Garth Brooks concerts cancelled - **READ FIRST POST FOR MOD NOTES**

cournioni

AngryHippie wrote: »

So the retail precinct investment in Dundrum itself had nothing to do with that ?

I haven't seen the cycle lanes, nor read much about them, but in most parts of the world they are seen as being relatively progressive and as a general improvement to urban centers and road safety in the area.

I'm also of the opinion that you give his position credit for having too much power, the processes are still subjected to feasibility, delivery and outcome examination and design procedures, its not just like he wake up one morning with a pencil and a good idea. There are layers of approvals and studies done where public expenditure is concerned, and the fact that he doesn't seem to be ignoring these is now problematic because of some music fanatics ?

It's time for you to educate yourself on what has been happening in Dun Laoghaire and what incentives Keegan made for motorists to get into DL and do their shopping. I think you'll find he is in favour of booting motorists out of the area which is suicide economically. To suit his agenda.

I'm well aware of the procedures that take place and the processes involved which is why I pointed out that there is somebody involved in this process with a vested interest in what happens with these gigs, Jim Keogan Executive Manager of Planning and Economic Development. How can these two be involved in such a major decision?

One has shown himself to suit his own agenda, the other has a property "in the shadow" of Croke Park. Again, I must point out to you Keegan's letter to committee members on the issue suggesting that GAA members should stay away from the meeting because they may have vested interest in the concerts. While allowing a member of this own team with his own vested interest in the Croke Park area to be involved with the planning process!!

Surely through all of your bias towards the cancellations of these concerts, you can see that this above all things is wrong.

Pwindedd

goz83 wrote: »

FYP

Pretty much. Tickets were sold with an expectation that the concerts would "as usual" go ahead as planned. But, no, the council decides to act the maggot for one of the most significant concerts to be played at the stadium. Whether you're for, or against Brooks, is not the issue here. 400,000 tickets were sold in record time and this was a boost for the economy as a whole.

As I understand it, the council took their sweet ass time on this and decided not to overturn the decision, even though the primary reasons for refusing the licenses for the two final concerts were seen to be a conflict of interest (in the case of a certain person having family living beside croker) and a farcical number of bogus objections, including forged signatures. If they were able to undo their decision and allow 4 out of 5 concerts, then why not just push the envelope and allow the other concert to go ahead?

Once again, Ireland is seen as backwards.

Exhibit 732 in the people vs Common Sense !!

Enough... Make it stop....ban me or summat...plurrrrleeeeeese.

cournioni

bumper234 wrote: »

Because traffic disruption to the area on week nights would have been one of the (if not the) main factors in the decision process, how would Keegan et al know that the gardai think this wouldn't be an issue if they didn't know that they felt this way?

I don't know is the answer to that. I'd imagine the Gardai were consulted during the planning process but then again, with what has gone on between the DCC and the promoter, I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't consulted at all.

AngryHippie

cournioni wrote: »

It's time for you to educate yourself on what has been happening in Dun Laoghaire and what incentives Keegan made for motorists to get into DL and do their shopping. I think you'll find he is in favour of booting motorists out of the area which is suicide economically. To suit his agenda.

I'm well aware of the procedures that take place and the processes involved which is why I pointed out that there is somebody involved in this process with a vested interest in what happens with these gigs, Jim Keogan Executive Manager of Planning and Economic Development. How can these two be involved in such a major decision?

One has shown himself to suit his own agenda, the other has a property "in the shadow" of Croke Park. Again, I must point out to you Keegan's letter to committee members on the issue suggesting that GAA members should stay away from the meeting because they may have vested interest in the concerts. While allowing a member of this own team with his own vested interest in the Croke Park area to be involved with the planning process!!

Surely through all of your bias towards the cancellations of these concerts, you can see that this above all things is wrong.

There is a possibility that members involved with the planning team may not have been entirely impartial.
These decisions aren't made by an individual, the have specific criteria that have to be satisfied before granting permission is even possible. If the application failed to satisfy any of these, then partiality does not come into it.
Again, I will reiterate, that the concerts were cancelled by GB, not by DCC. DCC did grant permission for some concerts, the ones that satisfied the required criteria for a valid application, the ones that fell outside of that were doomed, regardless of anyone's bias. Granting the permission would likely have ended in an acrimonious legal challenge and the same end result.
As to whether he"allows' a member of his team to do anything, other than his job is only speculation, considering how difficult it is to "make" or "stop" a senior civil servant from doing anything.

secman

A very good article on the whole affair in the indo today, pretty much sums up the issue as I saw it too. Plain light of day facts, Brooks and Aiken not coming out too good from the summation.

Unfortunately the victims are the fans.

secman

cournioni

AngryHippie wrote: »

There is a possibility that members involved with the planning team may not have been entirely impartial.
These decisions aren't made by an individual, the have specific criteria that have to be satisfied before granting permission is even possible. If the application failed to satisfy any of these, then partiality does not come into it.
Again, I will reiterate, that the concerts were cancelled by GB, not by DCC. DCC did grant permission for some concerts, the ones that satisfied the required criteria for a valid application, the ones that fell outside of that were doomed, regardless of anyone's bias. Granting the permission would likely have ended in an acrimonious legal challenge and the same end result.
As to whether he"allows' a member of his team to do anything, other than his job is only speculation, considering how difficult it is to "make" or "stop" a senior civil servant from doing anything.

I'm well aware that Brooks cancelled the concerts. I'm not interested in Garth Brooks, I'm interested in the DCC members that have cost this country millions. At the end of the day, the decisions made are discretionary, the criteria involved will have been similar to any other festival in the country, but the decision is discretionary. At the end of it all, as I have pointed out, two individuals whose involvement in these concerts were questionable to say the least had a huge say in it's result. You cannot deny that.

bumper234

cournioni wrote: »

I don't know is the answer to that. I'd imagine the Gardai were consulted during the planning process but then again, with what has gone on between the DCC and the promoter, I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't consulted at all.

So your claims of

cournioni wrote: »

I'm all for people obeying rules, but what rules were in place other than Keegan and the DCC's discretion? They took into account that objections were filed in their decision, but how many of them were forged? They took access restrictions, traffic disruption, illegal parking and potential antisocial behaviour into account despite Gardai statements to suggest that this would not be an issue.

This cannot just be ignored. Especially when the majority of residents were in favour of the event taking place - whose views were not taken into account when the decision had been made.

Are pretty much false.

bobmalooka

cournioni wrote: »

I'm well aware that Brooks cancelled the concerts. I'm not interested in Garth Brooks, I'm interested in the DCC members that have cost this country millions. At the end of the day, the decisions made are discretionary, the criteria involved will have been similar to any other festival in the country, but the decision is discretionary. At the end of it all, as I have pointed out, two individuals whose involvement in these concerts were questionable to say the least had a huge say in it's result. You cannot deny that.

Once again, they have cost Dublin millions not the country.

bumper234

cournioni wrote: »

I'm well aware that Brooks cancelled the concerts. I'm not interested in Garth Brooks, I'm interested in the DCC members that have cost this country millions. At the end of the day, the decisions made are discretionary, the criteria involved will have been similar to any other festival in the country, but the decision is discretionary. At the end of it all, as I have pointed out, two individuals whose involvement in these concerts were questionable to say the least had a huge say in it's result. You cannot deny that.

But making decisions on crowd control/traffic/anti social behavior would be UNIQUE to each venue and therefore what's ok for one venue would be ludicrous for another"

muddypaws

cournioni wrote: »

It's time for you to educate yourself on what has been happening in Dun Laoghaire and what incentives Keegan made for motorists to get into DL and do their shopping. I think you'll find he is in favour of booting motorists out of the area which is suicide economically. To suit his agenda.

I'm well aware of the procedures that take place and the processes involved which is why I pointed out that there is somebody involved in this process with a vested interest in what happens with these gigs, Jim Keogan Executive Manager of Planning and Economic Development. How can these two be involved in such a major decision?

One has shown himself to suit his own agenda, the other has a property "in the shadow" of Croke Park. Again, I must point out to you Keegan's letter to committee members on the issue suggesting that GAA members should stay away from the meeting because they may have vested interest in the concerts. While allowing a member of this own team with his own vested interest in the Croke Park area to be involved with the planning process!!

Surely through all of your bias towards the cancellations of these concerts, you can see that this above all things is wrong.

Due to past dealings with Keegan, you obviously have a vested interest, and cannot be objective, so I think you should excuse yourself from this thread :P

Happyman42

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller wrote: »

Standing his ground? :P

The guy did so much jumping from one spot to the other, that I'm bloody certain, were he to enter the world hopscotch championships.. he'd be a fecking shoe-in.

He admitted that he did wrong in offering 4 concerts (took the flak himself and didn't blame anybody else) and that he was under intense pressure to change the decision (I notice the members of PAC were not too interested in who was applying pressure, I wonder why?)
Once again, Aitken/Brooks blew that offer out of the water, which makes me believe that they where insisting on 5 all along, despite what they where being told. They thought they could pressure a decision but pushed too far.

They (Keegan & Keoghan) openly said that they thought parts of the legislation needed review and very clearly and professionally led us through the process and how they came to a decision.
Despite concerns about bias (shown quite clearly in some of the questioning, Dooley and the guy who wasn't listening to what was being said and persisted on putting his slant on it) they presented themselves for the PAC and answered questions put to them. Which is more than can be said for you.

*p.s. Anybody know when Aitken/GAA are in today? It will be interesting to see how much of a grilling they get and how many leading questions they get.

nssimpson

If Garth will go until the very last minute does that mean it could still actually happen if Garth withdrew his crazy ultimatum and picked up the feckin phone to tell ticketmaster and the rest that he'll do the freakin shows? I'm a huge GB fan but I think it's absolutely disgusting that he's refusing to do any concerts because he'd rather upset all his fans rather than 2/5th's of them.

Plus he could have easily compensated those fans by just giving them first pick at his world tour tickets and put them in a special golden circle at no extra cost. Since he never normally does that it would be a real treat for them and even though my ticket was for Saturday I'd actually be slightly envious of them (so he could offer the 3/5 fans that as an alternative and find a solution everyone was happy with). So many ways around this but he's been so petulant and it's now too late because of his stubbornness!

At least he gets to do his paintballing weekend after all!

Happyman42

muddypaws wrote: »

Due to past dealings with Keegan, you obviously have a vested interest, and cannot be objective, so I think you should excuse yourself from this thread :P

It's gas, the only thing I can find about Dun L are the usual NIMBY objections to and huffing and puffing about modern buildings that you will find anywhere in the world.
Seems DL NIMBY's should be listened to but not CP ones.
You couldn't invent it.

nxbyveromdwjpg

Happyman42 wrote: »

It's gas, the only thing I can find about Dun L are the usual NIMBY objections to and huffing and puffing about modern buildings that you will find anywhere in the world.
Seems DL NIMBY's should be listened to but not CP ones.
You couldn't invent it.

Or to put it another way, the DL ones were ignored by Keegan but the CP ones, on the complete contrary, had to have their demands appeased.
Why was that I wonder.
You couldn't invent it.

Calina

cournioni wrote: »

I'm well aware that Brooks cancelled the concerts. I'm not interested in Garth Brooks, I'm interested in the DCC members that have cost this country millions.

You are aware that the concerts which were licensed were cancelled by Garth Brooks and you're not interested in that contribution to the fiasco?

It's fascinating to watch this debate actually - in particularly how many people feel the country, and the city of Dublin especially, feel that they should just lie down in the face of an ultimatum.

Seriously, are you telling me that if your partner said to you "my way or no way buster", you'd just accept that?

Ultimata are the sign of an unbalanced relationship. Quite frankly the minute Garth came up with 5 concerts or none, the city should have just walked away.

My absolute favourite artist of all time is Jean-Michel Jarre and he had a concert licence refused at 12 days' notice in 1988 in London and that was following months of consultation. I had a ticket for that once in a life time concert and I'll be blunt, I doubt there is much that Garth might have planned that would have topped that concert. Jarre sat down and negotiated two concerts instead of one (because scale/safety was a key issue) and ran both of them two weeks' later. I went then instead.

In terms of getting something to happen for the fans, he put his heart and soul into reaching a compromise with the council concerned including rescheduling the concert to a few weeks later and agreeing to move to another site if necessary. He didn't say "You let me run my huge concert or else I'm not coming". The reschedule and rework, done in a matter of weeks, cost Jarre a fortune. But it hasn't stopped him going to back to London to tour in the meantime. I've seen him in Wembley and I know other people have seen him in the O2 there.

Tell me, can you honestly say that Garth Brooks was working in the best interests of his fans by comparison?

bumper234

nm wrote: »

Or to put it another way, the DL ones were ignored by Keegan but the CP ones, on the complete contrary, had to have their demands appeased.
Why was that I wonder.
You couldn't invent it.

When was the last time a library had 80'000 people trawl past it for 5 nights in a row causing massive disruption to a very large sector of a city?

nxbyveromdwjpg

I'm wondering if he will include Ireland at a later date or is this the last we'll ever hear of GB, if so I expect it'd be announced tomorrow so TM/Aikens have the option of leaving fans with tickets 'still valid' if that was preferred by the buyer.

Happyman42

nm wrote: »

Or to put it another way, the DL ones were ignored by Keegan but the CP ones, on the complete contrary, had to have their demands appeased.
Why was that I wonder.
You couldn't invent it.

They didn't have their demands appeased, they where landed with a balanced decision (in the eyes of DCC) of 3 out of 5 concerts. They where very unhappy about that, but more than likely would have sucked it up again.

This nonsense was all caused by Brooks ultimatum and subsequent cancellation.

filbert the fox

Happyman42 wrote: »

He admitted that he did wrong in offering 4 concerts (took the flak himself and didn't blame anybody else) and that he was under intense pressure to change the decision (I notice the members of PAC were not too interested in who was applying pressure, I wonder why?)
Once again, Aitken/Brooks blew that offer out of the water, which makes me believe that they where insisting on 5 all along, despite what they where being told. They thought they could pressure a decision but pushed too far.

They (Keegan & Keoghan) openly said that they thought parts of the legislation needed review and very clearly and professionally led us through the process and how they came to a decision.
Despite concerns about bias (shown quite clearly in some of the questioning, Dooley and the guy who wasn't listening to what was being said and persisted on putting his slant on it) they presented themselves for the PAC and answered questions put to them. Which is more than can be said for you.

*p.s. Anybody know when Aitken/GAA are in today? It will be interesting to see how much of a grilling they get and how many leading questions they get.

The most effective way of highlighting bad legislation is to enforce it rigorously ....

nxbyveromdwjpg

bumper234 wrote: »

When was the last time a library had 80'000 people trawl past it for 5 nights in a row causing massive disruption to a very large sector of a city?

This might seem a bit out there evidently, but there are other reasons for objection.

Why apply one rule by the letter of the law to one group, and not apply it to another?

Happyman42

nm wrote: »

I'm wondering if he will include Ireland at a later date or is this the last we'll ever hear of GB, if so I expect it'd be announced tomorrow so TM/Aikens have the option of leaving fans with tickets 'still valid' if that was preferred by the buyer.

They better have their t's crossed and their i's dotted, because I for one don't think the guy should be let within sight of landfall here.

bumper234

nm wrote: »

This might seem a bit out there evidently, but there are other reasons for objection.

Why apply one rule by the letter of the law to one group, and not apply it to another?

But the main reason for Brooks only getting 3 of his wished for 5 concerts was because of the massive disruption an extra 80k people would cause to a large area of a busy city on week nights. Why is this so hard for some people to understand this? Have any of you ever been near Croke park on a normal week night and seen the traffic?

Dan_Solo

What I find particularly hilarious here is that GB fans flit between "conflict of interest" regarding DCC members and "would have made millions for Dublin" without even the merest blip on their irony meter.

nxbyveromdwjpg

Happyman42 wrote: »

They where very unhappy about that, but more than likely would have sucked it up again.

Does Brian Duff know about this? I thought you and the rest of the GAA underdogs had funded him and his new suit (to the tune of 15k overnight, which is apparently totally normal in those circles).
It would seem he at least was instructed not to wasn't going to stop until all 5 were gone.

nxbyveromdwjpg

bumper234 wrote: »

But the main reason for Brooks only getting 3 of his wished for 5 concerts was because of the massive disruption an extra 80k people would cause to a large area of a busy city on week nights. Why is this so hard for some people to understand this? Have any of you ever been near Croke park on a normal week night and seen the traffic?

I do understand it, I'm not saying there wouldn't be traffic. I'm saying the cost of the cancellation was not worth it. It was 5 days, it's a stadium, it happens (or it doesn't in this case now).

I'm also saying that if Keegan was so by the letter of the law in this case (traffic) why did he ignore the DL residents and have no problem pushing through the library there in the face of their objections and in contravention of sections of the Planning and Development Acts.

bumper234

nm wrote: »

I do understand it, I'm not saying there wouldn't be traffic. I'm saying the cost of the cancellation was not worth it. It was 5 days, it's a stadium, it happens (or it doesn't in this case now).

You may not think so but then you don't live there.

I'm also saying that if Keegan was so by the letter of the law in this case (traffic) why did he ignore the DL residents and have no problem pushing through the library there in the face of their objections and in contravention of sections of the Planning and Development Acts.

How much traffic disruption does the library cause in DL on any given day?

nxbyveromdwjpg

Happyman42 wrote: »

They better have their t's crossed and their i's dotted, because I for one don't think the guy should be let within sight of landfall here.

Fine by me, could see the Aviva next year though. If GB agreed, which he probably wouldn't.

Happyman42

nm wrote: »

Does Brian Duff know about this? I thought you and the rest of the GAA underdogs had funded him and his new suit (to the tune of 15k overnight, which is apparently totally normal in those circles).
It would seem he at least was instructed not to wasn't going to stop until all 5 were gone.

And Brian Duff was representing a residents committee as well now?

The GAA where joint promoters of this, Brian Duff was spearheading a challenge from within that organisation. :rolleyes:

nxbyveromdwjpg

bumper234 wrote: »

You may not think so but then you don't live there.

I know, I chose not to live beside the biggest stadium in the country.
If I did, I'd expect it a few days of the year.

bumper234 wrote: »

How much traffic disruption does the library cause in DL on any given day?

It has nothing to do with traffic. As I've said already, there are other reasons for objection.

Cantremember

Ah yes, the pattern is clear: the euphoria, the disappointment, the outrage, the bluster, the blame game, the moving on and for the typical minority, the retreat to the long grass.