Brazil vrs Germany , World Cup Semi-Final , 8/7/2014 , 9.00pm MOD WARNING in OP

Will I Amnt

Tokarev wrote: »

As good as Lahm and Hummels are (both are top class)
As i said, they won't score a free kick like Luiz did.



Class goal but again, Lahm won't score a free like Bob did.

Who cares if he won't score a free like Luiz? There's players at both of their clubs and country to do that.
Luiz is a terrible defender and that's his job.

He is just as likely to land those free kicks on the nearest train track as in the net anyway.

Tokarev

death1234567 wrote: »

This isn't the first time I have heard this and I wonder where this myth has come from. Just because he scored a fancy free kick doesn't mean he has played well. He's been all over the place defensively throughout the world cup. He can't defend, simple as that.

Have you been watching the world cup really?

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/statistics/castrol-index/index.html

http://www.whoscored.com/Players/27586/Show/David-Luiz

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Who cares if he won't score a free like Luiz? There's players at both of their clubs and country to do that.
Luiz is a terrible defender and that's his job.

He is just as likely to land those free kicks on the nearest train track as in the net anyway.

No one cares, so what

Yep, terrible defenders go in 50m transfers.

Augmerson

I still can't believe that happened.

Will I Amnt

Tokarev wrote: »

Have you been watching the world cup really?

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/statistics/castrol-index/index.html

http://www.whoscored.com/Players/27586/Show/David-Luiz




No one cares, so what

Yep, terrible defenders go in 50m transfers.

You seem to care...

And no need for pluralisation there, only one terrible defender goes in a 50m transfer.

artvandelay48

Tokarev wrote: »

But you can guarantee as great as Lahm or Hummels are they will never score a free kick like sideshow bob did.

And in fairness Luiz was good in the WC before the massacre last night.

Luiz would never ever make the tackle Lahm did. I know what I'd prefer from my defender.

OnTheCouch

David Luiz is a bit of an enigma all right. He is clearly hugely talented, you can imagine him at youth level dominating entire games, strong, skilful, brave, great shot etc etc.

Unfortunately, as Brazil found out to their cost last night, at the highest level, he simply can't defend to the standards required. I think ideally he would be a defensive midfielder, but I also suspect that in modern-day football he simply doesn't have an ideal position, he's constantly a square peg in a round hole wherever he plays. A luxury player essentially. For him to excel, it would have been far better to have been born 15-20 years earlier when football tactics and formations were different.

Conversely, he was born in exactly the right era to be a marketing man's dream, as Optimalprimerib correctly pointed out. I would have strong suspicions he is a very ebullient, out-going character, which is not necessarily a bad thing in terms of football, but he also appears to be a huge attention seeker, which is going to turn many people off him.

Now, not knowing the man, I can't say this for sure, but everything that he does appears to have an element of 'look at me' about it, the hair, the singing, the crying, pointing to the sky, the outrageous gestures, 'consoling' James Rodriguez (ok I may be being slightly harsh here but the cynic in me thinks he wanted an iconic shot of himself with the competition's stand out player), his general play even. He gives the impression that he is one of these 'politician'-type players (other notable examples in my opinion include Kompany, Rio Ferdinand, Wilshere and Lineker) who other than being marketing dreams themselves, seem to attempt to give the impression that they are great guys off the pitch also, through relentless use of social media. A very 21st century phenomenon.

Anyway, yeah how Chelsea managed to persuade PSG to part with 50 million for him...quite staggering.

Tokarev

Will I Amnt wrote: »

You seem to care...

And no need for pluralisation there, only one terrible defender goes in a 50m transfer.

And you seem to care..;)

As i said, terrible defenders don't go for 50m.

As bad as Luiz is, He still has better technical ability than most of the worlds best defenders.

GavRedKing

cournioni wrote: »

I think the amount of money paid is more down financial funny stuff between PSG and Chelsea than anything else. That is the only way that I could possibly figure out why someone would pay that much for Luiz.

I know youve explained it but for anything to benefit PSG we'd have to be buying Cavani for similar money to Luiz for PSG to see a benefit.

We we're reportedly after Lavezzi but that was for bids under 20million which would still see PSG lose 30million.

Anyway hes there problem now and the only reason the bid reached those crazy levels was Bayern and Barca were also meant to be in for Luiz sparking a bidding war, had only one club come in PSG could have saved about 15-20million.

brooke 2

AllGunsBlazing wrote: »

Speaking of 1950. I don't suppose another change of shirt colour might be on the cards?

Love the Germany strip. Brazil looked so shabby beside them - and not just talking
about the football!!

Tombo2001

Tokarev wrote: »

And you seem to care..;)

As i said, terrible defenders don't go for 50m.

As bad as Luiz is, He still has better technical ability than most of the worlds best defenders.

Just like Dirk Kuyt is one of the best defensive forwards in the world?

(I'd still rather have Van Persie).

Tokarev

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Just like Dirk Kuyt is one of the best defensive forwards in the world?

(I'd still rather have Van Persie).

What's this all about?

What, you think this?

Will I Amnt

Tokarev wrote: »

And you seem to care..;)

As i said, terrible defenders don't go for 50m.

As bad as Luiz is, He still has better technical ability than most of the worlds best defenders.

I don't care but I'll argue a point with someone who does. Scoring spectacular free kicks is way, way down on the list of requirements when assessing a centre back. Your use of it in his defence is pretty much irrelevant in a case to justify his worth or his place in a team.

Will I Amnt

Tokarev wrote: »

What's this all about?

What, you think this?

Kuyt offers more defensively than RvP as a forward but what you lose out on up front isn't worth the trade off to put it mildly. Much the same as the Luiz situation.

Tokarev

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I don't care but I'll argue a point with someone who does. Scoring spectacular free kicks is way, way down on the list of requirements when assessing a centre back. Your use of it in his defence is pretty much irrelevant in a case to justify his worth or his place in a team.

If, you did not care, you would not argue a point.

My use of what? Saying he scored a great free kick?

And saying he had a great world cup up to and before last nights match vs Germany?

Tokarev

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Kuyt offers more defensively than RvP as a forward but what you lose out on up front isn't worth the trade off to put it mildly. Much the same as the Luiz situation.

So?

Will I Amnt

Tokarev wrote: »

If, you did not care, you would not argue a point.

My use of what? Saying he scored a great free kick?

And saying he had a great world cup up to and before last nights match vs Germany?

I said "who cares" in relation to him being able to score a free kick that the other 2 couldn't.

jimmytwotimes 2013

David Luiz is not a centre half and never was. Mourinho rarely trusted him at the back and often used him as a midfielder. He does not tolerate players who give up chances.

Luiz is undoubtedly skilful and can be very influential. However, for every 10 skilful things he will do, there is one absolutely daft thing just waiting to happen.

Will I Amnt

Tokarev wrote: »

So?

If you don't see the correlation then forget it.

Tombo2001

Will I Amnt wrote: »

If you don't see the correlation then forget it.

Hard to argue with someone who doesnt understand their own argument.

GavRedKing

What I love about the Luiz talk is Chelsea beat Bayern in the UCL Final with Cahill and Luiz both carrying serious injuries into the game, just thought I'd throw it out there and a few German internatioanls were playing that night too. :pac:

death1234567

Tokarev wrote: »

Have you been watching the world cup really?

Yes I have. That's why I don't need to look up nonsensical statistics to show me who has played well and who hasn't.

Tokarev

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Hard to argue with someone who doesnt understand their own argument.

What argument?

A few blokes willy waving on a internet forum is an argument

Some people need to get a grip.

Will I Amnt

GavRedKing wrote: »

What I love about the Luiz talk is Chelsea beat Bayern in the UCL Final with Cahill and Luiz both carrying serious injuries into the game, just thought I'd throw it out there and a few German internatioanls were playing that night too. :pac:

And Liverpool had Djimi Traore...

Tokarev

death1234567 wrote: »

Yes I have. That's why I don't need to look up nonsensical statistics to show me who has played well and who hasn't.

Yeah right.

So nonsensical, that even online bookies ues them to settle bets :rolleyes:

Will I Amnt

Tokarev wrote: »

What argument?

A few blokes willy waving on a internet forum is an argument

Some people need to get a grip.

Seems like you don't get what an argument is either.

Tombo2001

GavRedKing wrote: »

What I love about the Luiz talk is Chelsea beat Bayern in the UCL Final with Cahill and Luiz both carrying serious injuries into the game, just thought I'd throw it out there and a few German internatioanls were playing that night too. :pac:

Interesting. They had Ryan Bertrand there as well of course.

The German team is the only team in this tournament that I believe is as good or better than a top,top champions league team.

The reason for that is that they have strength all over the field, and on the bench, and also that they play to a system that all the players understand.

Take England in contrast......they have some excellent players, Cahill as you mentioned, Sterling is very good, Rooney etc. However they have no system - or more specifically they dont have a sophisticated system of playing that players have been used to since they were kids. All the English players know how to play as individuals, but not as a team (to the standards required in a tournament like this).

Ferris_Bueller

David Luiz had a nightmare game last night, but people go overboard on the criticism of him I think. He has been solid in this world cup up until last night, where he honestly couldn't have played much worse, but even before this world cup people loved singling him out for criticism at Chelsea. My view is that he is an extremely talented player who can do things regularly on the pitch that not many others can, which is why PSG paid so much money for him I'd imagine, however the downside to him is that he can has a howler in him every few weeks.. If (only a matter of time I think) he can sort out his mistakes he will be one of the best centre halves in the world.

If he was an attacking player I think he would be rated a lot higher because people wouldn't mind his mistakes as much and they would mainly focus on the good he brings to the team, but people seem to focus on his mistakes rather than his qualities. Not the finished article yet and had one of the worst individual/team performances I've ever seen last night, but I think he gets more criticism than he should.

Tokarev

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Seems like you don't get what an argument is either.

What, disagreeing with some person on the internet is an argument?

As i said some people need to get a grip.

tigger123

David Luiz could score a free kick like that in every game, and it wouldn't justify picking him at centre back. His ball playing skills don't outweigh his lack of defensive skills (in recent performances).

You wouldn't pick David Beckham at centre back.

GavRedKing

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Interesting. They had Ryan Bertrand there as well of course.

The German team is the only team in this tournament that I believe that is as good or better than a top,top champions league team.

The reason for that is that they have strength all over the field, and on the bench, and also that they play to a system that all the players understand.

Take England in contrast......they have some excellent players, Cahill as you mentioned, Sterling is very good, Rooney etc. However they have no system - or more specifically they dont have a sophisticated system of playing that players have been used to since they were kids. All the English players know how to play as individuals, but not as a team (to the standards required in a tournament like this).

Bertrand played ok, although Malouda/Kalou should have started, Di Matteo was pulling a Jose.

Ya, the German team is a great unit, theyed probably be better if they moved Ozil behind Muller and had Gotze on a wing and Schurrle on the other but then youve to move around Kroos, Khedira and Schweinstiger into 2 CM positions so it works with Ozil ont he wing even if it isnt his best position.

Its hard to tell with England, is it coaching or is it the players, its probably a combination of both and that the system they do use mightnt always play to the strengths of the people in the squad but thats for another debate I suppose.

Tombo2001

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

David Luiz had a nightmare game last night, but people go overboard on the criticism of him I think. He has been solid in this world cup up until last night, where he honestly couldn't have played much worse, but even before this world cup people loved singling him out for criticism at Chelsea. My view is that he is an extremely talented player who can do things regularly on the pitch that not many others can, which is why PSG paid so much money for him I'd imagine, however the downside to him is that he can has a howler in him every few weeks.. If (only a matter of time I think) he can sort out his mistakes he will be one of the best centre halves in the world.

If he was an attacking player I think he would be rated a lot higher because people wouldn't mind his mistakes as much and they would mainly focus on the good he brings to the team, but people seem to focus on his mistakes rather than his qualities. Not the finished article yet and had one of the worst individual/team performances I've ever seen last night, but I think he gets more criticism than he should.

I dont think he's being criticised per se........I certainly think there were worse Brazil players last night. Its more that he's being valued at €50mn, which is I think the highest price ever for a defender, and trying to work out why, when he can put in a performance like this.

klose

Luiz is a bit of a clown at cb but his long range passing is ridiculously good. Should undoubtedly be playing central midfield.

Alf Veedersane

Luiz is a defender that cannot defend. He was found out last night.

There's a reason MOurinho was loath to play him in defence.

But ultimately he's been judged through the prism of his lofty price tag, which isn't his doing but is crazy all the same.

Will I Amnt

Tokarev wrote: »

What, disagreeing with some person on the internet is an argument?

As i said some people need to get a grip.

Yes to the first part and most definitely yes to the second...

Tokarev

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Yes to the first part and most definitely yes to the second...

We argee so to disagree...

Ferris_Bueller

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I dont think he's being criticised per se........I certainly think there were worse Brazil players last night. Its more that he's being valued at €50mn, which is I think the highest price ever for a defender, and trying to work out why, when he can put in a performance like this.

I agree I don't think he is worth €50m, but how many posters have said he is a defender who can't defend? That is simply untrue.

Alf Veedersane

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

I agree I don't think he is worth €50m, but how many posters have said he is a defender who can't defend? That is simply untrue.

Too often, the examples of defending are last ditch tackles that would have been avoided if he had a better positional sense. He's caught out of position too many times for a supposedly top class defender.

cournioni

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Would they not need to make these huge transfers between the clubs very regular for that to even have a chance of being effective? Not that I think it could be in any way.

They would have to make them reasonably regular, at least once or twice per season to be fair.

Shanotheslayer

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

I agree I don't think he is worth €50m, but how many posters have said he is a defender who can't defend? That is simply untrue.

He's a defender who can't defend well.

MisterAnarchy

Why was Luiz praying at the end…

“Thank you God, thank you for giving me the gift to captain my Country in our biggest defeat in our history, in front of our own fans ,which I will be remembered till the day I die”.

UnitedIrishman

Brilliant front page picture from the game last night in this mornings papers.

Today's google doodle is shown everywhere bar where the actual world cup is being held (understandably after last night)

roro1990

Last night’s game is exactly why football is the best sport on the planet for me. When you think you’ve seen it all, you turn on the tv only to watch the most successful team in international football history get absolutely bummed in a world cup semi-final. It’s hard to find the words to describe it. Me and 2 of my friends just sat there shouting in disbelief for about 10 minutes straight in the first half. I am still in utter shock. It was one of those moments where you’ll be asked years from now “where where you when Brzil got obliterated 1-7?” God I love football.

jmayo

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Who else could he have brought that would have made a big difference?

I actually think these two would have made a big difference to that defense last night.





Now of course one is 34, but he is still playing well enough to be in European finals, albeit they always lose them.
And he pops up for the odd goal as an old fashioned CF.
And from what I have ever seen of him he is damm good at marshalling a defense unlike the overpaid and overhpyed gentleman on his way to Paris.
The other guy has had a pretty good season at La Liga champions and CL runners up.

Neither of these even made the bloody squad.

Reekwind

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

Brilliant front page picture from the game last night in this mornings papers.

I prefer this front page:



("There isn't going to be coverage. Today, we are too ashamed to make jokes. We'll come back tomorrow*

*While you were reading this, Germany scored another goal")

Nuri Sahin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAgV53PhL14

Johner

Mesut Özil ‏@MesutOzil1088

you have a beautiful country, wonderful people and amazing footballers-this match may not destroy your pride! #Brasil

Classy comment from Ozil on Twitter.

BofaDeezNuhtz

Johner wrote: »

Classy comment from Ozil on Twitter.

http://imgur.com/gallery/OzDvvaw

MadYaker

I was in a bar in Galway last night that had a promotion on, everytime Germany scored a goal the price of a pint of erdinger dropped by 50c, they were doing a similar thing for some brazilian beer. By the end of it pints of erdinger were 50c! :pac:

We ended up getting absolutely buckled!

Mushy

Ah Roisín Dubh....great idea to get the punters in, and turns into a marketing idea, fair lay to them.