Brazil vrs Germany , World Cup Semi-Final , 8/7/2014 , 9.00pm MOD WARNING in OP

greendom

Luiz had an abomination last night, but I don't think he should be judged on that performance. The pressure of being captain for the national team just got to him. His head completely went. I'm sure he will come back the better player with a stronger character after living through that. That's if it doesn't freak his head altogether !

Skylinehead

greendom wrote: »

Luiz had an abomination last night, but I don't think he should be judged on that performance. The pressure of being captain for the national team just got to him. His head completely went. I'm sure he will come back the better player with a stronger character after living through that. That's if it doesn't freak his head altogether !

Yesterday was just the epitomisation of what David Luiz is though. Bad positionally, reckless, loses the head, gung ho - it's not the first time for any of that with him.

Turtwig

Aye I was really hoping Barca would sign him. The thought of him and pique together in the back line was a neutrals manna from heaven.

Will I Amnt

jmayo wrote: »

I actually think these two would have made a big difference to that defense last night.





Now of course one is 34, but he is still playing well enough to be in European finals, albeit they always lose them.
And he pops up for the odd goal as an old fashioned CF.
And from what I have ever seen of him he is damm good at marshalling a defense unlike the overpaid and overhpyed gentleman on his way to Paris.
The other guy has had a pretty good season at La Liga champions and CL runners up.

Neither of these even made the bloody squad.

Luisao would probably have been the more effective of those 2 last night to be honest. Filipe Luis would not have made a blind bit of difference to the outcome of that match, Germany strolled through the spine of that team with ease.

Anyway, my point is that they didn't have players left out that would have transformed them into a much superior team. They were lucky enough to get as far as they did.

Will I Amnt

MadYaker wrote: »

I was in a bar in Galway last night that had a promotion on, everytime Germany scored a goal the price of a pint of erdinger dropped by 50c, they were doing a similar thing for some brazilian beer. By the end of it pints of erdinger were 50c! :pac:

We ended up getting absolutely buckled!

I wonder if they'd have given them out for nothing had there been another.

Mushy

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I wonder if they'd have given them out for nothing had there been another.

Everyone in the pub cursing Ozil at the last minute!

Turtwig

Miranda surely should have been in that team?

eagle eye

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Luisao would probably have been the more effective of those 2 last night to be honest. Filipe Luis would not have made a blind bit of difference to the outcome of that match, Germany strolled through the spine of that team with ease.

Anyway, my point is that they didn't have players left out that would have transformed them into a much superior team. They were lucky enough to get as far as they did.

When you take the best centre-back in the world out of a team and then take the inspirational figure who is one of the best in his position out of a team you would expect them to be a lot worse.

There are players who should have been in that squad though in fairness. Lucas Moura should have been there and Miranda probably should not only have been brought but should have been starting, both of these players showed their form last season. They had Henrique in that squad which was ridiculous and Jo should not be near it either.

Blatter

Scolari really did show how ridiculously stubborn he is by persisting with Fred throughout the tournament. He was so ineffective it was almost like playing with 10 men.

Piliger

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Luisao would probably have been the more effective of those 2 last night to be honest. Filipe Luis would not have made a blind bit of difference to the outcome of that match, Germany strolled through the spine of that team with ease.

Anyway, my point is that they didn't have players left out that would have transformed them into a much superior team. They were lucky enough to get as far as they did.

You are completely right. Luis is a very good player but far from the best in the world as some people seem to think. And he is only one player.
The collapse in character that happened last night had to do with a lot more than football. This was not just a match that one side won 7-1. This was a capitulation in character and in integrity by a group of individuals that essentially surrendered a quarter of the way into a match. And pitted against that team was a professional team made up of strong individuals who had all of the character and integrity that the Brazilian players lacked.

Corholio

While Fred is not good enough, there wasnt actually a huge glut of centre forwards to pick from. Leandro Damiao seemed to disappear off the planet the last 2 years, Lucas Moura isn't a centre forward. Of the squad options, Hulk up front would have been a better option I think but even that has a number of pitfalls, such is Hulk.

Piliger

I haven't checked the whole thread if someone else posted this ... The Indo quotes Paddy Power today:

"A Paddy Power spokesperson said, “It was nice that that the rest of the Brazil team decided to miss the match in tribute to Neymar and Silva – but on reflection they’ll probably realise it kind of backfired."

Piliger

Corholio wrote: »

While Fred is not good enough, there wasnt actually a huge glut of centre forwards to pick from. Leandro Damiao seemed to disappear off the planet the last 2 years, Lucas Moura isn't a centre forward. Of the squad options, Hulk up front would have been a better option I think but even that has a number of pitfalls, such is Hulk.

Fred, Hulk, William, Bernard, Joe, Maxwell ..... we should have guessed the Brazilians were turning into England :rolleyes:

hjkl

Corholio wrote: »

While Fred is not good enough, there wasnt actually a huge glut of centre forwards to pick from. Leandro Damiao seemed to disappear off the planet the last 2 years, Lucas Moura isn't a centre forward. Of the squad options, Hulk up front would have been a better option I think but even that has a number of pitfalls, such is Hulk.

He should have changed the system and played Neymar up front, Oscar as no.10 and Hulk & Willian on either side of him. There was no need for Fred.

T runner

Borboletinha wrote: »

It was a humiliating match and there's no way to deny that. But as long as Brazil is the only country to have won 5 world cups as well as the only country to have been in each and every world cup since the beginning, Brazilian footballing tradition is alive and well, thank you. It was the worst match for Brazil since I can remember. Germany beat us and humiliated us but it did not wipe out our history. It will take Germany if they win the cup this time, or Italy 4 more years plus another cup to make it to where Brazil is right now, 5 times champions, humiliated or not.

Have to disagree with that. I agree with Eamonn Dunphys analysis that the demise of the Brazilian League (Europeanisation of world football) is responsible for the Demise of the Brazilian national team.

The German players play in the German style which they play week in and out for Bayern etc.

Due to their weak league: Brazilian national players are drawn from a hodge podge of European leagues. They have no Brazilian style to revert to any more.

Imagine if Brazils league was strong with 6-7 players coming from one club say Corinthians all playing a modern Brazilian attacking game, all playing in a Brazilian league. Brazil would be as strong as a world class Club team (as Germany are) and would have surely given Germany a game.

How does Brazil get its league back?

It needs corporate investment.
Options are limited. Pick only a few players playing outside Brazil.
This might allow corporations to invest in clubs so wages rise to get the stars back. Rising stars might tend to stay and then the job is nearly done.
That would take planning etc. Is that likely to happen? I think not.

Another huge threat is the rise of the US league as the potential major league in the Americas. The style of football might suit Brazilians better, but that would be the end of a revival of a 1st class Brazilian league.

Brazil benefited from a hybrid of Brazil and European style football for their two relatively recent world cup successes. A tighter defence but keeping the attacking ability. That's all gone now.

On Tuesday they played with a completely foreign style in their own country.
The next 5-6 world cups are all going to European teams.

GLaDOS

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I wonder if they'd have given them out for nothing had there been another.

If they'd scored 2 more they'd have had to pay people to drink beer

Piliger

T runner wrote: »

Have to disagree with that. I agree with Eamonn Dunphys analysis that the demise of the Brazilian League (Europeanisation of world football) is responsible for the Demise of the Brazilian national team.

Except that is a one dimensional piece of analysis. Why is the domestic league, in a country of supposed soccer crazy people, in such a bad situation ? THAT is the real question Brazilians need to ask. It's most certainly not because of nasty rich foreign countries poaching their players. A country that big (over 200 million!) with fans that numerous should have no problem competing with other countries.

Due to their weak league: Brazilian national players are drawn from a hodge podge of European leagues. They have no Brazilian style to revert to any more.

These players never had anything to revert to. They play as they played as kids.

Imagine if Brazils league was strong with 6-7 players coming from one club say Corinthians all playing a modern Brazilian attacking game, all playing in a Brazilian league. Brazil would be as strong as a world class Club team (as Germany are) and would have surely given Germany a game.

No they wouldn't Because they don't play like that in Brazil any more.

How does Brazil get its league back?
It needs corporate investment.

How can you possibly come to that conclusion ? Corporate investment would have gone into sponsorship if the Brazilian FA had managed and organised their league competently. There is little corporate investment in the premier League, except in advertising and sponsorship.

These are all spurious excuses and have absolutely nothing to do with Brazil's demise.

marienbad

Piliger wrote: »

Except that is a one dimensional piece of analysis. Why is the domestic league, in a country of supposed soccer crazy people, in such a bad situation ? THAT is the real question Brazilians need to ask. It's most certainly not because of nasty rich foreign countries poaching their players. A country that big (over 200 million!) with fans that numerous should have no problem competing with other countries.

These players never had anything to revert to. They play as they played as kids.

No they wouldn't Because they don't play like that in Brazil any more.

How can you possibly come to that conclusion ? Corporate investment would have gone into sponsorship if the Brazilian FA had managed and organised their league competently. There is little corporate investment in the premier League, except in advertising and sponsorship.

These are all spurious excuses and have absolutely nothing to do with Brazil's demise.

So what is your opinion is responsible for Brazil's demise ?

ArmaniJeanss

marienbad wrote: »

So what is your opinion is responsible for Brazil's demise ?

Demise is surely too strong a word.
They have just gotten to the semi-finals of the world cup which I suspect is historically their average position.

Piliger

marienbad wrote: »

So what is your opinion is responsible for Brazil's demise ?

Well for a start the blame lies inside the football world in Brazil and not anyone else. It is the management of the Brazil FA. How come they have millions of passionate and avid fans and yet they don't have a league capable of keeping top players ?
How come the Premier leagues in England,Spain, Italy, Germany, France can do it ? It's because of the fan base and tv coverage. Brazil has all of these thing.

marienbad

Piliger wrote: »

Well for a start the blame lies inside the football world in Brazil and not anyone else. It is the management of the Brazil FA. How come they have millions of passionate and avid fans and yet they don't have a league capable of keeping top players ?
How come the Premier leagues in England,Spain, Italy, Germany, France can do it ? It's because of the fan base and tv coverage. Brazil has all of these thing.

except wads of money like the European leagues .

ZeroThreat

Piliger wrote: »

Well for a start the blame lies inside the football world in Brazil and not anyone else. It is the management of the Brazil FA. How come they have millions of passionate and avid fans and yet they don't have a league capable of keeping top players ?
How come the Premier leagues in England,Spain, Italy, Germany, France can do it ? It's because of the fan base and tv coverage. Brazil has all of these thing.

Well Englands league could be accused of producing many top players. Attracting them yes, but definitely not producing.

Piliger

marienbad wrote: »

except wads of money like the European leagues .

And where do these leagues get the wads of money ?

marienbad

Piliger wrote: »

And where do these leagues get the wads of money ?

Seriously ???

Skylinehead

Piliger wrote: »

And where do these leagues get the wads of money ?

Rich people.

Son Of A Vidic

T runner wrote: »

Due to their weak league: Brazilian national players are drawn from a hodge podge of European leagues. They have no Brazilian style to revert to any more.

A weak league isn't the reason Brazilian players have been drawn to European leagues. They've gone to Europe to follow the money. And after nearly two decades of this, the results finally began to manifest during this current World Cup campaign.

Piliger

Skylinehead wrote: »

Rich people.

Well this is certainly not true in England. The vast majority of the money comes from tv and ticket sales and sponsorship. Rich people have put a tiny fraction of the money flowing into the game.

Skylinehead

Piliger wrote: »

Well this is certainly not true in England. The vast majority of the money comes from tv and ticket sales and sponsorship. Rich people have put a tiny fraction of the money flowing into the game.

Didn't really mean rich in terms of Bill Gates, rather the spending power of English vs Brazilian fans.

Corholio

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

A weak league isn't the reason Brazilian players have been drawn to European leagues. They've gone to Europe to follow the money. And after nearly two decades of this, the results finally began to manifest during this current World Cup campaign.

Just the money? Really? I think you know that's not true. I know we all don't have the greatest view of professional, rich football players but playing in the biggest and best leagues in the world is surely a reason too. If it had taken another 'two decades', would it still manifest itself from that? I have to say I disagree.

Reekwind

Corholio wrote: »

Just the money? Really? I think you know that's not true. I know we all don't have the greatest view of professional, rich football players but playing in the biggest and best leagues in the world is surely a reason too. If it had taken another 'two decades', would it still manifest itself from that? I have to say I disagree.

Think it through. The European leagues are "biggest and best" because they have money to attract the best players from around the world. Including Brazil.

T runner

Piliger wrote: »

Except that is a one dimensional piece of analysis. Why is the domestic league, in a country of supposed soccer crazy people, in such a bad situation ? THAT is the real question Brazilians need to ask. It's most certainly not because of nasty rich foreign countries poaching their players. A country that big (over 200 million!) with fans that numerous should have no problem competing with other countries.

Who said anything about nasty rich foreign countries? ALL of the top players in world football and the top few hundred in Brazil play in European clubs ergo the Europeanisation of world football.

These players never had anything to revert to. They play as they played as kids. No they wouldn't Because they don't play like that in Brazil any more.

They still play with a fluid South American style in Brazil which is different to the way many Brazilian internationals play in Europe. These players don't play as they played as kids in Europe: they play as their European coaches wish them to play. Germanys national players can play in a style they play in week in week out with their clubs. A huge advantage. Brazilian players cant. A huge disadvantage.

How can you possibly come to that conclusion ? Corporate investment would have gone into sponsorship if the Brazilian FA had managed and organised their league competently. There is little corporate investment in the premier League, except in advertising and sponsorship.

TV companies obviously form the massive chunk of corporate involvement in Football driving plyers values and wages up, luring players from the 4 corners of the earth into Europe.

These are all spurious excuses and have absolutely nothing to do with Brazil's demise.

You haven't been able to substantiate that.

If Brazils league could afford to keep all of Brazils top players in Brazil, you would have the Brazilian national team playing with fluency, using patterns and tactics that the players share and are familiar with week in week out. Just like Germany.

T runner

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

A weak league isn't the reason Brazilian players have been drawn to European leagues. They've gone to Europe to follow the money. And after nearly two decades of this, the results finally began to manifest during this current World Cup campaign.

I think you may have misunderstood me. If the league was strong then most of the Brazilian players would be chosen from the Brazilian league.
The Brazilian league is weak because the players (and their greedy unscrupulous agents) are cashing in on the European league. Agreed.
Far better for the standard of Brazilian national football (and for the welfare of their younger players) that they stay at home, in a strong league.

This used to happen naturally. With the emergence of the massive (Euro-centric) wads of TV money, the talent drain started.

Clearly if you have a national team emerging from a high standard national league then common style, tactics, patterns etc are largely already there and just need tweaking top create a coherent TEAM.

If you have Brazilian players from a hodge podge of leagues in Euro then these advantages disappear: youre starting from scratch and the potential is diminished greatly. You may end up with what you saw on Tuesday: a group of incoherent individuals, ruthlessly pulled apart and punished by a coherent, tactically astute team play from Germany.

Reekwind

T runner wrote: »

If you have Brazilian players from a hodge podge of leagues in Euro then these advantages disappear: youre starting from scratch and the potential is diminished greatly. You may end up with what you saw on Tuesday: a group of incoherent individuals, ruthlessly pulled apart and punished by a coherent, tactically astute team play from Germany.

There's a long discussion to be had about the relative merits of domestically based players. However, in the interests of time, let me summarise the argument against the notion that there are inherent advantages to having a squad based in one country: England.

T runner

Reekwind wrote: »

There's a long discussion to be had about the relative merits of domestically based players. However, in the interests of time, let me summarise the argument against the notion that there are inherent advantages to having a squad based in one country: England.

2 differences that i'll summarise:

-The chances of Brazilian players being a minority in a Brazilian league is slim to zero.

-The style of English football is too different from international football. The emphasis on getting the ball up quickly may be more exciting: but it means that English players haven't developed and evolved a sophisticated passing/possession game in order to be able to exert control. If you cant control a game with possession, it means you cant adapt in individual games.

This explain's England being a particularly poor second half team.

weisses

marienbad wrote: »

So what is your opinion is responsible for Brazil's demise ?

The wrong coach (tactics)

And the immense pressure on the players ... They had to become World champion in their home country.

marienbad

weisses wrote: »

The wrong coach (tactics)

And the immense pressure on the players ... They had to become World champion in their home country.

Rivaldo Ronaldino etc were the last great generation , but even so Brazil has been on a slow decline for a long time now, the 2002 world cup win just concealed that for a time. But that was the worst cup in living memory, Who did Brazil have to beat ? Turkey Costa Rica China Belgium England Turkey (again) and the worst German team of all time in the Final.

Joe prim

Strong rumour doing the rounds that Brazil are bringing in Noel King as interim manager for Saturday's game, based on his record against Germany?

Iused2likebusts

Brazil just didnt have the players this time around particularly attacking players. Football goes in cycles and at certain times lots of good players come through together duff, keane, dunne or as whats happening with ireland at the minute little or nothing. Obviously brazil is at a much greater scale than this. The likes of kaka, ronaldinho, robinho declined dramatacilly and you would have expected atleast 2 of them to have had a fairly significant role if you had of thought about this 4 years ago. The manager also must shift some of the blame as his tactics and team selection seemed to be made up based on what happened in the confederations cup with little or no changes despite some players losing form over the year. Expectations were so low in brazil before that confed cup and how they performed gave both the country and probably the manager unrealistic expectations about the level of some of the players. Brazil will be back and probably a lot quicker due to the scale of what happened against germany. Argentina have just reached their first in 24 years and their domestic league is much the same as the brazilian league

marienbad

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Brazil just didnt have the players this time around particularly attacking players. Football goes in cycles and at certain times lots of good players come through together duff, keane, dunne or as whats happening with ireland at the minute little or nothing. Obviously brazil is at a much greater scale than this. The likes of kaka, ronaldinho, robinho declined dramatacilly and you would have expected atleast 2 of them to have had a fairly significant role if you had of thought about this 4 years ago. The manager also must shift some of the blame as his tactics and team selection seemed to be made up based on what happened in the confederations cup with little or no changes despite some players losing form over the year. Expectations were so low in brazil before that confed cup and how they performed gave both the country and probably the manager unrealistic expectations about the level of some of the players. Brazil will be back and probably a lot quicker due to the scale of what happened against germany. Argentina have just reached their first in 24 years and their domestic league is much the same as the brazilian league

Argentina population 40 million, Brazil population 200 million. Argentina have overperformed in both the S.American Championship and the World Cup compared to Brazil.

Iused2likebusts

marienbad wrote: »

Argentina population 40 million, Brazil population 200 million. Argentina have overperformed in both the S.American Championship and the World Cup compared to Brazil.

Possibly all I'm saying is that it's a bad time in Brazilian football but they will be back I'm sure there was much the same talk in 1974 and 1978 coming after Brazil had won 3 of the previous 4 world cups yet they produced a brilliant 82 team and have won 2 more world cups. As you say a population of 200 million footballing loving people should be at the top they won't do it every time but they will recover.

marienbad

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Possibly all I'm saying is that it's a bad time in Brazilian football but they will be back I'm sure there was much the same talk in 1974 and 1978 coming after Brazil had won 3 of the previous 4 world cups yet they produced a brilliant 82 team and have won 2 more world cups. As you say a population of 200 million footballing loving people should be at the top they won't do it every time but they will recover.

Not unless there are major and fundamental changes they won't. Germany is a textbook example .

Piliger

T runner wrote: »

They still play with a fluid South American style in Brazil which is different to the way many Brazilian internationals play in Europe.

Not according to the games I saw earlier last season on sky from the Brazilian cup competition. Football there has changed enormously and they have abandoned their traditional style.

These players don't play as they played as kids in Europe: they play as their European coaches wish them to play.

They come formed according to the style that the Brazilian league plays.

Germany's national players can play in a style they play in week in week out with their clubs. A huge advantage. Brazilian players cant. A huge disadvantage.

That's because Germany play a possession driven, skill driven game. As do most continental countries in Europe except for England.

TV companies obviously form the massive chunk of corporate involvement in Football driving players values and wages up, luring players from the 4 corners of the earth into Europe.

Oh I see ... they don't have TV in Brazil ..... ? :rolleyes:

If Brazils league could afford to keep all of Brazils top players in Brazil, you would have the Brazilian national team playing with fluency, using patterns and tactics that the players share and are familiar with week in week out. Just like Germany.

Well why can't they afford it ? And how come they don't play that style in their leagues at home now ?

Iused2likebusts

marienbad wrote: »

Not unless there are major and fundamental changes they won't. Germany is a textbook example .

That's an easy statement to make again I'd think Brazil are in a poor cycle of players as happens to all countries and due to the sheer size of the country they will be back anyway. However we are probably going to have to wait 8 to 12 years to see who is correct . Germany had won 3 world cups before any of these changes and also euro 96 so were a major force anyway. After every world cup euros the team that wins it the media general public will say we need to do things that way. Germany argentina Brazil have always been in and around the top 3 nations this world cup has shown that they still are.

marienbad

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

That's an easy statement to make again I'd think Brazil are in a poor cycle of players as happens to all countries and due to the sheer size of the country they will be back anyway. However we are probably going to have to wait 8 to 12 years to see who is correct . Germany had won 3 world cups before any of these changes and also euro 96 so were a major force anyway. After every world cup euros the team that wins it the media general public will say we need to do things that way. Germany argentina Brazil have always been in and around the top 3 nations this world cup has shown that they still are.

Any statement is an easy statement to make, doesn't invalidate it though. The problems in Brazil are much more fundamental that going through a poor player cycle and will not be corrected very easily.

Take Germany as an example - they have re-invented themselves at least twice from the grass roots up. The last time after being turfed out of the Euro 2000 after elimination in the group stage with 1 solitary point . They are now in a final but only after root and branch change involving all participants from the grass roots up to the clubs and the national team.

It is actually a model example on how to run a sport. Brazil ( and us) should learn from it.

German football has inbuild advantages though that are hard to replicate elsewhere .

Iused2likebusts

marienbad wrote: »

Any statement is an easy statement to make, doesn't invalidate it though. The problems in Brazil are much more fundamental that going through a poor player cycle and will not be corrected very easily.

Take Germany as an example - they have re-invented themselves at least twice from the grass roots up. The last time after being turfed out of the Euro 2000 after elimination in the group stage with 1 solitary point . They are now in a final but only after root and branch change involving all participants from the grass roots up to the clubs and the national team.

It is actually a model example on how to run a sport. Brazil ( and us) should learn from it.

German football has inbuild advantages though that are hard to replicate elsewhere .

I understand what germany have done and it's great but the talk was off copying the Spanish way up till this tournament. Before that it was the french way. Football is cyclical by the time you get to copying the way somebody does something the game has changed and moved in another direction. If brazil had won this tournament maybe people would be saying European kids are over coached. Maybe your spot on but I think we would need to wait for at least another world cup or two to see if Brazilian football is doomed.

marienbad

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

I understand what germany have done and it's great but the talk was off copying the Spanish way up till this tournament. Before that it was the french way. Football is cyclical by the time you get to copying the way somebody does something the game has changed and moved in another direction. If brazil had won this tournament maybe people would be saying European kids are over coached. Maybe your spot on but I think we would need to wait for at least another world cup or two to see if Brazilian football is doomed.

There really isn't that much difference between the French Spanish German Dutch way and maybe that is why they are at the top right now. But those systems and success only came about through conscious and deliberate change .

The day is gone when you could rely on sheer numbers and tradition to win tournaments . The Brazil era of 82 is long gone and it ain't coming back.

Dunphy said the other night that there are 700 Brazil professionals playing abroad . My understanding is that he is grossly incorrect in that - the number is closer to 4000 ( so I read a few months back -I will try and find the source) .It is now one of Brazil's biggest exports and they are going at a younger and younger age and so the leagues at home are in serious decline . So the issues facing them are just enormous and that is before we get to agents and owners and corruption etc .

Iused2likebusts

marienbad wrote: »

There really isn't that much difference between the French Spanish German Dutch way and maybe that is why they are at the top right now. But those systems and success only came about through conscious and deliberate change .

The day is gone when you could rely on sheer numbers and tradition to win tournaments . The Brazil era of 82 is long gone and it ain't coming back.

Dunphy said the other night that there are 700 Brazil professionals playing abroad . My understanding is that he is grossly incorrect in that - the number is closer to 4000 ( so I read a few months back -I will try and find the source) .It is now one of Brazil's biggest exports and they are going at a younger and younger age and so the leagues at home are in serious decline . So the issues facing them are just enormous and that is before we get to agents and owners and corruption etc .

My understanding would be that the brazilian league isnt in decline the last few years infact its more than likely improving due to an improvement in the brazilian economy. They have been able to coax back the likes of ronaldinho and kaka more recently. Santos were also able to hang onto neymar for quite long considering his reputation. Brazilian teams have won the last 4 copa libertadores something they have never done in their history.
We have still seen 2 out of the 4 semi finalists come from S America.

Reekwind

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

I understand what germany have done and it's great but the talk was off copying the Spanish way up till this tournament. Before that it was the french way. Football is cyclical...

That's evolution, not a cycle. For the past two decades European teams have been moving towards an increasingly technical style of play. The Dutch, French, Spanish and Germans have all contributed to this process in increments. Brazil has gone the opposite direction in the same period.

marienbad wrote:

But those systems and success only came about through conscious and deliberate change .

Let's be clear on something here: Brazil's current style and team is as conscious and deliberate as anything in Europe. Following 1982 the Brazilian FA decided to promote a more physical style, in the belief that this was needed to compete with contemporary European teams. The current Brazil team - full of combative midfield terriers - is a product of this selection.

So the problem is not that Brazil hasn't had a clear direction (or that its 'natural flamboyance' has been weakened by exports) but that its FA bet on the wrong horse decades ago.

marienbad

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

My understanding would be that the brazilian league isnt in decline the last few years infact its more than likely improving due to an improvement in the brazilian economy. They have been able to coax back the likes of ronaldinho and kaka more recently. Santos were also able to hang onto neymar for quite long considering his reputation. Brazilian teams have won the last 4 copa libertadores something they have never done in their history.
We have still seen 2 out of the 4 semi finalists come from S America.

That is not saying much though , since Brazil won in 2002 there have been 3 semi finalist from S.America and 9 from Europe .

Ronaldino etc returned home at the end their careers as they was no European contracts on offer . Neymar is only 22 .

And speaking of Santos when they got hammered by Barcelona in the world club championship the gulf in class was glaring. And in the last championship the Brazil team didn't even make the final.

Piliger

marienbad wrote: »

That is not saying much though , since Brazil won in 2002 there have been 3 semi finalist from S.America and 9 from Europe .

Ronaldino etc returned home at the end their careers as they was no European contracts on offer . Neymar is only 22 .

And speaking of Santos when they got hammered by Barcelona in the world club championship the gulf in class was glaring. And in the last championship the Brazil team didn't even make the final.

This is one reason why this shameful humiliation of their football on the world stage may be enough for them to make the big changes that they need. But Brazil unfortunately is not a place known for coordination, planning and consensus. It is a chaotic corrupt country and I don't see much changing in the next 8 years. They will probably need more humiliation to spark the changes they need.