think some people here are being overly harsh on a very good international standard player imo.

The Rape of Lucretia

Pepp1989 wrote: »

I'm not going to go back and pick out sources but everyone from Schmidt down acknowledged how well he was going and what a loss he was for the world cup. He was in super form, playing very well. He was a standout imo. You obviously don't agree. Cool. I just think some people here are being overly harsh on a very good international standard player imo.

And many think he is a very good interprovincial standard player, and not at all of the international standard that Ireland aspires to. Cool too.
Chief Justice Schmidt will deliver his verdict on all the evidence in two weeks time.

aimee1

Pepp1989 wrote: »

I'm not going to go back and pick out sources but everyone from Schmidt down acknowledged how well he was going and what a loss he was for the world cup. He was in super form, playing very well. He was a standout imo. You obviously don't agree. Cool. I just think some people here are being overly harsh on a very good international standard player imo.

if you read my previous comments, I dont disagree with you on him being good enough for international rugby. However he was not a standout in reality. The warm up games are just that, very hard to read much into the wales game. How can you claim he was a standout in super form on the basis of one warm up game after a break of 6 months in international rugby.

The only games before the RWC warm up were the 6n and he featured in two out of five. He put in two very good performances in the absence of SOB and Henry and all credit to the guy, he knew his role and fulfilled it in two very good wins for Ireland. To be a standout player he would have had to play in every game in 2015 prior to his injury in august. But he didnt. Its not knocking the guy in any way.

jm08

Buer wrote: »

Daft comment from GT; TOD has been blown away a number of times against the more physical and cohesive packs.

Like who?

He has really improved but he's never going to be up to the level of guys like POM or Stander. He's one of those guys that's hugely popular with his supporters (similar to Jordi Murphy, maybe) but simply is never going to be able to step up to be a good test level option and will always lack that top end power needed.

POM & Stander? What have they got to do in this discussion. They are not in competition for a place.

He has been around for quite a while at this point (turns 29 at the end of the season) and he has the same number of international starts as the likes of Niall Ronan for a reason. I would say he's perceived within the camp at a similar level to the likes of Dan Tuohy (who has been used very similarly for Ireland). He has done a really good job and been in great form at provincial level but will never be considered much more than a fall back in green.

Similar story to Chris Henry then? TOD is 3 years younger than Chris.

“Tommy’s gone to the hospital to get a scan,” said Schmidt. “At the moment we know he’s hurt his hip but we don’t know what the injury is and we’ll know more about that in the next 24 to 48 hours.
“The frustrating thing for Tommy is that he made 14 or 15 tackles, he got at least three, maybe four or five turnovers.
“I thought he started the game really strongly and he’s such a dynamic player for us that we’re just going to cross our fingers and wait and see to be honest.”

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

if you read my previous comments, I dont disagree with you on him being good enough for international rugby. However he was not a standout in reality. The warm up games are just that, very hard to read much into the wales game. How can you claim he was a standout in super form on the basis of one warm up game after a break of 6 months in international rugby.

Thats just it - his first start of the season was v. Ulster and Munster won. He looks to have picked up from where he left off 6 months ago. Munster were holding their own against Stade last weekend until he went off early.

The only games before the RWC warm up were the 6n and he featured in two out of five. He put in two very good performances in the absence of SOB and Henry and all credit to the guy, he knew his role and fulfilled it in two very good wins for Ireland. To be a standout player he would have had to play in every game in 2015 prior to his injury in august. But he didnt. Its not knocking the guy in any way.

So you don't think a player can improve then? Doesn't Schmdt give all players workons? He probably shouldn't bother doing that.

lazybones32

Has anyone attributed today's improved performance to Andy Farrell yet?

Did the live coverage begin on time? The first 30 mins of the recorded game is cricket and there were a few bits I particularly wanted to watch again: one of the first few scrums seemed as if the Stade LH was angling in a la Coles during RWC. Also, I'd like to see how many times Stade were offside (and how many times they got away with it).

jm08

lazybones32 wrote: »

Has anyone attributed today's improved performance to Andy Farrell yet?

Did the live coverage begin on time? The first 30 mins of the recorded game is cricket and there were a few bits I particularly wanted to watch again: one of the first few scrums seemed as if the Stade LH was angling in a la Coles during RWC. Also, I'd like to see how many times Stade were offside (and how many times they got away with it).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl4yfLQZVuM

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

Thats just it - his first start of the season was v. Ulster and Munster won. He looks to have picked up from where he left off 6 months ago. Munster were holding their own against Stade last weekend until he went off early.

So you don't think a player can improve then? Doesn't Schmdt give all players workons? He probably shouldn't bother doing that.

Im not knocking the guy and if you read back you will see I have said I think he is good enough for international rugby. I have said I dont think he was a standout player and thats not knocking the guy or his ability, quite the opposite, actually. I just dont think he was a standout performer on the basis of one good display in a RWC warm up game against a 2nd/3rd string wales side.

He is one of 8/9 viable options for Ireland in the backrow but I dont think he would be in the top 4 barring injuries/suspensions. And we have seen that in practice in the last two 6n. If he was such a standout performer he would force his way into the team on a regular basis but he hasnt so far.

He has come back from injury and put in some very good displays, because he is a good player. That proves nothing other then TOD is a good player. Some players find form immediately after injury, others take a little time.

And I never said I dont think a player can improve, dont know where your getting that from

Pink Fairy

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

And many think he is a very good interprovincial standard player, and not at all of the international standard that Ireland aspires to. Cool too.
Chief Justice Schmidt will deliver his verdict on all the evidence in two weeks time.

And will you have cream with your slice of humble pie?

The Rape of Lucretia

Pink Fairy wrote: »

And will you have cream with your slice of humble pie?

I'll see if pie is on the menu in 3 weeks time before I decide.
It may be off.

Buer

jm08 wrote: »

Like who?

I can only assume you're being obtuse. Even on MF there were long running discussions on his lack of impact in the tight exchanges over the years. He has improved significantly and is a late bloomer, but he's still never going to have the power of those who do get selected to start.

In terms of an example, given Henry seems to be the player he's compared to regularly, he dominated TOD in the biggest game they ever played against one another in 2012. TOD was removed early enough, in the end.

The bloke wasn't first choice for Munster regularly until he was 27. I don't understand why there's any real confusion as to his position within the Irish set up. He has one start ever for Ireland that was in a top tier test match (Italy) and not a warm up and that only came when Ruddock, SOB, Henry and Heaslip were all unavailable.

He's a talented player. Does a great job for Munster. Would do a solid job for Ireland (and has done) if relied on against most nations but will always be one step down from his Irish back row colleagues.

Pink Fairy

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I'll see if pie is on the menu in 3 weeks time before I decide.
It may be off.

Well, if its on, you're getting a double helping

shootermacg

aimee1 wrote: »

Im not knocking the guy and if you read back you will see I have said I think he is good enough for international rugby. I have said I dont think he was a standout player and thats not knocking the guy or his ability, quite the opposite, actually. I just dont think he was a standout performer on the basis of one good display in a RWC warm up game against a 2nd/3rd string wales side.

He is one of 8/9 viable options for Ireland in the backrow but I dont think he would be in the top 4 barring injuries/suspensions. And we have seen that in practice in the last two 6n. If he was such a standout performer he would force his way into the team on a regular basis but he hasnt so far.

He has come back from injury and put in some very good displays, because he is a good player. That proves nothing other then TOD is a good player. Some players find form immediately after injury, others take a little time.

And I never said I dont think a player can improve, dont know where your getting that from

I'll put money on the fact that he'll be in the squad, and if o'Brien isn't playing ToD will.

jm08

Buer wrote: »

I can only assume you're being obtuse. Even on MF there were long running discussions on his lack of impact in the tight exchanges over the years. He has improved significantly and is a late bloomer, but he's still never going to have the power of those who do get selected to start.

In terms of an example, given Henry seems to be the player he's compared to regularly, he dominated TOD in the biggest game they ever played against one another in 2012. TOD was removed early enough, in the end.

David Wallace retired in 2012. That game v. Ulster was TOD's first start in Heineken Cup. TOD played 60 minutes. Any physical domination was due to Ferris who had the game of his life, not Henry.

Since then, his whole physique changed and physicality has improved. Year before last he was Munster's Player of the Year, last year he was Runner Up to CJ.

The bloke wasn't first choice for Munster regularly until he was 27. I don't understand why there's any real confusion as to his position within the Irish set up. He has one start ever for Ireland that was in a top tier test match (Italy) and not a warm up and that only came when Ruddock, SOB, Henry and Heaslip were all unavailable.

You think Henry would be starting ahead of David Wallace if you had him in Ulster? He has a similar playing profile to Henry who got an early cap on a tour to SH (I think because D Wallace had to come home early for the birth of one of his children), after that we didn't see him until fairly recently.

He's a talented player. Does a great job for Munster. Would do a solid job for Ireland (and has done) if relied on against most nations but will always be one step down from his Irish back row colleagues.

Just like Henry is a step down from the current backrow. In my opinion, going on recent form, TOD is ahead of Henry - thats all I'm claiming.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

You think Henry would be starting ahead of David Wallace if you had him in Ulster? He has a similar playing profile to Henry who got an early cap on a tour to SH (I think because D Wallace had to come home early for the birth of one of his children), after that we didn't see him until fairly recently.

David Wallace wasn't the only player ahead of TOD back then. I think Chris Henry would start ahead of Niall Ronan.

Henry may have more of a struggle to make the XXIII now that Stander is eligible but I think he'd be ahead of TOD for that role in case of an injury to Stander/POM/Heaslip/SOB

Mahatma Geansai

God I miss David Wallace. Stander is doing a good impression of matching his heroics though.

And take a bow Keith Earls. He was fantastic today and really stepped up along with CJ as a leader of this side. Joe was only too happy to see Earls shine too.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

David Wallace wasn't the only player ahead of TOD back then. I think Chris Henry would start ahead of Niall Ronan.

Henry may have more of a struggle to make the XXIII now that Stander is eligible but I think he'd be ahead of TOD for that role in case of an injury to Stander/POM/Heaslip/SOB

I think you are stuck back in about 2013 and have missed that some players have improved since then (like TOD & Jordi Murphy) and Henry has had a very serious illness.

Just for the record, TOD & CJ made the Pro12 team of the year last season while TOD must have the best win ratio of any Irish international (100%!).

CatFromHue

nice try but that was serious pace from your man who scored that try last week. At the 6 second mark you can see they're level and he granted Earls is running slight;y towards him but he still hunts him down.

bamboozle

First time I'd watched Munster in ages.
Sherry - line out generally solid, he was everywhere, carrying tackling, causing a nuisance, when you consider the energy he lost at scrum time he'd a great game.
TOD - good game, made a nuisance of himself and played to serious intensity
Foley- never been too impressed but yest he was physical and looking for trouble, another ref could have binned parisee for nutting him in a ruck
Earls - great game, great try, looked energetic on the wing, seriously physical performance when he moved to 13
John Ryan and the Uruguay prop coped well all things considered, ryan carried a bit when introduced.
Murray was sloppy but grew into the game
Stander was great

Hope for Munster that time is invested now in scanell at 12.

mfceiling

jm08 wrote: »

David Wallace retired in 2012. That game v. Ulster was TOD's first start in Heineken Cup. TOD played 60 minutes. Any physical domination was due to Ferris who had the game of his life, not Henry.

Since then, his whole physique changed and physicality has improved. Year before last he was Munster's Player of the Year, last year he was Runner Up to CJ.



You think Henry would be starting ahead of David Wallace if you had him in Ulster? He has a similar playing profile to Henry who got an early cap on a tour to SH (I think because D Wallace had to come home early for the birth of one of his children), after that we didn't see him until fairly recently.



Just like Henry is a step down from the current backrow. In my opinion, going on recent form, TOD is ahead of Henry - thats all I'm claiming.

Recent form...TOD has been back for 2 games. Henry was part of a 6N championship winning backrow. Form is temporary. Going on that logic there would be a different ireland team every week.

The Rape of Lucretia

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Joe was only too happy to see Earls shine too.

What did he say ?

Pink Fairy

Nice touch by Zebo yesterday giving a pair of his WC boots to a kid who liked them ...it nearly restores my faith in humanity

The Rape of Lucretia

Pink Fairy wrote: »

Nice touch by Zebo yesterday giving a pair of his WC boots to a kid who liked them ...it nearly restores my faith in humanity

Anything Casillas can do...
I hope Munster Kid showed similar appreciation :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxloFQ6zQgY

phog

WTV's blog of the game


Must be easier to write and certainly easier to read after a win.

mfceiling

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

What did he say ?

He said "it's good to see keith shine again"

The Rape of Lucretia

mfceiling wrote: »

He said "it's good to see keith shine again"

Thanks. I didnt get to see the interviews after the game.

jm08

mfceiling wrote: »

Recent form...TOD has been back for 2 games. Henry was part of a 6N championship winning backrow. Form is temporary. Going on that logic there would be a different ireland team every week.

And TOD was part of 2 x 6Ns championships.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

And TOD was part of 2 x 6Ns championships.

For god sake why do you insist on being so obtuse? Chris Henry STARTED every game in a 6N winning season, in 2014. TOD has started one 6N game, ever.

The Rape of Lucretia

jm08 wrote: »

And TOD was (a bit-) part (player) of 2 x 6Ns championships.

So consistently backup material in Joe's plans then.
And Stander has jumped him in the backrow mix since too.

Pink Fairy

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

So consistently backup material in Joe's plans then.
And Stander has jumped him in the backrow mix since too.

You mean the player you call a mercenary?

The Rape of Lucretia

Pink Fairy wrote: »

You mean the player you call a mercenary?

Yes.

aimee1

Raiden Wide Pekinese wrote: »

For god sake why do you insist on being so obtuse? Chris Henry STARTED every game in a 6N winning season, in 2014. TOD has started one 6N game, ever.

And he only started that game because SOB picked up a slight injury in the warm up.

jm08

Raiden Wide Pekinese wrote: »

For god sake why do you insist on being so obtuse? Chris Henry STARTED every game in a 6N winning season, in 2014. TOD has started one 6N game, ever.

Yes 2014 (2 years ago when SOB was injured) and since then he has had a serious illness. He too had a bit part in the rugby World Cup and was poor against Argentina when SOB was really missed badly.

can you not accept TOD has improved since 2014 - making the PRO12 Dream Team - regarded as best performing 7 in PRO 12, the same comp that Henry plays regularly in?

athtrasna

Back to Munster talk, what's the story with Sheridan? Wasn't in the A 23?

jm08

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

So consistently backup material in Joe's plans then.
And Stander has jumped him in the backrow mix since too.

If Stander was a mercenary, he would be on his way to England or France next season.

thomond2006

athtrasna wrote: »

Back to Munster talk, what's the story with Sheridan? Wasn't in the A 23?

Maybe they wanted to give Foley a chance? I don't see the point in having both Williams and Sheridan in a A 23, they have both played numerous times and aren't going to get anything from it other than match sharpness. Sheridan is probably gone at the end of the season anyway.

Fireball07

Just on TOD, whether or not he's international class; I don't think it can be denied the impact he makes for Munster. I don't think yesterday was his best game by any means but over the past two years, our general performances have been way better when he's on the pitch than when he's not. We've missed him awfully for most of this season, likewise POM; we simply do not have great depth in the back row, particularly at 7.


Yesterday was a fine win, the team was so much more focused, more aggressive in every department and less error-prone than in recent weeks. I think Billy Holland also made a big impact- he mightn't be the most talented player in the world, he's certainly not a number 6 but he offers so much leadership. Look at him on the pitch, he is by far the most vocal player in the Munster 15- he is constantly talking to the rest of the players and he leads by example in work rate too, he puts in a massive shift. Maybe some of the Munster players could be accused of giving less than 100% in some games this season, particularly defensively.


The season has still been a disaster, one good win doesn't overcome what has gone before. We still have huge amounts of improving to do. I do believe that the players on the pitch are good enough to be reaching higher levels of performance and results than they have been but we do not have a huge amount of depth in certain key positions and goalkicking will still remain an issue.


I thought Earls was top class yesterday, he was hitting hard, he scored a beautiful try, was involved in creating another. Foley has had a poor season but was excellent yesterday, I thought Sherry had a big game too. The scrum creaked a bit early on but was better than in previous weeks after that. I thought Murray was one of our poorest players yesterday tbh, you'd generally expect him to be one of the best.

jm08

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

What did he say ?

The cameras paned onto him when Earls scored and he looked really pleased.

phog

Keeping it Munster related (on a Munster thread) for yesterday's game why KOB replaced by Scannell on the bench. I saw Scannell warming up but didn't realise he was on the bench until the subs ran down to behind the goals to do a warm up during the game.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

The cameras paned onto him when Earls scored and he looked really pleased.

did you think JS would be disgusted that one of his best wingers scored a good try?

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

did you think JS would be disgusted that one of his best wingers scored a good try?

Did you see the clip?

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

Did you see the clip?

yes i saw the game, and his reaction was no different to how i would expect him to.

Pepp1989

aimee1 wrote:

did you think JS would be disgusted that one of his best wingers scored a good try?

Ah here. Relax a bit. He just described exactly what happened. No need to be needling with your posts. You'll ruin a great thread.

Back to munster. Do people know if Sean Doyle is still hurt?

jm08

Seemingly Peter O'Mahony on flight to Paris this morning!

aimee1

Pepp1989 wrote: »

Ah here. Relax a bit. He just described exactly what happened. No need to be needling with your posts. You'll ruin a great thread.

Back to munster. Do people know if Sean Doyle is still hurt?

I just dont see why JS's reaction is a big deal. Ireland winger scores good try in ERCC game in a good all round performance for his club [munster]. Of course the national coach is going to be pleased

phog

Pepp1989 wrote: »

Ah here. Relax a bit. He just described exactly what happened. No need to be needling with your posts. You'll ruin a great thread.

Back to munster. Do people know if Sean Doyle is still hurt?

Doyle is listed at 7 for Munster A today

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

I just dont see why JS's reaction is a big deal. Ireland winger scores good try in ERCC game in a good all round performance for his club [munster]. Of course the national coach is going to be pleased

He seemed more animated than usual for him. I can't recall him being picked out by the cameras in the past. Can you?

Was a cracking try from Earls to be fair.