Management company took extra money other than management fee

davo10

bananaskin wrote: »

Ok, so contacted the bank and they said I just need to go to any branch and fill in the refund direct debit form and the money will be refunded, so hopefully that will sort that out. In future I will set up a standing order and if any extra management fee is owed at the end of the year, I will pay it then. I will still need to sort out bill but at least I can now dispute it with them. Thanks for advice

So you still owe them €200?, makes it all worth while.

username123

davo10 wrote: »

So you still owe them €200?, makes it all worth while.

There's really no need to be so condescending. Most people prefer to pay off monies owed when it suits them, not when it suits the other party. Maybe you are financially secure enough that an extra 200 in any given month wouldn't matter but for some of us that could be the difference between eating or not in the month.

bananaskin

davo10 wrote: »

So you still owe them €200?, makes it all worth while.

Well if you think posting on Boards and making one call to the bank is all lot of effort("after all that") then you must be a pleasure for utility companies and service providers, to deal with. What would you do if a disputed bill was deducted from your account, without you authorization? Ah sure pay it, too much hassle to query it!!
And you are incorrect about me still having to pay it, I will dispute it with the Management company and actually question the amount of the bill and request a detailed description of what the bill entails. If I am not happy with the amount, I will suggest to them that maybe the find an alternative plumber to work on their behalf, as it seems this guy is over priced, from my experience of him. It was not an emergency call out, the leak wasn't serious and he could not say for 100% if the source was from my apartment, it was speculation. There is a lot going on, plumbing wise, with a vent pipe that also goes to the roof and waste pipes, supply feeds for 4 units.
The principle grievance I have is the way the MC felt they could deduct the amount from my account without discussing it with me. It seems underhanded and cheeky, and does little for their relationship with me. As I have said, I always pay on time and never missed a payment, so is it too much hassle for them to make a call, when they had not heard back from me.

davo10

To the two above,

If you owe money, it is not your right to decide how and when you pay it.

OP, you have a right to dispute it, but you didn't, you "laughed it off" until the MC had to deduct it. They sent you an invoice and by your own account you ignored it.

The damage was done to the unit below, if I was renting it and I saw water coming down from above, I would be concerned for my business and stock so to the tenant it was an emergency. Again if there was more damage and it was confirmed it was from your unit, you would be responsible, how would you feel if the tenant sent you a bill for thousands?

P. Breathnach

davo10 wrote: »

...
If you owe money, it is not your right to decide how and when you pay it....

Within reason, it is.

davo10

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Within reason, it is.

True P, and that is why I keep saying over and over, look at the contract and mandate signed, it's all there, or not as the case may be. If it is not, then OP goes back to MC, if it is, then he has absolutely no grounds for dispute as he agreed to the charge being made. Again baring in mind, he was given the invoice before the payment was taken, he laughed at it, ignored it, but he did not dispute it.

bananaskin

Sure I ignored it, to be honest with you it is not my job to ring up the MC, regarding this issue. It is their job to contact me, you might think otherwise, but if somebody owed me money, I would be the one doing the chasing. And yeah I laughed at it as the occupier below called the MC, who called the plumber, who arrived 11hrs later and then didn't return for 4-5 days later, conducted minimal testing, and coming up with an un-conclusive assessment. I thought I would get a price of him for the work he suggested, even though I wasn't convinced his conclusion was correct, price was too expensive. I then got my own plumber to check it out, he wasn't convinced either of the cause of the leak, but we diverted 3ft of pipe over ground, which is what original plumber thought was cause. Also bear in mind, the apt had been vacant the week before leak occurred. I then get an invoice of over 200 euros, so yeah I thought that was funny.
Tell me this, if I had gone with original plumbers idea of diverting all the pipework above ground, believe me not a lot of work, as I have done this kind of work before, would I have been charged for the report and the work done, nearly 600 euro, or we he have knocked off the price for the report?
Again you seem obsessed with the fact I owe money, I always pay what is due, but i'm not a mug that gets messed around by a MC and take it lying down, I will reverse the DD and dispute it with the MC. Thanks to SEPA that should make things easier for me and in future I will not be paying DD, No MC should be allowed to dip into anyone's account without their permission.

davo10

Your question is, "can the MC debit your account for the amount owed"?, leaving aside the contention over the amount, work etc.

Reading threads like this, I wish the mods put in a filter before a thread can go up. The filter should be a question, "did you read the contract you signed and what does it say about the issue you are posting about"?. It's a simple question, but it would save a lot of arguments. The answer to your question should be obvious to anyone with even remedial intelligence, read your contract, it you agreed to allow MC to deduct expenses incurred in your behalf, then that's that, you got the invoice, ignored it, didn't dispute it etc. If the contract does not have a clause allowing them to do it, then you go in and demand your money back and negotiate the bill.

Now here is that very simple question, what does the contract you agreed to say?

bananaskin

I think my question was if it was legal or not to deduct money from account through a DD, for monies other than what was consented too.
If I had the contract, obviously I wouldn't have needed to come on here and ask, "that should be obvious to anyone with even remedial intelligence".
Requested the contracts from MC, no response from them.
From what I gather, it is legal if I consented, which is fair enough. I wont know till I get the contract, which btw was signed 13 yrs ago, so off the top of my head, I cant really remember the finer detail of the contract, maybe you can.
I posted to check if others had a similar experience of this happening.
I am glad I posted because I knew nothing about SEPA and only learned of its benefits on boards.

dudara

@davo10 Your posts here becoming personal - please refrain from making comments on intelligence. Consumer Issues is about honest, constructive advice.

dudara

davo10

bananaskin wrote: »

I think my question was if it was legal or not to deduct money from account through a DD, for monies other than what was consented too.
If I had the contract, obviously I wouldn't have needed to come on here and ask, "that should be obvious to anyone with even remedial intelligence".
Requested the contracts from MC, no response from them.
From what I gather, it is legal if I consented, which is fair enough. I wont know till I get the contract, which btw was signed 13 yrs ago, so off the top of my head, I cant really remember the finer detail of the contract, maybe you can.
I posted to check if others had a similar experience of this happening.
I am glad I posted because I knew nothing about SEPA and only learned of its benefits on boards.

Your solicitor will have a copy. By the way, you might get your money back through SEPA, but MCs usually attach a lien on properties with outstanding charges. These must be cleared before a property can be sold.

davo10

dudara wrote: »

@davo10 Your posts here becoming personal - please refrain from making comments on intelligence. Consumer Issues is about honest, constructive advice.

dudara

Which cannot be given if the OPs don't bother to read what they agreed to. Anyone can give an opinion on a situation, but who knows what the right advice is if an OP has no idea what they have signed/authorised.

bananaskin

hey, you assume that I didn't read the contract, if you read my post above, "contract signed 13 years ago", that doesn't indicate I didn't read the contract, it means I don't remember all the details.
Do you remember ever contract you sign, no body does, so you are incorrect in saying "OPs don't bother to read what they agreed to". Any way I will let ye know how I get on with the bank and the MC, if they bother to call when they notice the money has been refunded to my account and the DD cancelled.

davo10

bananaskin wrote: »

hey, you assume that I didn't read the contract, if you read my post above, "contract signed 13 years ago", that doesn't indicate I didn't read the contract, it means I don't remember all the details.

So would you benefit from reading it again to see if you actually signed an agreement authorising payments if this type?. It doesn't matter if you get a refund, all they have to do is attach a lien.

You know, you are angry about this but the facts remain, they invoiced you and you didn't dispute it, now you are crying foul when they debited your account in a manner which you don't know whether you agreed to or not. And this is leaving aside the fact that the unit below you was damaged.

bananaskin

I posted above that I have requested the contract, but MC have not sent it on, so obv I cant read it till I receive it.
I will say it again, just because my apt is above the unit, does not mean that the source of problem is my apt, that particular cavity has an assortment of feeds, waste and vent pipes, servicing 4 units.
I don't cry over money, its the principal as I have said before, and when some expert can tell me, 100%, problem is mine, I will rectify it, if it costs money, I have insurance. I seem to be repeating a lot of what I have said already posted to you, you go on about a lien, they can do what they want, but I probably wont be selling it for a long, long time.

Bepolite

OP if you have evidence that the leak did not come from you all well and good, otherwise you owe the money to the OMC by virtue of the MUD Act. You can argue back and forth all day long about contracts and the rights and wrongs of the DD but the bottom line is you owe the money. Pay it.

The OMC is there to ensure the complex runs smoothly and is run my the owners of the apartments/houses there in. Like it or not you're a shareholder in that company. If you don't like it; buy a property in fee simple and let the roof fall in. If you're living in a managed estate you need to play ball.

username123

Bepolite wrote: »

OP if you have evidence that the leak did not come from you all well and good, otherwise you owe the money to the OMC by virtue of the MUD Act. You can argue back and forth all day long about contracts and the rights and wrongs of the DD but the bottom line is you owe the money. Pay it.

The OMC is there to ensure the complex runs smoothly and is run my the owners of the apartments/houses there in. Like it or not you're a shareholder in that company. If you don't like it; buy a property in fee simple and let the roof fall in. If you're living in a managed estate you need to play ball.

So would you be happy if your management company put their hand in your bank account and took out 10k all in one go?

I don't think so.

It's quite likely even if the original DD agreement states that the management company can take amounts for MANAGEMENT FEES, that does not give them carte blanche to take out money for unusual or unexpected expenses via that same DD that was signed in good faith to cover varying yearly fees only. The spirit of that agreement is to allow for the fees to increase or fluctuate by a reasonable amount and not have to keep re jigging the agreement. It is NOT in the spirit of that agreement for the management company to simply take money when they please from the OPs account and it is for this type of problem that we now have SEPA.

The OP may well owe the money, but it is a disputed amount and he is entitled to reverse the DD and dispute the amount with the management company.

Bepolite

username123 wrote: »

So would you be happy if your management company put their hand in your bank account and took out 10k all in one go?

I don't think so.

It's quite likely even if the original DD agreement states that the management company can take amounts for MANAGEMENT FEES, that does not give them carte blanche to take out money for unusual or unexpected expenses via that same DD that was signed in good faith to cover varying yearly fees only. The spirit of that agreement is to allow for the fees to increase or fluctuate by a reasonable amount and not have to keep re jigging the agreement. It is NOT in the spirit of that agreement for the management company to simply take money when they please from the OPs account and it is for this type of problem that we now have SEPA.

The OP may well owe the money, but it is a disputed amount and he is entitled to reverse the DD and dispute the amount with the management company.

If the 10K was to prevent an additional 100K of damage then I'd live with it. Why should my neighbours have to pay my bills?

If the OP has incurred additional fees because of specific maintenance required to his unit and not repaired it in a timely manner then the management company are owed the money, arguably in management fees.

bananaskin

Username123 has hit the nail on the head, the DD was setup in good faith, for yearly management fees. If they had made a call to say they were going to debit my account using the DD set up, I would have disputed it then. Do you not think that by not contacting me in the first place, other than an invoice through my letter box, that they knew what they were doing was problematic. Were the not trying a fast one, did they feel they could not discuss it with me in a professional manner?
Again it is the principal that irks me. I have an insurance policy that could have been used for major damage and again there was no conclusive evidence that the source was from my apt

davo10

bananaskin wrote: »

Username123 has hit the nail on the head, the DD was setup in good faith, for yearly management fees. If they had made a call to say they were going to debit my account using the DD set up, I would have disputed it then......did they feel they could not discuss it with me in a professional manner?
apt

They sent you an invoice, you laughed at it and did nothing, I can't be the only reading this thread wondering why you didn't dispute it when you first received it.

If the water came from other sources then it would have damaged other properties, don't you think the MC would be aware of this.

And again, regarding the "good faith", you still don't know what you authorised them to do because you haven't read the contract.

Paulw

Bepolite wrote: »

If the OP has incurred additional fees because of specific maintenance required to his unit and not repaired it in a timely manner then the management company are owed the money, arguably in management fees.

That's exactly it. If a fee is incurred on a unit, then that fee is added to the management fees (since, in fact, ALL fees due are management fees), and that is then covered in the direct debit mandate already signed by the OP. That is normal practice.

Once the OP got the invoice, the OP should have contacted the management company and raised any objections. He didn't raise any objection, by ignoring the invoice, so I'm sure the management company simply assumed the OP was alright with it, and deducted the fee as normal.

The OP still has no proof that the water damage was not caused by his unit, and since this all seems to be well after the fact, has now limited his ability to dispute the situation.

Either way, a callout was made, out of hours, and a plumber attended. The OPs unit was the suspected cause of the leak, and as such, has been invoiced for the callout fee. This is due to the management company by the OP.

bananaskin

Paulw wrote: »

That's exactly it. If a fee is incurred on a unit, then that fee is added to the management fees (since, in fact, ALL fees due are management fees), and that is then covered in the direct debit mandate already signed by the OP. That is normal practice.

Once the OP got the invoice, the OP should have contacted the management company and raised any objections. He didn't raise any objection, by ignoring the invoice, so I'm sure the management company simply assumed the OP was alright with it, and deducted the fee as normal.

The OP still has no proof that the water damage was not caused by his unit, and since this all seems to be well after the fact, has now limited his ability to dispute the situation.

Either way, a callout was made, out of hours, and a plumber attended. The OPs unit was the suspected cause of the leak, and as such, has been invoiced for the callout fee. This is due to the management company by the OP.

The call out was not made out of hours. I thought you were assumed innocent till proven guilty, you seem to think it is the other way around, I should prove that it didn't come from my apt, strange logic that.

Paulw

bananaskin wrote: »

The call out was not made out of hours. I thought you were assumed innocent till proven guilty, you seem to think it is the other way around, I should prove that it didn't come from my apt, strange logic that.

Sorry, then just the callout was made.

The management company had to go by what they were told, which is - "he reckoned source was from my apartment". So, your unit caused the leak, hence you are liable for the cost.

And again, to answer your simple original question, yes, they are entitled to take the money from your account, since you signed up for direct debit for fees due.

username123

Paulw wrote: »

And again, to answer your simple original question, yes, they are entitled to take the money from your account, since you signed up for direct debit for fees due.

Nope, the money for the plumber is outside of the normal scope of yearly fees and should not have been taken via direct debit.

username123

Bepolite wrote: »

If the 10K was to prevent an additional 100K of damage then I'd live with it. Why should my neighbours have to pay my bills?

If the OP has incurred additional fees because of specific maintenance required to his unit and not repaired it in a timely manner then the management company are owed the money, arguably in management fees.

I'm sorry, but this post is not representative of real life. No normal sane reasonable person would accept a direct debit suddenly taking a 10k fee from their account. Very few current accounts would even have those kind of funds from month. Not in the real world anyway.

The OP is not disputing he may owe some money, he is disputing the manner in which it was taken and the sum owed. He is entitled to do that and his bank will back him by reversing the unauthorised payment.

dudara

davo10 wrote: »

Which cannot be given if the OPs don't bother to read what they agreed to. Anyone can give an opinion on a situation, but who knows what the right advice is if an OP has no idea what they have signed/authorised.

Anyone can give an opinion, but don't be abusive. No further discussion on thread.

dudara

davo10

username123 wrote: »

I'l No normal sane reasonable person would accept a direct debit suddenly taking a 10k fee from their account. .

But what if a "normal sane reasonable person" who has signed a mandate for fees associated with a MC, who has received an invoice, laughs at it and ignores it? The notice of fees due has been given, that is the time to dispute it. If his signed contract says MC can debit fees incurred in the "management" of a problem associated with his property, then where is the issue?

davo10

dudara wrote: »

Anyone can give an opinion, but don't be abusive. No further discussion on thread.

dudara

That isn't abusive, telling someone to read up on what they have agreed to when signing their contract is exactly what citizens advice/solicitors/ any one with common sense would advise a complainant to do. It isn't particular to this OP, it applies to everyone with a dispute between them and a contracted service provider.

username123

davo10 wrote: »

But what if a "normal sane reasonable person" who has signed a mandate for fees associated with a MC, who has received an invoice, laughs at it and ignores it? The notice of fees due has been given, that is the time to dispute it. If his signed contract says MC can debit fees incurred in the "management" of a problem associated with his property, then where is the issue?

Generally the managing agent negotiates contracts with various service providers, and the total cost to run the development is then split among the owners. Sometimes there are costs that fall outside the normal yearly total.

A call out to resolve a specific problem falls outside the normal scope of fees that are collected yearly to service the development. DDs are not supposed to be used for payment outside the normal scope of what they are set up to pay.

I don't expect someone who feels it would be ok to have 10k taken unexpectedly in a direct debit to understand that.

Bepolite

username123 wrote: »

I'm sorry, but this post is not representative of real life. No normal sane reasonable person would accept a direct debit suddenly taking a 10k fee from their account. Very few current accounts would even have those kind of funds from month. Not in the real world anyway.

The OP is not disputing he may owe some money, he is disputing the manner in which it was taken and the sum owed. He is entitled to do that and his bank will back him by reversing the unauthorised payment.

You presented the scenario.