Gay Cake Controversy!

kunst nugget · 10-07-2014 12:05pm

gozunda wrote: »

As I said it has been put up as a question and answered many times in this thread already. As I said go order your cake and be happy. What's the problem.

Do you believe that if, as a non-gay man, I ordered the same cake from Asher's, the bakery would have made it for me?

osarusan · 10-07-2014 12:06pm

gozunda wrote: »

Your post didn't make sense imo. Hence the questions.

Sorry, I don't believe you.

gozunda · 10-07-2014 12:09pm

golfball37 wrote: »

Any business is perfectly within their rights to refuse somebody's custom.

Another storm in a teacup made into a big issue by the minority who want to promote their victimhood agenda on the rest of us.

With one teeny little exception ....

Where it is found to be discrimination.

Ignoring the legislation won't make it go away.

gozunda · 10-07-2014 12:09pm

osarusan wrote: »

Sorry, I don't believe you.

I don't understand your post!

osarusan · 10-07-2014 12:11pm

gozunda wrote: »

I don't understand your post!

I don't believe you. I think you are deliberately misrepresenting it.

aloyisious · 10-07-2014 12:11pm

This all boils down to the facts:

A. The bakery is a commercial business open for the provision of goods to the public. It is NOT a religious body.

B. A request was made by a member of the public to the bakery to provide a cake with writing on it.

C. The writing, and not the cake, is what the bakery staff and management felt unable to provide.

D. The law in N.I. on the sale and provision of goods is plain: providers are NOT allowed to refuse service when the refusal is to a
particular member of the public, purely because that person's request is NOT to the personal taste of the provider or staff.

E. The Gov't Department had/has NO choice but to apply the law as it stood/stand's.

.....................................................................................................................................................................

It's plain that the bakery was targetted by the person/s making/behind the request to see if it would supply the goods requested,
but the request made was/is well within the law.

gozunda · 10-07-2014 12:14pm

kunst nugget wrote: »

Do you believe that if, as a non-gay man, I ordered the same cake from Asher's, the bakery would have made it for me?

Is there some mad reason you keep asking the same question that has been answered already many times in this thread?

osarusan · 10-07-2014 12:15pm

aloyisious wrote: »

D. The law in N.I. on the sale and provision of goods is plain: providers are NOT allowed to refuse service when the refusal is to a
particular member of the public, purely because that person's request is NOT to the personal taste of the provider or staff.

If this is true, then the bakery have broken the law. It wouldn't a case of discrimination though.

But I find it hard to believe that the law is as you have stated. If a person wanted a cake decorated with..for example, text saying "I wish it was Bloody Sunday every Sunday" then the bakery would be breaking the law to refuse to make and decorate the cake as ordered?

Also, you use the term 'a particular member of the public' rather than just saying 'a member of the public'. Is there any significance to your use of the word 'particular'?

kunst nugget · 10-07-2014 12:15pm

gozunda wrote: »

Is there some mad reason you keep asking the same question that has been answered already many times in this thread?

Because you never seem to answer it.

Annasopra · 10-07-2014 12:21pm

golfball37 wrote: »

Any business is perfectly within their rights to refuse somebody's custom.

Within the law. Its really that simple. I dont know whats difficult to understand about that.

gozunda · 10-07-2014 12:21pm

kunst nugget wrote: »

Because you never seem to answer it.

But is has 'been answered'. Unless you are advocating trolling?

old hippy · 10-07-2014 12:22pm

golfball37 wrote: »

Any business is perfectly within their rights to refuse somebody's custom.

Another storm in a teacup made into a big issue by the minority who want to promote their victimhood agenda on the rest of us.

Another step forward in the battle for equality and keeping the bigots at bay.

Because of religious teachings, because of willful ignorance against gay people, because of intolerance and people trying to oppress homosexuals. Because of the gay people murdered all around the globe due to their orientation.

Because of you.

Because every small step is a step forward.

BECAUSE.

Annasopra · 10-07-2014 12:25pm

aloyisious wrote: »

D. The law in N.I. on the sale and provision of goods is plain: providers are NOT allowed to refuse service when the refusal is to a
particular member of the public, purely because that person's request is NOT to the personal taste of the provider or staff.
.

Sorry what? I dont think thats the law at all!

gozunda · 10-07-2014 12:25pm

aloyisious wrote: »

......

It's plain that the bakery was targetted by the person/s making/behind the request to see if it would supply the goods requested,
but the request made was/is well within the law.

What evidence do you have for the that accusation?

"The cake was ordered for an International Day Against Homophobia and Transphobia event, hosted by Alliance councillor Andrew Muir, who said another bakery accepted the order"

See

http://m.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581

There's even a photo of the cake (baked by another bakery) being cut by Andrew Muir ...

hatrickpatrick · 10-07-2014 12:29pm

lazygal wrote: »

WTF is a bakery run on Christian values anyway?

They give you a fraction of the cake you ordered and charge you extra on the basis that it will multiply endlessly when you start serving it?

kunst nugget · 10-07-2014 12:29pm

gozunda wrote: »

But is has 'been answered'. Unless you are advocating trolling?

No, I don't. I was asking your opinion. I've checked through your posts and you haven't answered it as far as I can tell.

gozunda · 10-07-2014 12:32pm

kunst nugget wrote: »

No, I don't. I was asking your opinion. I've checked through your posts and you haven't answered it as far as I can tell.

Maybe you should read the full thread and actually find where this has been asked and answered. Or are you just picking on me for some particular reason?

kunst nugget · 10-07-2014 12:32pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Sorry what? I dont think thats the law at all!

That does seem completely wrong to me as well. If that was the case, I'd go into a bakery and ask them to make a cake of Jimmy Savile fondling a corpse and then sue when they refused to make it.

old hippy · 10-07-2014 12:34pm

kunst nugget wrote: »

That does seem completely wrong to me as well. If that was the case, I'd go into a bakery and ask them to make a cake of Jimmy Savile fondling a corpse and then sue when they refused to make it.

This is about equality for gays and fighting discrimination - not about necrophilia.

kunst nugget · 10-07-2014 12:34pm

gozunda wrote: »

Maybe you should read the full thread and actually find where this has been asked and answered. Or are you just picking on me for some particular reason?

I just want to get your personal opinion on what you think would happen. You seem unable or unwilling to give it…

gozunda · 10-07-2014 12:36pm

Quote: golfball37
Any business is perfectly within their rights to refuse somebody's custom.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Within the law. Its really that simple. I dont know whats difficult to understand about that.

Well I guess that it's provably because it appears that refusal in this case was not 'within the law'. Hence the action of the Equality Commission. Tbh at this stage it's probably best you took it up with them rather than ignoring that.

kunst nugget · 10-07-2014 12:37pm

old hippy wrote: »

This is about equality for gays and fighting discrimination - not about necrophilia.

:rolleyes: I know it is. I was pointing out what was wrong with the wording of aloyisious' interpretation of NI law.

D. The law in N.I. on the sale and provision of goods is plain: providers are NOT allowed to refuse service when the refusal is to a
particular member of the public, purely because that person's request is NOT to the personal taste of the provider or staff.

old hippy · 10-07-2014 12:38pm

kunst nugget wrote: »

I just want to get your personal opinion on what you think would happen. You seem unable or unwilling to give it…

You seem quite content to make the thread about something it's not. It's not about straight people being discriminated against or dead people.

Why are you muddying the topic?

gozunda · 10-07-2014 12:38pm

kunst nugget wrote: »

I just want to get your personal opinion on what you think would happen. You seem unable or unwilling to give it…

Why my personal opinion? You seem to be more interested in myself than what has been clearly stated multiple times already. Are you trying to impress me or something?

dxhound2005 · 10-07-2014 12:38pm

old hippy wrote: »

Another step forward in the battle for equality and keeping the bigots at bay.

Because of religious teachings, because of willful ignorance against gay people, because of intolerance and people trying to oppress homosexuals. Because of the gay people murdered all around the globe due to their orientation.

Because of you.

Because every small step is a step forward.

BECAUSE.

Leave out anything to do with religion, most of the world has not changed the centuries old regulation that marriage is a legal instrument to recognise the union of one man and one woman, provided both are over a certain age and are not close blood relations.

The political campaigns in various countries to extend that regulation to Same Sex couples is brand new and there is no consensus anywhere in it's favour. Holding the view that marriage should not be extended to Same Sex couples does not make a person homophobic or bigoted.

Forcing others who do not agree with the campaign to do something to promote the campaign is a denial of their right to hold that point of view. Especially in a country where that point of view is upheld by the law.

bodice ripper · 10-07-2014 12:41pm

I refuse to tattoo swastikas, wolfangels etc. Am I wrong to do that?

gozunda · 10-07-2014 12:41pm

kunst nugget wrote: »

:rolleyes: I know it is. I was pointing out what was wrong with the wording of aloyisious' interpretation of NI law.

Ok please provide the wording of the correct NI Law. I take it that you an expert on NI legislation.

old hippy · 10-07-2014 12:44pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Holding the view that marriage should not be extended to Same Sex couples does not make a person homophobic or bigoted.

Forcing others who do not agree with the campaign to do something to promote the campaign is a denial of their right to hold that point of view. Especially in a country where that point of view is upheld by the law.

It does make them homophobic & bigoted. They are refusing equality to people who want to get married.

The right to be bigoted for no other reason than irrational prejudice, you mean?

Equality is coming. Prepare yourselves.

kunst nugget · 10-07-2014 12:44pm

gozunda wrote: »

Why my personal opinion? You seem to be more interested in myself than what has been clearly stated multiple times already. Are you trying to impress me or something?

I simply wanted to know if you thought a non-gay man would have gotten the same cake made for him if he ordered it from that bakery - a reasonable question in relation to this discussion I think - and you refuse to answer. Why?

osarusan · 10-07-2014 12:44pm

old hippy wrote: »

You seem quite content to make the thread about something it's not. It's not about straight people being discriminated against or dead people.

The question of whether or not a heterosexual customer would have also been refused is not some irrelevance - it is central to the issue of establishing whether this is a case of discrimination.

old hippy · 10-07-2014 12:45pm

bodice ripper wrote: »

I refuse to tattoo swastikas, wolfangels etc. Am I wrong to do that?

This has nothing to do with tattoos, though, does it?

kunst nugget · 10-07-2014 12:45pm

gozunda wrote: »

Ok please provide the wording of the correct NI Law. I take it that you an expert on NI legislation.

I'm not pretending to be an expert in the law. I was showing how aloyisious' definition of the law was way too open ended.

bodice ripper · 10-07-2014 12:46pm

old hippy wrote: »

This has nothing to do with tattoos, though, does it?

jesus man.

I refuse to provide a service because I do not agree with the message. Do I need to walk you through it again?

gozunda · 10-07-2014 12:47pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Leave out anything to do with religion, most of the world has not changed the centuries old regulation that marriage is a legal instrument to recognise the union of one man and one woman, provided both are over a certain age and are not close blood relations.

The political campaigns in various countries to extend that regulation to Same Sex couples is brand new and there is no consensus anywhere in it's favour. Holding the view that marriage should not be extended to Same Sex couples does not make a person homophobic or bigoted.

Forcing others who do not agree with the campaign to do something to promote the campaign is a denial of their right to hold that point of view. Especially in a country where that point of view is upheld by the law.

So nothing do with religion. Just plain old homophobia then?

Smack me with a kipper!

kunst nugget · 10-07-2014 12:48pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Holding the view that marriage should not be extended to Same Sex couples does not make a person homophobic or bigoted.

Actually, it does make you bigoted.

old hippy · 10-07-2014 12:48pm

bodice ripper wrote: »

jesus man.

I refuse to provide a service because I do not agree with the message. Do I need to walk you through it again?

If you mean the nazi swastika, as opposed to the Eastern swastika, that is a sign of hatred and tyranny.

The cake in question was a sign for equality and love.

Do you see the difference?

kunst nugget · 10-07-2014 12:49pm

old hippy wrote: »

This has nothing to do with tattoos, though, does it?

Bodice ripper is trying to show that she lets her conscience be her guide in terms of the work she produces. Should she have to do tattoos that she finds morally repugnant?

Donkey Oaty · 10-07-2014 12:49pm

old hippy wrote: »

This has nothing to do with tattoos, though, does it?

It's about providing a customised product that goes against the beliefs (political, religious, whatever) of the provider.

Have a look at this case, where a printer in NI refused to print a gay magazine last year. I haven't been able to find any follow-up, legal or otherwise, and there's no mention of it on the Equality Commission website.

Unless it's pending, or was settled out of court secretly with a media blackout, then it's not looking good for the people bringing the cake case.

bodice ripper · 10-07-2014 12:49pm

old hippy wrote: »

If you mean the nazi swastika, as opposed to the Eastern swastika, that is a sign of hatred and tyranny.

The cake in question was a sign for equality and love.

Do you see the difference?

so its ok to pick and choose based on personal opinion?

dxhound2005 · 10-07-2014 12:52pm

old hippy wrote: »

It does make them homophobic & bigoted. They are refusing equality to people who want to get married.

The right to be bigoted for no other reason than irrational prejudice, you mean?

Equality is coming. Prepare yourselves.

Equality is not coming in the North. It is a very live political issue but the majority are against. In this country it is also a very live political issue and the outcome will be decided by referendum and equality will only come by the will of the majority. Will you call the people who vote NO bigoted and homophobic?

Equality is certainly not coming in most of the rest of the world. Marriage is still recognised by the majority of countries and being only between one man and one woman.

gozunda · 10-07-2014 12:57pm

bodice ripper wrote: »

I refuse to tattoo swastikas, wolfangels etc. Am I wrong to do that?

Context is everything. The bakery representative refusal was stated as follows:

"This order was at odds with our beliefs and in contradiction with what the Bible teaches".

And they did in the knowledge that the order was for a LGBT event.

No mention of the message. This is what has got them into trouble. Simple

old hippy · 10-07-2014 1:00pm

bodice ripper wrote: »

so its ok to pick and choose based on personal opinion?

One is a message of hatred and persecution & one is a message of tolerance and love.

The bakery is Christian, they won't promote the message of tolerance and love because it's part of their belief system to discriminate against gay people.

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Equality is not coming in the North. It is a very live political issue but the majority are against. In this country it is also a very live political issue and the outcome will be decided by referendum and equality will only come by the will of the majority. Will you call the people who vote NO bigoted and homophobic?

Equality is certainly not coming in most of the rest of the world. Marriage is still recognised by the majority of countries and being only between one man and one woman.

Yes, I will call the people who vote NO bigoted and homophobic. And selfish. There's no rational reason to vote that way.

Equality is coming. If not this year, then the following year or the year after.

gozunda · 10-07-2014 1:03pm

kunst nugget wrote: »

That does seem completely wrong to me as well. If that was the case, I'd go into a bakery and ask them to make a cake of Jimmy Savile fondling a corpse and then sue when they refused to make it.

You do know necrophillia is illegal? Or are you just sick?

dxhound2005 · 10-07-2014 1:04pm

gozunda wrote: »

You do know necrophillia is illegal? Or are you just sick?

Same Sex Marriage is also illegal.

Jester252 · 10-07-2014 1:07pm

Is it not also discrimination to force someone to do something against their religious beliefs?

Donkey Oaty · 10-07-2014 1:07pm

gozunda wrote: »

You do know necrophillia is illegal?

Handy guide for necro-tourists:

http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/16/necrophilia-is-legal-in-these-states

dxhound2005 · 10-07-2014 1:11pm

old hippy wrote: »

One is a message of hatred and persecution & one is a message of tolerance and love.

The bakery is Christian, they won't promote the message of tolerance and love because it's part of their belief system to discriminate against gay people.

Yes, I will call the people who vote NO bigoted and homophobic. And selfish. There's no rational reason to vote that way.

Equality is coming. If not this year, then the following year or the year after.

One reason is that same sex couples cannot ever produce children without the parentage involving someone else outside of the relationship. Which could have a bearing on inheritance rights. And is an argument that same sex marriage cannot be exactly the same as man woman marriage. Whether it is a rational argument depends on ones point of view and does not make someone homophobic.

gozunda · 10-07-2014 1:12pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Same Sex Marriage is also illegal.

And you are equating marriage between
Two consenting adults (Currently an issue of civil rights) with a sexual attack on a corpse??

Boy you are one sick puppy

osarusan · 10-07-2014 1:14pm

gozunda wrote: »

And you are equating marriage between
Two consenting adults (Currently an issue of civil rights) with a sexual attack on a corpse??

Boy you are one sick puppy

Another strawman. You do love them so.

Donkey Oaty · 10-07-2014 1:15pm

gozunda wrote: »

And you are equating marriage between
Two consenting adults (Currently an issue of civil rights) with a sexual attack on a corpse??

One is de rigueur, the other is de rigor mortis.

Gay Cake Controversy!

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