Brazil vrs Germany , World Cup Semi-Final , 8/7/2014 , 9.00pm MOD WARNING in OP

Iused2likebusts

marienbad wrote: »

That is not saying much though , since Brazil won in 2002 there have been 3 semi finalist from S.America and 9 from Europe .

Ronaldino etc returned home at the end their careers as they was no European contracts on offer . Neymar is only 22 .

And speaking of Santos when they got hammered by Barcelona in the world club championship the gulf in class was glaring. And in the last championship the Brazil team didn't even make the final.

You said the Brazilian league was in serious decline what is this opinion based on I pointed out a few facts that would indicate otherwise. I'm not saying it's a great league just that it's quite clear it's not in serious decline and more than likely in a better position than it was prior to the 2010 world cup

Piliger

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

You said the Brazilian league was in serious decline what is this opinion based on I pointed out a few facts that would indicate otherwise. I'm not saying it's a great league just that it's quite clear it's not in serious decline and more than likely in a better position than it was prior to the 2010 world cup

On what basis do you form that view ?

Iused2likebusts

Piliger wrote: »

On what basis do you form that view ?

The points I made a few posts back I can't see any evidence to say that the Brazilian league is in serious decline. 4 different brazilian teams have won the copa liberatodores between 2010 and 2013 a feat they have never achieved before .

RedemptionZ

Reekwind wrote: »

So the problem is not that Brazil hasn't had a clear direction (or that its 'natural flamboyance' has been weakened by exports) but that its FA bet on the wrong horse decades ago.

Yeah I'd say that's the best way to put it, at one stage looked like football was going to be a game for the big strong boys only, obviously hasn't turned out that way and time for Brazil to change their approach to developing players.

I personally don't think they'll ever get back to the 'kings of football' era. Football has changed too much and there's just too many dominant European teams with seemingly unlimited funds, with the likes of Russia knocking on the door too. Don't see them producing consistently world class sides for a long time now.

marienbad

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

The points I made a few posts back I can't see any evidence to say that the Brazilian league is in serious decline. 4 different brazilian teams have won the copa liberatodores between 2010 and 2013 a feat they have never achieved before .

The talent drain away to Europe is affecting all S.American football and not just Brazil . Their club results against European opposition in the last number of years is not very impressive .And this in a competiton that Europe don't even take seriously but they do.

Iused2likebusts

marienbad wrote: »

The talent drain away to Europe is affecting all S.American football and not just Brazil . Their club results against European opposition in the last number of years is not very impressive .And this in a competiton that Europe don't even take seriously but they do.

Corinthians won it a couple of years back. Do you really know and watch enough of brazilian league football to state that it's in serious decline.

marienbad

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Corinthians won it a couple of years back. Do you really know and watch enough of brazilian league football to state that it's in serious decline.

Yeah once in the last 7 or 8 years and yes I do watch a lot of Brazilian football, though less so in the last number of years I will admit.

And even omitting that the decline is evident in their performance in the last 3 world cups since 2006 . I am not anti Brazil by the way as I have been a huge fan since the first televised world cup in 66 and it is sad to see.

Reekwind

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Corinthians won it a couple of years back. Do you really know and watch enough of brazilian league football to state that it's in serious decline.

According to a man who watches a hell of a lot of Brazilian football, it is. The BBC's Tim Vickery is one of the foremost English experts on S American football. His conclusion is that "the Brazilian club game is currently a shambles, both in terms of organisation off the field and ideas on it."

He goes on to point out that, "the country's economic boom and the strength of the currency left clubs paying wages that are massively higher than elsewhere in South America. But this huge pay differential is hard to detect when watching the Copa Libertadores, the continent's equivalent of the Champions League.

True, Brazilian clubs have won the competition in each of the past four years, but without ever dominating - and bar the compact, European-style Corinthians of 2012, all have come back from the World Club Cup with their tail between their legs.

This year Brazil has not managed to qualify a single team for the Libertadores semi-finals - a failing that is scarcely credible given the country's financial advantage."

(The entire article is well worth reading)

Iused2likebusts

marienbad wrote: »

Yeah once in the last 7 or 8 years and yes I do watch a lot of Brazilian football, though less so in the last number of years I will admit.

And even omitting that the decline is evident in their performance in the last 3 world cups since 2006 . I am not anti Brazil by the way as I have been a huge fan since the first televised world cup in 66 and it is sad to see.

I agree there performances havent been great the last 3 world cups they had a lot of flair players in 06 though something they are being criticised for this time around. Brazil had a golden 12 years 50 odd years ago but since 1970 they have had some bad tournaments and some good ones the same as all the traditional big countries. You may be right as I stated earlier that the demise is terminal unless they do something drastic I think we need to see a couple of more tournaments before that can be proven.
I wouldnt claim to be a brazilian league expert either watch a bit of it when I have the time but I think the serious decline comment was a bit OTT .

Iused2likebusts

Reekwind wrote: »

According to a man who watches a hell of a lot of Brazilian football, it is. The BBC's Tim Vickery is one of the foremost English experts on S American football. His conclusion is that "the Brazilian club game is currently a shambles, both in terms of organisation off the field and ideas on it."

He goes on to point out that, "the country's economic boom and the strength of the currency left clubs paying wages that are massively higher than elsewhere in South America. But this huge pay differential is hard to detect when watching the Copa Libertadores, the continent's equivalent of the Champions League.

True, Brazilian clubs have won the competition in each of the past four years, but without ever dominating - and bar the compact, European-style Corinthians of 2012, all have come back from the World Club Cup with their tail between their legs.

This year Brazil has not managed to qualify a single team for the Libertadores semi-finals - a failing that is scarcely credible given the country's financial advantage."

(The entire article is well worth reading)

Its a good article but is there any proof that the league is any worse than at any stage since the turn of the century or that its in serious decline apart from 1 bad year results wise in the copa. I hate the way this brazilian team plays but maybe this time around they didnt have the correct manager in place with regard to tactics( and blinded by the confed cup) and they are at an unfortunate time in their cycle with regard to flair players. Its not that long ago that they had a squad with cafu , roberto carlos, ronaldinho, ronaldo, kaka, robinho, adriano. Players of the like the brazilian public wouldve been crying out for a decade or so before. I feel its a cycle I could be wrong but at this stage I feel its too early to say either way.

marienbad

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

I agree there performances havent been great the last 3 world cups they had a lot of flair players in 06 though something they are being criticised for this time around. Brazil had a golden 12 years 50 odd years ago but since 1970 they have had some bad tournaments and some good ones the same as all the traditional big countries. You may be right as I stated earlier that the demise is terminal unless they do something drastic I think we need to see a couple of more tournaments before that can be proven.
I wouldnt claim to be a brazilian league expert either watch a bit of it when I have the time but I think the serious decline comment was a bit OTT .

Making only 1 semi-final in 3 world cups is a huge decline , there is no disguising that . In the 3 previous world cups they reached 3 finals ,winning 2.

There is no papering over the cracks this time.

eagle eye

marienbad wrote: »

Making only 1 semi-final in 3 world cups is a huge decline , there is no disguising that . In the 3 previous world cups they reached 3 finals ,winning 2.

There is no papering over the cracks this time.

Making one semi-final is three World Cups is not a bad run. The Germans had a similar run before they made the final in 2002 and are now on a run of four semi-finals and two finals appearances since then.

You can be guaranteed that Brazil will be competitive in the next World Cup with a lot of young players to come through as is the norm. Players like Lucas Moura, Rafinha, Marquinhos, Juan, Lucas Piazon, the Fiorentina keeper whose name escapes me and there are loads more young talented players who could make the difference coming into a squad with some of the players who have learned a hard lesson in this World Cup.

I think Brazil will be back with a vengeance in Russia in four years time and hopefully somewhere other than Qatar(as in I don't want a World Cup there) in eight years time.

marienbad

eagle eye wrote: »

Making one semi-final is three World Cups is not a bad run. The Germans had a similar run before they made the final in 2002 and are now on a run of four semi-finals and two finals appearances since then.

You can be guaranteed that Brazil will be competitive in the next World Cup with a lot of young players to come through as is the norm. Players like Lucas Moura, Rafinha, Marquinhos, Juan, Lucas Piazon, the Fiorentina keeper whose name escapes me and there are loads more young talented players who could make the difference coming into a squad with some of the players who have learned a hard lesson in this World Cup.

I think Brazil will be back with a vengeance in Russia in four years time and hopefully somewhere other than Qatar(as in I don't want a World Cup there) in eight years time.

I semi-final (and that one only because of home advantage)is totally unacceptable for Brazil.

The Germans have made a comeback because they undertook root and branch reform. Brazil need to do the same

764dak

Reekwind wrote: »

That's evolution, not a cycle. For the past two decades European teams have been moving towards an increasingly technical style of play. The Dutch, French, Spanish and Germans have all contributed to this process in increments. Brazil has gone the opposite direction in the same period.

Let's be clear on something here: Brazil's current style and team is as conscious and deliberate as anything in Europe. Following 1982 the Brazilian FA decided to promote a more physical style, in the belief that this was needed to compete with contemporary European teams. The current Brazil team - full of combative midfield terriers - is a product of this selection.

So the problem is not that Brazil hasn't had a clear direction (or that its 'natural flamboyance' has been weakened by exports) but that its FA bet on the wrong horse decades ago.

Didn't the 2006 team have a lot of flair?

Iused2likebusts

marienbad wrote: »

Making only 1 semi-final in 3 world cups is a huge decline , there is no disguising that . In the 3 previous world cups they reached 3 finals ,winning 2.

There is no papering over the cracks this time.

Prior to reaching those 3 finals they went 3 world cups without getting past the quarter finals was there huge root and branch reform before the upturn in fortunes back then I'm not so sure. Their upturn seemed to coincide with lots of Brazilians coming to Europe to ply their trade now people are saying too many Brazilians are in Europe. It's like when England get knocked out of a world cup there is always the need for an excuse the academies were supposed to cure all their problems and have made no difference.

Pro. F

All this talk of the downfall of Brazilian football is ridiculous. They've loads of good players but a rubbish manager. For people who think they know so much about Brazilian football they've managed to overlook the significance of these two simple facts.

Iused2likebusts

Reekwind wrote: »

Let's be clear on something here: Brazil's current style and team is as conscious and deliberate as anything in Europe. Following 1982 the Brazilian FA decided to promote a more physical style, in the belief that this was needed to compete with contemporary European teams. The current Brazil team - full of combative midfield terriers - is a product of this selection.

So the problem is not that Brazil hasn't had a clear direction (or that its 'natural flamboyance' has been weakened by exports) but that its FA bet on the wrong horse decades ago.

Brazil have for the last 30 years had a fairly similar strategy and it nearly always involves combative midfield terriers as you put it. Sometimes its been successful sometimes it hasnt. Brazil 94 team had dunga and mauro silva Brazil 02 had edmilson, gilberto silva, kleberson. This is the way they set up with 2 defensive midfielders two full backs playing high and wide which most teams in europe now replicate. Cafu, josimar, branco etc where all doing this years before it became fashionable. The 4 forwards players then have flexibility. Hence the creativity comes from the 4 forward players and the two attacking full backs who also provide width. The problem this time round is that their 4 attacking players as a unit are not up to the required standard and their full backs performed really poor in an attacking sense. No country will win every world cup but brazil will be back as its almost inevitable that they will have better attacking players next time around and a more progressive manager.

Reekwind

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Brazil have for the last 30 years had a fairly similar strategy and it nearly always involves combative midfield terriers as you put it. Sometimes its been successful sometimes it hasnt. Brazil 94 team had dunga and mauro silva Brazil 02 had edmilson, gilberto silva, kleberson.

There are two points here. The first is that the Brazil 1994 team were one of the most pedestrian winners (or indeed Brazilian teams) in history. They ground out wins like a mid-tier Italian team.

But then that was possible in 1994 - Germany had just won the previous tournament via the same attritional means. In 2002 Scolari could make all the defensive changes he wanted (eg bringing Kleberson in for Juninho) safe in the knowledge that he had one of the most gifted forward lines in history and most European teams were not playing dissimilar football. At that point the two leading European teams in terms of technique (France and the Netherlands) had imploded for different reasons.

Today, playing such pedestrian football can still get you far if you have the right players. But at the highest level, when you come across a top-class team, technical difference is a key deciding factor. Europe has (England and Italy excepted) moved on and Brazil will forever be at a disadvantage until they correct that.

(Even with Argentina today, for all their typically stubborn defence, it has been their two Barca based players who have carried them through to the final.)

Iused2likebusts

Reekwind wrote: »

There are two points here. The first is that the Brazil 1994 team were one of the most pedestrian winners (or indeed Brazilian teams) in history. They ground out wins like a mid-tier Italian team.

But then that was possible in 1994 - Germany had just won the previous tournament via the same attritional means. In 2002 Scolari could make all the defensive changes he wanted (eg bringing Kleberson in for Juninho) safe in the knowledge that he had one of the most gifted forward lines in history and most European teams were not playing dissimilar football. At that point the two leading European teams in terms of technique (France and the Netherlands) had imploded for different reasons.

Today, playing such pedestrian football can still get you far if you have the right players. But at the highest level, when you come across a top-class team, technical difference is a key deciding factor. Europe has (England and Italy excepted) moved on and Brazil will forever be at a disadvantage until they correct that.

(Even with Argentina today, for all their typically stubborn defence, it has been their two Barca based players who have carried them through to the final.)

Which is what I said Brazil didn't have the flair players this time around you made out that the problems for brazil was the terrier like midfielders which almost every brazilian team in the last 30 years have had sometimes with success and sometimes without success.

Piliger

Pro. F wrote: »

All this talk of the downfall of Brazilian football is ridiculous. They've loads of good players but a rubbish manager. For people who think they know so much about Brazilian football they've managed to overlook the significance of these two simple facts.

Facts which are false. They don't have any players whatsoever that are significantly better than those in the squad this time. Not a single one.

Frankie Lee

Brazil will always be there or thereabouts. What they are lacking at the moment is a good manager and a top class striker. I'm confident they will produce a top class striker again fairly soon, the next manager is more important though. They have a good amount of top quality defenders coming through.

NotASheeple

Pro. F wrote: »

All this talk of the downfall of Brazilian football is ridiculous. They've loads of good players but a rubbish manager. For people who think they know so much about Brazilian football they've managed to overlook the significance of these two simple facts.

I agree, Scolari is the man that imposed the system and picked the talent that suited his system. We can only hope that their eyes have now been opened and they return to their roots.

Pro. F

Piliger wrote: »

Facts which are false. They don't have any players whatsoever that are significantly better than those in the squad this time. Not a single one.

Miranda and Luisao are significantly better than David Luiz; Fernando is significantly better than Gustavo; as a winger Lucas Moura is significantly better than Hulk and (within the squad) as a centre forward Hulk is significantly better than Fred and Jo.

Other than that, in what they did take, they have plenty of good players: Neymar, Oscar, Willian, Fernandinho, Thiago Silva - all very good players. And beyond that they also had a solid supporting cast.

With all of the above they definitely qualify as having "loads of good players" like I said. So the problem is clearly the rubbish manager rather than some catastrophic decline in their player production.

Skylinehead

Pro. F wrote: »

Fernando is significantly better than Gustavo;

I'd have Gustavo every time.