Management company took extra money other than management fee

bananaskin

Ok, so here is the situation, I pay my management fee for my apartment by direct debit on time 4 times a year for the last few years.
There was a leak in the commercial unit below me and the occupier called the management fee to arrange a plumber to see where the source of the leak was.
I am not sure what testing plumber did but he reckoned source was from my apartment, even though no one was there the week leak occurred. To cut a long story short, plumber advised what he thought needed to be done, I asked what the cost would be, price was steep so told him I would get it sorted my self. Management company sent invoice to me for over 200E as a call out charge for there plumber. I laughed it off and done nothing but when I checked banking online they took the fee plus the plumbers fee also. So I know this is long winded but is it legal to do what the company done? If not where can I go to report this behaviour? I thought it was very cheeky of them to do that, anyone else think so? Do these companies think the are above the law and can do what they want? Thanks in advance

davo10

If the leak was from your apartment then as the owner, you are responsible for the damage. The tenant below was within his rights to call the management company. You were not there so it stands to reason that they would call a plumber to stop the leak and prevent further damage (you could have been liable for damage to stock if leak went unattended). I really don't see the issue here if the invoice from the plumber was for that amount, it was an "emergency" call out. Have you since got a plumber to fix the problem permanently? If I were the tenant below, I would be worried about further leaks while you look around for the cheapest quote.

Now you might have to pay another plumber to come out and look at it and give you a quote.

bananaskin

davo10 wrote: »

If the leak was from your apartment then as the owner, you are responsible for the damage. The tenant below was within his rights to call the management company. You were not there so it stands to reason that they would call a plumber to stop the leak and prevent further damage (you could have been liable for damage to stock if leak went unattended). I really don't see the issue here if the invoice from the plumber was for that amount, it was an "emergency" call out. Have you since got a plumber to fix the problem permanently? If I were the tenant below, I would be worried about further leaks while you look around for the cheapest quote.

Now you might have to pay another plumber to come out and look at it and give you a quote.

They issue isn't about who is at fault or looking for the cheapest quote and for your information I got a plumber to sort it and he wasn't convinced the issue was coming from my apartment. As the original post was long enough I didn't feel I needed to go into all the details. So maybe you might be able to answer my question, are the management company legally allowed to debit my account without my permission for monies other than what was agreed on?

Paulw

bananaskin wrote: »

are the management company legally allowed to debit my account without my permission for monies other than what was agreed on?

Yes, they are.

They added the fee for the callout to your management fees, and debited that from your account, as per the direct debit mandate you signed.

If your plumber wasn't convinced, you should have had him do up a full report, and then you could dispute that report against the report from the plumber originally called. Then you may have been able to recover at least part of the callout fee that had to be paid. If your plumber wasn't convinced, then where did he think the water was coming from?

davo10

OP if water damage came downward and you are above, chances are it's from your apartment. Now I'm not a plumber but I do a bit of plumbing/electrical DIY so I would be surprised if the water pipes in the unit below you, came up from street level, up the side of his walls and across his ceiling.

Cerco

Op , do you have a copy of your agreement with the management company? Are you obliged to pay by direct debit?
You should demand a full written report by the plumber ,from the management company.
The management company would be obliged to respond to a leak in the shortest possible time. If the leak came from your apartment then you would be liable. How they should charge you is a different matter.

bananaskin

davo10 wrote: »

OP if water damage came downward and you are above, chances are it's from your apartment. Now I'm not a plumber but I do a bit of plumbing/electrical DIY so I would be surprised if the water pipes in the unit below you, came up from street level, up the side of his walls and across his ceiling.

That's a fair point there but again the issue is 'are they entitled to take monies apart from the management fee from my bank account with out notification'? Going back to the leak as you seem quite interested in it, there are two apts above and 2 units below, the water stain is on the boundary wall not the ceiling, below my floor level. The day I got call it looked like a lot of water had penetrated in a short time, it wasn't a gradual water stain. So out of nowhere, a lot of water penetrated into the wall, and there was no one there for a week! Their plumber reckon leak was coming from either sink or bath 1.5'' waste pipe that is buried in the floor slab. So I'm no plumber but does that sound conclusive to you. Talked to a few plumbers and they say it would be quite rare for waste pipe to disintegrate like that , so I got the bath waste piped above ground, approx 2 ft was buried in concrete slab so leak woild have to be in there,as thought this could be only place where large volume of water would flow, left sink waste alone and no issue in over six weeks, it's a strange one but again I'm not interested in the leak, it was the access to my account that annoyed me

Sparko

bananaskin wrote: »

That's a fair point there but again the issue is 'are they entitled to take monies apart from the management fee from my bank account with out notification'? Going back to the leak as you seem quite interested in it, there are two apts above and 2 units below, the water stain is on the boundary wall not the ceiling, below my floor level. The day I got call it looked like a lot of water had penetrated in a short time, it wasn't a gradual water stain. So out of nowhere, a lot of water penetrated into the wall, and there was no one there for a week! Their plumber reckon leak was coming from either sink or bath 1.5'' waste pipe that is buried in the floor slab. So I'm no plumber but does that sound conclusive to you. Talked to a few plumbers and they say it would be quite rare for waste pipe to disintegrate like that , so I got the bath waste piped above ground, approx 2 ft was buried in concrete slab so leak woild have to be in there,as thought this could be only place where large volume of water would flow, left sink waste alone and no issue in over six weeks, it's a strange one but again I'm not interested in the leak, it was the access to my account that annoyed me

I imagine the invoice they sent you was the notice?

bananaskin

Cerco wrote: »

Op , do you have a copy of your agreement with the management company? Are you obliged to pay by direct debit?
You should demand a full written report by the plumber ,from the management company.
The management company would be obliged to respond to a leak in the shortest possible time. If the leak came from your apartment then you would be liable. How they should charge you is a different matter.

Hey, haven't a copy of the direct debate mandate but if I recall correctly it seemed standard enough. The plumber report was about 2 lines saying checked apts and as my apt was the one above seemed like the culprit, said he did some tests but what tests, god only knows, as he was only in my apt for maybe 30 mins max. I did ask the plumber to quote the job as he had done a bit of investigation work,but I have been in construction long enough to know when someone is taking the mick! But thanks , I will get a report and a copy of dd mandate and cancel dd in the morning.

bananaskin

Sparko wrote: »

I imagine the invoice they sent you was the notice?

Yeah, probably but I would not have imagined, so there you go, and if I did I would have cancelled dd

davo10

bananaskin wrote: »

That's a fair point there but again the issue is 'are they entitled to take monies apart from the management fee from my bank account with out notification'? Going back to the leak as you seem quite interested in it, there are two apts above and 2 units below, the water stain is on the boundary wall not the ceiling, below my floor level. The day I got call it looked like a lot of water had penetrated in a short time, it wasn't a gradual water stain. So out of nowhere, a lot of water penetrated into the wall, and there was no one there for a week! Their plumber reckon leak was coming from either sink or bath 1.5'' waste pipe that is buried in the floor slab. So I'm no plumber but does that sound conclusive to you. Talked to a few plumbers and they say it would be quite rare for waste pipe to disintegrate like that , so I got the bath waste piped above ground, approx 2 ft was buried in concrete slab so leak woild have to be in there,as thought this could be only place where large volume of water would flow, left sink waste alone and no issue in over six weeks, it's a strange one but again I'm not interested in the leak, it was the access to my account that annoyed me

OP I understand you frustration. I own an apartment and I got a call one day to say the ceiling of the apartment below was damaged by a leak from mine. It turned out that those adjustable legs under baths would buckle slightly when someone stood in the bath while having a shower. The waste pipe eventually came loose/cracked allowing water to piss down into apartment below. Cost be a plumber and plasterer.

OP the only answer to your question is contained in your contract of purchase, this usually has the articles of the management company including what you agree to when signing the direct debit. You can ask the management company for a copy if this along with a copy of the invoice. If it says that they can take a payment if they have to carry out repairs in your behalf, then it's kosher.

bananaskin

Yeah, checked under the bath and was bone dry, which as you say is one of the first places water can get through due to weight of water and also when showering, weight of standing in it.
Suppose all I can do is fight it out with the company, will get copy of DD and contract of purchase.
thanks anyway, going to call it a night, I will let ye know how I get on

Melendez

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username123

Paulw wrote: »

Yes, they are.

They added the fee for the callout to your management fees, and debited that from your account, as per the direct debit mandate you signed.

Absolutely incorrect. The management company cannot decide to put their hand into someone's bank account and take unauthorised payment. SEPA exists for exactly this type of sharp practice.

davo10

Melendez wrote: »

The management company cannot take unauthorised amounts by direct debit. You are entitled, under SEPA, to instruct your bank to reverse any direct debit within 8 weeks of its execution. Your management company will have no say in this. You can do this even if the amount is authorised, although it may result in a breach of contract. I believe you will have to reverse the entire amount and reimburse the company with the management fees.

This does not mean you are not liable for the €200 you will still have to resolve this with the management company.

http://www.readyforsepa.ie/direct-debit.html

Again, all that depends on OPs contract. If he signed an agreement authorising payments for maintenance on the building by management company, then that changes things, they would have a right to take payment. There is only one way to find out.

bananaskin

Thanks, that is good to know. I know I will have to resolve the fee with the management company, and on a whole they seem like one of the better management companies out there but I thought it was much to send out the invoice and then debit the money without any consent. The plumber fee can be negotiated as he was called Friday at 12.00pm but couldn't get there till 11.00pm that evening, he spoke to me, told me it wasn't as serious as he was led to believe and then didn't get back there till the following Tuesday, anyway that's for me to sort, thanks again.

Melendez

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davo10

Melendez wrote: »

No it doesn't. He has to authorise each payment. If the amount is in dispute it should not be collected by direct debit. Are you saying the management company would be entitled to take €5000 out of the op's bank account for the plumber if they saw fit?

This will go around in circles until OP checks what exactly he agreed to. And yes is probably the answer to your question, if a leak from the OPs apartment caused severe damage to the property below and he agreed to reimburse the management company for any expenses incurred, then if those expenses were €5k, he would have agreed to/authorised payment if it's in the contract.

slimjimmc

Melendez wrote: »

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But you don't specifically authorise each DD payment, when you sign a DD mandate you give advance authorisation to pay amounts as billed. Many DD mandates allow unspecified amounts to be drawn.

Melendez wrote: »

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But apparently the amount wasn't disputed before it was collected, the OP was sent an invoice and just ignored it. If that invoice stated the payment would be taken by DD by a certain date the OP had an opportunity to dispute. No objection meant the payment went through unhindered.

Melendez wrote: »

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If that is what was agreed in his DD mandate and contract and is not disputed then yes but only after giving adequate notice as per the regulations.

Bepolite

OP you have to bear in mind 'the company' is the residents of the complex in which you live. You are the shareholders and you elect the directors. So few people take an active involvement in their own management company. Many people confuse the OMC with the managing agent. This is more of a mini-rant, but perhaps one you should take to heart.

As to the legalities, see section 13 of the MUD Act 2011

13.— (1) Subject to subsection (2), where the effective maintenance or management of the common areas of a multi-unit development so require, the owners’ management company shall have a right to carry out repairs or maintenance on a part of a relevant multi-unit development which is not in their ownership or control where such repairs are reasonably necessary to ensure the safe and effective occupation or the peaceful enjoyment of occupation of any unit or units in the development, and such right shall include the right of access for such purposes to or through any part of the multi-unit development not in common ownership.

(2) An owners’ management company shall not carry out repairs or maintenance pursuant to subsection (1) unless it has—

(a) requested the person who had responsibility for carrying out such repairs or maintenance to do so, and

(b) afforded such person a reasonable opportunity to carry out the repairs or maintenance.

(3) Subsection (2) shall not apply where it is essential that the repairs or maintenance concerned be carried out in the shortest possible period, so as to reduce or minimise any loss to the owners’ management company or the owner or occupier of a unit in the development.

(4) Where expenditure is incurred pursuant to subsection (1) the owners’ management company may recover such expenditure from any person (including the developer) who had responsibility for incurring such expenditure or carrying out the repairs and maintenance concerned.

No Pants

Should the OP not be using a standing order rather than a direct debit? The management fees are likely to remain constant throughout the year.

Paulw

No Pants wrote: »

Should the OP not be using a standing order rather than a direct debit? The management fees are likely to remain constant throughout the year.

It depends.

We use a standing order, since the fees are set for the year, but a new standing order must be setup each year.

Some companies use direct debit, but have it limited for a year, so a new one must be setup each year.

But, some other companies just setup a direct debit for as long as the member is part of the management company, so while fees and the amount debited may change every year (year on year), there is no need to fill out a new direct debit mandate each year.

athtrasna

We use a direct debit mandate that continues but in accordance with the terms of the dd scheme you are supposed to get ten working days notice of the amount to be debited. Doesn't sound like this happened to the OP so they would be entitled to get this reversed.

Bepolite

Even if they were wrong to take the money via direct debit, the OP owed the money. If it was in the account and you're able to live on beans on toast for the rest of the month I'd say suck it up. It's better than the car being clamped/services being shut off/a trip to court.

davo10

athtrasna wrote: »

..... ten working days notice of the amount to be debited. Doesn't sound like this happened to the OP so they would be entitled to get this reversed.

Athtrasna, OP said he got invoice, but he "laughed it off and done nothing". Sounds like they did notify him of amount owing.

athtrasna

davo10 wrote: »

Athtrasna, OP said he got invoice, but he "laughed it off and done nothing". Sounds like they did notify him of amount owing.

Amount owed and amount to be debited are two different things. If the invoice doesn't mention that the amount will be debited along with management fees if not paid sooner then my point stands.

amen

as he was only in my apt for maybe 30 mins max.

Are you saying that while you were way someone else let a plumber into your apartment ?

Del2005

athtrasna wrote: »

Amount owed and amount to be debited are two different things. If the invoice doesn't mention that the amount will be debited along with management fees if not paid sooner then my point stands.

Since the OP never read the document they got from their MC we have no idea what it was, but most MC's know what they are doing so you can be sure it most likely was an invoice.

amen wrote: »

Are you saying that while you were way someone else let a plumber into your apartment ?

Standard clause on all leases. If they can't contact you and you don't provide keyholder details they can enter for emergency repairs, much better to get a locksmith out then have a building damaged

davo10

athtrasna wrote: »

Amount owed and amount to be debited are two different things. If the invoice doesn't mention that the amount will be debited along with management fees if not paid sooner then my point stands.

Ath, this all goes back again to the agreement signed when purchasing the property. If OP signed an agreement authorising the MC to debit any fees associated with maintenance/damage, then they will wave this at OP. We can all guess/advise on the rights and wrongs of situations like this but as usual it comes down to the terms of the contract signed.

username123

Yet another reason never to set up a direct debit!

bananaskin

Ok, so contacted the bank and they said I just need to go to any branch and fill in the refund direct debit form and the money will be refunded, so hopefully that will sort that out. In future I will set up a standing order and if any extra management fee is owed at the end of the year, I will pay it then. I will still need to sort out bill but at least I can now dispute it with them. Thanks for advice