Israel bombs 160 sites in Gaza overnight. Mod Warnings in First Post.

BlaasForRafa

FTA69 wrote: »

Oh sure that's grand. Unfortunately though, the settlements are a major part of the issue here and you can't just neatly sideline that with a glib comment. You espouse the narrative that Israel is "defending itself" but seem to ignore completely the significance of the settlement project. The Palestinians are literally having their country stolen away from the piece by piece in front of their very eyes. Do you have any idea how Palestinians feel about that like? To be herded into squalid refugee camp while a load of foreigners live happily on land that was once yours a few short years ago?

Considering Israel is aggressively pursuing a policy of apartheid in East Jerusalem as well as stealing and annexing whatever it wants in the West Bank; then all comments about self-defence become null and void. The fact you might happen to disagree with the settlements on a superficial level doesn't change that.

I'm sure it would be nice for you if everyone had black or white opinions, if everyone was easily painted into a corner it would be nice and easy but life isn't like that. It is possible to have complex opinions and go beyond that "Israel is always right" or "Israel is always wrong" stuff.

Israel made a dreadful choice post 1967, Eshkol knew it was a mistake but ailing as he was he left the hawks take the initiative and governments since then have continually compounded that mistake year after year. The Jordanians didn't cover themselves in glory either by abandoning the West Back and not claiming it back through negotiation.

My disapproval of the settlements is fundamental not superficial but if you choose not to believe that, that's up to you. Disapproving of the settlements and settlers and acknowledging Israel's right to defend itself from attacks out of Gaza are not incompatible no matter how much you'd like them to be.

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I'm sure it would be nice for you if everyone had black or white opinions, if everyone was easily painted into a corner it would be nice and easy but life isn't like that. It is possible to have complex opinions and go beyond that "Israel is always right" or "Israel is always wrong" stuff.

Israel made a dreadful choice post 1967, Eshkol knew it was a mistake but ailing as he was he left the hawks take the initiative and governments since then have continually compounded that mistake year after year. The Jordanians didn't cover themselves in glory either by abandoning the West Back and not claiming it back through negotiation.

.

They ceded negotiating rights to the PLO/Fatah. Having become almost a minority in their own state overnight, the prospect of becoming an outright one would have been a factor in their decision.

WakeUp

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Hamas is an Islamic fundamentalist organisation with the same ideology as the Taliban and Isis.
They seek to conquer and destroy Israel and to murder all the Jews in Israel

For all Hamas faults I don't think the above is true . These rockets being fired into Israel ( which I've stated I'm not down with ) their better rockets let's say are being fired in very small salvos - Hamas from their point of view need to respond and be seen to be doing something. Though I think deep down they don't actually want to level a high density population area - and the devastating Israeli response that would bring - and are happy enough for the iron dome system to be intercepting them which is why they only fire a few at a time. If like you say their goal was to kill all Jews or whatever they would be attempting to defeat Israeli air defence. to do that you need to overload it . and that obviously means a sustained and corordinated barrage in one direction so far this hasn't happened which would indicate something to me. Iron dome specs and performance specs are classified it appears capable of standing up to sporadic and small numbered salvos though it's yet to be seen if it could withstand a sustained barrage of better spec rockets. Meanwhile in Iraq Isis have got their hands on some 80 odd pounds of uranium from Mosul university how in gods name that stuff was just laying around there I do not know . I don't see Hamas having the ability nor the intention of lifting something like that and doing something with it. Those crazy Isis jihadis on the other hand.

Conas

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Hamas is an Islamic fundamentalist organisation with the same ideology as the Taliban and Isis. They seek to conquer and destroy Israel and to murder all the Jews in Israel and in the entire world. Check out their charter and see for yourself if you don't believe me
They also seek the establishment of a global Islamic Caliphate.
They believe all infidels - Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists etc should convert or die.
There can be no negotiation with these animals.
Israel should kill them all.

That's quiet a conspiracy theory that you have there. It might work on the minds of Americans though. But the rest of the world don't buy into this global Islamic conspiracy stuff. There are over 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide, they aren't all terrorists.

Seems to me, it's the other way around, Israel are looking for any excuse possible to conquer all of the Holy Land. The Israeli goverment were worried that Palestinian unity would bring peace, and now they've had their excuse to smash it into a thousand pieces, and boy god they have taken it. Israel doesn't want peace. All of the conflict across the Middle East plays right into their hands. But like i said earlier in this thread, all the damage that they do will be paid for by the American taxpayer.

Manic Moran

WakeUp wrote: »

For all Hamas faults I don't think the above is true . These rockets being fired into Israel ( which I've stated I'm not down with ) their better rockets let's say are being fired in very small salvos - Hamas from their point of view need to respond and be seen to be doing something.

It's gone beyond that stage, though. If 'response' was their goal, then their point is already made. Continued rocketeering at this point, unless out of sheer bloody-mindedness, only has two possible realistic goals. One is to actually kill Israelis (I suspect that the mass barrage you mention isn't tried simply for logistical, not objective reasons), and the other is to goad a response which will garner the sympathy of the international community. Neither will bode well for the other Palestinians.

Brown Bomber

Conas wrote: »

. But like i said earlier in this thread, all the damage that they do will be paid for by the American taxpayer.

Here it is in action. It's a lesson in how to commit mass-murder indiscriminately.

https://vine.co/v/MPUbqH5ehAZ

Here is list of the dead so far: http://palestinefrommyeyes.wordpress.com/2014/07/09/gazaunderattack-stop-the-palestinian-bloodshed-names-and-ages-of-palestinians-who-fell-victim-to-israel-s-ongoing-attack-on-gaza-palestine/

Brown Bomber

Manic Moran wrote: »

It's gone beyond that stage, though. If 'response' was their goal, then their point is already made. Continued rocketeering at this point, unless out of sheer bloody-mindedness, only has two possible realistic goals. One is to actually kill Israelis (I suspect that the mass barrage you mention isn't tried simply for logistical, not objective reasons), and the other is to goad a response which will garner the sympathy of the international community. Neither will bode well for the other Palestinians.

You are based in the US. I'm guessing you have or had some military involvement. How would you react personally if Danville, California was occupied and placed under siege by terrorists who were killing your fellow Danvillians indiscriminately? How would you want your local government/militia members to react?

Harry Angstrom

It's about time the world woke up to what's happening. Hamas fire rockets into Israel, knowing the Israelis will retaliate ten-fold. Cue Israeli rockets fired into Gaza. Cue the pictures of mutilated bodies. Cue the anti-Israeli sentiment. Cue the sympathy towards the Palestinians. It's like a fcuking broken record at this stage.

Conas

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

It's about time the world woke up to what's happening. Hamas fire rockets into Israel, knowing the Israelis will retaliate ten-fold. Cue Israeli rockets fired into Gaza. Cue the pictures of mutilated bodies. Cue the anti-Israeli sentiment. Cue the sympathy towards the Palestinians. It's like a fcuking broken record at this stage.

If those picture were of mutilated Israel's the whole world would be outraged the media would run with it non-stop. But since it's the inferior Palestinians, ah what the hell, they deserved it, isn't that right Harry? We lose one, we'll kill a thousand of their women and children as revenge.

The world is waking up to the fact that the Americans, and Israeli's have a superiority complex, in which they think of themselves as special, and look upon everyone else as a piece of dirt.

Harry Angstrom

Conas wrote: »

If those picture were of mutilated Israel's the whole world would be outraged the media would run with it non-stop. But since it's the inferior Palestinians, ah what the hell, they deserved it, isn't that right Harry? We lose one, we'll kill a thousand of their women and children as revenge.

The world is waking up to the fact that the Americans, and Israeli's have a superiority complex, in which they think of themselves as special, and look upon everyone else as a piece of dirt.

Wow. We must be living in a parallel universe, because all I can see and hear at the moment is anti-Israeli sentiment which is bordering on the anti-Semitic. Hamas know full well that if they launch rocket attacks against the Israelis, that the Israelis will fire back, and kill many times more than Hamas are killing, simply because they have far more firepower. Hamas are not stupid and they know they will garner plenty of sympathy throughout the world.

Put it this way, if a bunch of Loyalist paramilitaries were constantly launching rocket attacks on the people of Louth, Cavan, Monaghan or Donegal, would it not be reasonable to expect the Irish government to hit them back??

Nodin

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

It's about time the world woke up to what's happening. ............

40 years of a brutal occupation?

Harry Angstrom

Nodin wrote: »

40 years of a brutal occupation?

40 years of Arab terrorism?

Black Swan

Conas wrote: »

The world is waking up to the fact that the Americans, and Israeli's have a superiority complex, in which they think of themselves as special, and look upon everyone else as a piece of dirt.

MOD REMINDER found earlier in the OP of this thread and in post #120:

Dr Galen wrote: »

This is a Politics forum, not Liveline.

Certain standards of debate are expected, and will be enforced. Your posts must contribute to debate, not derail it or drag it into mob chanting. There's been a serious decrease in the signal to noise ratio in the forum recently, and that trend requires reversal.

If your posts consists of little more than a statement that some group of people or other are bad people... think long and hard before pressing "submit", because we'll be treating that as trolling from here on in.

Nodin

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

40 years of Arab terrorism?

Palestinian resistance to a program of colonisation internationally recognised as illegal. Denied recourse to the usual non-violent methods, it's hard to see what else they might do. Perhaps you have some suggestions?

Harry Angstrom

Nodin wrote: »

Palestinian resistance to a program of colonisation internationally recognised as illegal. Denied recourse to the usual non-violent methods, it's hard to see what else they might do. Perhaps you have some suggestions?

Ceasefire from Hamas would be a start.

Manic Moran

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You are based in the US. I'm guessing you have or had some military involvement. How would you react personally if Danville, California was occupied and placed under siege by terrorists who were killing your fellow Danvillians indiscriminately? How would you want your local government/militia members to react?

I'm not not entirely sure who you're referring to here as who in this analogy.

For all the issues with the settlements, if that's what you're alluding to, they appear not to have been the triggering factor in the current round of unpleasantness. What broke the dam was the issue of the four killed youths. It is unlikely that whoever killed the three Israeli ones will be brought to justice, the killers of the Palestinian kid apparently were caught. There is nothing more to be gained by continued rocket attacks on this matter, the only practical thing they are doing is attracting Israeli military attention, the sort of attention which is hazardous both to your health and those around you.

If Hamas want to take military action in response to the settlement issue, it occurs that they might be best served responding in a manner which makes the obvious association, such as launching rockets at the construction crews and otherwise making life unpleasant for the settlers.

Harry Angstrom

Manic Moran wrote: »

If Hamas want to take military action in response to the settlement issue, it occurs that they might be best served responding in a manner which makes the obvious association, such as launching rockets at the construction crews and otherwise making life unpleasant for the settlers.

Spot on. I would consider myself to have generally left-leaning beliefs, but I am absolutely sick and tired of the way that the Left latch on to Hamas/Palestine as if it's the default way they should be pre-programmed to think.
The fact is that Hamas know exactly what will happen when they launch rocket attacks on Israel. They are just as culpable as the Israelis when it comes to the deaths of innocent Palestinians. I can't believe that so-called "intelligent" people can't grasp this reality, but it's far too easy to paint the Israelis as the "baddies" and the Palestinians as the "goodies". Wake the fcuk up and think for yourselves for a change.

SeaBreezes

So, let me get this straight. 3 teenagers disappeared in the west bank. These kids were illegally farming land which had been bulldozed in the last 5 years and the original farmers kicked off, with the farms given to these 3 kids. These three kids dressed and wore clothes that easily identified them as orthodox jew, and to get to their illegal settlement, had to hitchhike through 3 local towns in gaza. Past all those people who have been dispossed and whos farms they now farm. And these stupid kids hitchhiked through these towns regularly. Im actually surprised the kids were not harmed long before. Its akin to 3 orange marchers, in full regalia, marching down the most nationalist streets at the height of the troubles on their own. Dont get me wrong, I disagree with ANY violence, and feel so sorry that their lives ended as they did. But when reading the articles I read that 400 'suspects' were rounded up and 'interrogated'. Seriously? Thats an entire town and not an investigation. Also what I read in one tiny article, is THEN Israel fired at known rocket launcher sites. The palestinian boy was burned alive and suddenly we have a massacre. Anyone who can condone the killing of children for ANY reason should be deeply ashamed of themselves. Im trying to see a peaceful way forward here, but I cannot. Israel should be ashamed. America also. There is no excuse for the continued carnage and suffering of these kids. The blockades, the genocide. I just dont get it. Chain and starve and beat an animal, and you will just get a more dangerous, angrier animal. From what I can see of Israels policies, that is what they are doing to palestinians. How can they ever expect mutual respect and peace when they never give it a chance? And I believe the average Israeli is not comfortable with what is happening now too. Its so awfully sad, and we stand by and let it happen

FTA69

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Spot on. I would consider myself to have generally left-leaning beliefs, but I am absolutely sick and tired of the way that the Left latch on to Hamas/Palestine as if it's the default way they should be pre-programmed to think.
The fact is that Hamas know exactly what will happen when they launch rocket attacks on Israel. They are just as culpable as the Israelis when it comes to the deaths of innocent Palestinians. I can't believe that so-called "intelligent" people can't grasp this reality, but it's far too easy to paint the Israelis as the "baddies" and the Palestinians as the "goodies". Wake the fcuk up and think for yourselves for a change.

Hamas could stop firing rockets tomorrow and the Israeli program of dispossession would continue unabated. Land in the West Bank would continue to be seized and colonised, they'd still preside over an apartheid system in East Jerusalem, they'd still encircle the West Bank with an illegal barrier and Gaza would remain blockaded. What Israel is pursuing is a policy of Greater Israel wherein they are trying to strangle the Palestinian people out of existence. This is the plain fact of the matter. I don't see how anyone can side with a process of colonisation or justify pounding an unarmed and poor people with F16s. You might think you're being ferociously independent minded for justifying Israel's policies but in reality you're just siding with things that are plain wrong.

Some people on this thread are trying to portray Gaza as a belligerent nation-state on Israel's doorstep attacking it relentlessly and without provocation; in reality it's an open air prison-camp that is being slowly suffocated and left to fester. Similarly Gaza is part of wider Palestine, it is yet another example of what the Palestinians as a people must put up with. Trying to portray the settlement issue and the colonisation of Jerusalem as being irrelevant to the conflict at the moment is like telling someone in Tipperary that what goes on politically in Dublin has nothing at all to do with them.

Nodin

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Ceasefire from Hamas would be a start.

Why would it be? Fatah have been on ceasefire for years now and all they have for their trouble are more settlers and more settlements.

Gringo180

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

40 years of Arab terrorism?

Israel was founded on Zionist and Jewish terrorism, they have killed indiscriminately which includes British soldiers and United Nation representatives. There former prime ministers have blood on there hands, Yitsak Shamir later Israeli prime minister personally assassinated the U.N envoy to Palestine Count Bernadotte of Sweden in 1948. Menachem Begin later Israeli prime minister killed 100 civilians in the Deir Yassin massacre also in 1948. The Jewish terror gangs also hung 2 British Soldiers in the orange groves. I wonder have you ever heard of the King David hotel bombing where 93 British civil servants perished, an act that was carried out by the Irgun gang.

Conas

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Wow. We must be living in a parallel universe, because all I can see and hear at the moment is anti-Israeli sentiment which is bordering on the anti-Semitic. Hamas know full well that if they launch rocket attacks against the Israelis, that the Israelis will fire back, and kill many times more than Hamas are killing, simply because they have far more firepower. Hamas are not stupid and they know they will garner plenty of sympathy throughout the world.

Put it this way, if a bunch of Loyalist paramilitaries were constantly launching rocket attacks on the people of Louth, Cavan, Monaghan or Donegal, would it not be reasonable to expect the Irish government to hit them back??

You see you are using keywords, you are too influenced by the likes of the Anti-Defamation League, and Jewish film directors like Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay, who have filled your mind with a lot of powerful imagery, which is built around keywords antisemitism, hate, bigtory, terrorists etc Those are keywords. Just remember the Arabs are semites aswell.

If Israel wasn't violating International Law by building settlements on land that doesn't belong to them, denying these people their basic human rights. Warmongering against nearly every nation in the Middle East. Trying to start wars and getting another country to do the fighting for them, maybe all this wouldn't be happening.

But as JFK said in 1939, the Jewish mentality of 'total domination' as he put it, means this is never going to end.

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

Why would it be? Fatah have been on ceasefire for years now and all they have for their trouble are more settlers and more settlements.

How is launching rockets at Israel a viable strategy to advance their goals?

brimal

Conas wrote: »

But as JFK said in 1939, the Jewish mentality of 'total domination' as he put it, means this is never going to end.

Source please.

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

How is launching rockets in Israel a viable strategy to advance their goals?

They think it is, and as they are in the territory not being colonised simply because its too much trouble, you can see why they think that.

Manic Moran

Nodin wrote: »

They think it is, and as they are in the territory not being colonised simply because its too much trouble, you can see why they think that.

They probably could take a leaf from Hezbullah's book. Two of the 13 "principles of war" which Hezbullah developed were "The population is a treasure-nurture it" and "Hurt the enemy and then stop before he abandons restraint." The latter is part of the reason that the 2006 incursion was a shock to Hezbullah. They honestly were trying to stay on the other side of the "provoke significant Israeli action" line. The other difference is that Hezbullah were also somewhat in a position to defend against said Israeli action if it happened.

Hamas seems to have a little less care for its own population, and seems to be actively goading the Israelis into larger action at this point. Which of the two organizations has proven the more successful in attaining their goals?

Nodin

Manic Moran wrote: »

They probably could take a leaf from Hezbullah's book. Two of the 13 "principles of war" which Hezbullah developed were "The population is a treasure-nurture it" and "Hurt the enemy and then stop before he abandons restraint." The latter is part of the reason that the 2006 incursion was a shock to Hezbullah. They honestly were trying to stay on the other side of the "provoke significant Israeli action" line. The other difference is that Hezbullah were also somewhat in a position to defend against said Israeli action if it happened.

Hamas seems to have a little less care for its own population, and seems to be actively goading the Israelis into larger action at this point. Which of the two organizations has proven the more successful in attaining their goals?

I never said it was a good idea, merely that they believe what they do based on a certain interpretation of the facts. Given the inability of Hamas rockets to inflict any serious damage or consequences on the Israeli state or forces save annoyance and a cause for massive retaliation, I think they're on a hiding to nothing by using them.

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

They think it is, and as they are in the territory not being colonised simply because its too much trouble, you can see why they think that.

Just saw the reply to MM after I originally posted this message, fair enough.

In any case it seems like less people are falling for the "martyr complex" that Hamas espouse and they're getting less sympathy because a lot of people are starting to realise that continually putting your own people in danger for a patently unachievable goal is just reckless.

Add to that is the fact that Hamas have less allies than in previous escalations, the Iranians are busy with keeping their clients in Iraq in power, the Syrians are embroiled in civil war, Hezbollah are too involved in Syria and the Egyptians are trying to keep a lid on their domestic problems. Hamas's position looks much weaker this time around.

Brown Bomber

Manic Moran wrote: »

I'm not not entirely sure who you're referring to here as who in this analogy.

I am referring to you.

I am asking you how you would react and what reaction you would demand of your civic leaders if Danville was surrounded on all sides and placed under siege by ethno-supremacist terrorists. Would you stand by and expect your community leaders to do nothing; even if you were heavily outgunned as these terrorists rounding up hundreds of your neighbours and torturing them, bulldozing their homes, the old women of your neigbourhood being literally frightened to death and slaughtering them from the air?

In other words would you rather die on you feet or live on your knees?

Manic Moran wrote: »

What broke the dam was the issue of the four killed youths..

Nobody deserves to die the way the did but they weren't completely innocent either seeing as they were illegal settlers living off stolen property in their Jews only colony.

That aside, it is apparent to me at least that this is/was a manufactured crisis cynically stage-managed by the right-wing, bloodthirsty lunatics the people of Israel thought fit to govern.. As Obama's original choice for Chief-of-Staff and son of an Irgun terrorist Rahm Emanuel said "never let a good crisis go to waste".

In the first place Shin Bet would/should have been made aware of this incident in virtual real time. The apparent killings of the Israelis were recorded in a phone call made to Israeli police. The scene of the crime could be established with mobile phone tracking.

Second, The PA informed the Israelis of the disappearance of the two suspects within 24 hours of the murders. Within 24 hours of this their homes were raided. I find it hard to believe the shallow graves took so long to find as the Israelis were buried on land belonging to one of the suspects family.

During this time the Israeli public were whipped up into an ultra-nationalistic frenzy by their ultra-nationalist state through racist rhetoric and an imposed a gag order on the media which prevented the details being released confirming the near certainty that the young Israeli men were already dead which would have helped the Israeli mob's bloodlust to subside.

IDF soliders were posting masked pictures of themselves promising genocide or "death to Arabs" in revenge.



While Israelis were kidnapping Arab children and burning them alive in racist attacks and the racial hatred was reaching a crescendo the head of state announces the death of the teenagers and promises more bloodshed and followed in the long line of Israeli leaders in making veiled racist slurs against the Palestinian people.

They were abducted and murdered in cold blood by human animals...Vengeance for the blood of a small child, Satan has not yet created

And it's not just the racist leaders of old he is mimicking. Bibi is also following in his own fathers footsteps.

Q: Operation Cast Lead was one of the worst beatings we ever handed on a civilian population.
A: That’s not enough. It’s possible that we should have hit harder.


Q: You don’t like the Arabs, to say the least.
A: The Bible finds no worse image than that of the man from the desert. And why? Because he has no respect for any law. Because in the desert he can do as he pleases. The tendency toward conflict is in the essence of the Arab. He is an enemy by essence. His personality won’t allow him any compromise or agreement. It doesn’t matter what kind of resistance he will meet, what price he will pay. His existence is one of perpetual war.

More of his disgusting views can found here: http://972mag.com/the-late-benzion-netanyahus-appalling-views-on-arabs/44215/

Including a mentality that perfectly describes the racist mob violence currently occuring in Israel,

On Arab citizens of Israel

I think we should speak to the Israeli Arabs in the language they understand and admire – the language of force. If we act with strength against any crime they commit, they will understand we show no forgiveness. Had we used this language from the start, they would have been more careful.

Brown Bomber

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Ceasefire from Hamas would be a start.

You know the suspects were from a rogue element within Hamas right?

Manic Moran

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I am referring to you.

I am asking you how you would react and what reaction you would demand of your civic leaders if Danville was surrounded on all sides and placed under siege by ethno-supremacist terrorists. Would you stand by and expect your community leaders to do nothing; even if you were heavily outgunned as these terrorists rounding up hundreds of your neighbours and torturing them, bulldozing their homes, the old women of your neigbourhood being literally frightened to death and slaughtering them from the air?

In other words would you rather die on you feet or live on your knees?

I meant who did you mean was which protagonist, but I now see you are equating Danville with the Palestinian position.

Here's the thing about your last line. When one dies one one's feet, one tends not to stay on one's feet very long. In fact, the standard procedure is to fall to at least the knees, and usually all the way to lying down in the mud, where one then begins to decompose and rot, unless a thoughtful passer-by is nice enough to bury or burn one's corpse. I am not entirely convinced that the best interests of myself and my friends and families are served by our being made dead. It's a definite negative influence upon our quality of life.

There are usually third options, often involving biding time and finding allies. The Chinese were masters of it over decades. The French resistance in WW2 kept going with the little pin-pricks, but waited until there was enough active help outside before rising up for serious combat missions.

So should the leadership of Danville sit and do nothign for ever, in such a circumstance? No, of course not. But neither should they go and invite death and destruction in an open war which they cannot win. The end result would be that Danville gets flattened, and the territory still isn't free.

Augmerson

Does anyone know what equipment the Palestinians use to fire rockets into Israel?

...__...

SeaBreezes wrote: »

So, let me get this straight. 3 teenagers disappeared in the west bank. These kids were illegally farming land which had been bulldozed in the last 5 years and the original farmers kicked off, with the farms given to these 3 kids. These three kids dressed and wore clothes that easily identified them as orthodox jew, and to get to their illegal settlement, had to hitchhike through 3 local towns in gaza. Past all those people who have been dispossed and whos farms they now farm. And these stupid kids hitchhiked through these towns regularly. Im actually surprised the kids were not harmed long before. Its akin to 3 orange marchers, in full regalia, marching down the most nationalist streets at the height of the troubles on their own. Dont get me wrong, I disagree with ANY violence, and feel so sorry that their lives ended as they did. But when reading the articles I read that 400 'suspects' were rounded up and 'interrogated'. Seriously? Thats an entire town and not an investigation. Also what I read in one tiny article, is THEN Israel fired at known rocket launcher sites. The palestinian boy was burned alive and suddenly we have a massacre. Anyone who can condone the killing of children for ANY reason should be deeply ashamed of themselves. Im trying to see a peaceful way forward here, but I cannot. Israel should be ashamed. America also. There is no excuse for the continued carnage and suffering of these kids. The blockades, the genocide. I just dont get it. Chain and starve and beat an animal, and you will just get a more dangerous, angrier animal. From what I can see of Israels policies, that is what they are doing to palestinians. How can they ever expect mutual respect and peace when they never give it a chance? And I believe the average Israeli is not comfortable with what is happening now too. Its so awfully sad, and we stand by and let it happen

You have nothing straight there these kids did not own farms nor were they returning from farming they were coming back from school hitchiking.
They didnt have to go or where anywhere near Gaza
Hamas were firing rockets long before Israel retaliated and then it was only because Hamas upped the amount of rockets.
It really annoys me when both sides start making up there own news and twisting words like burning children instead of child while not to diminish what has happened which was horrific and Im glad people have been arrested for this things like that just add fuel to the fire.
Here is a brief timeline of rocket attacks
· June 11: One rocket fired at southern Israel.
· June 12: Three Israeli teenagers, Naftali Fraenkel, and Eyal Yifrach kidnapped in the West Bank.
· June 15: Four rockets fired at Israel from Gaza; two of which were intercepted by Iron Dome, meaning they were intended for civilian targets. · June 18: Five rockets fired from Gaza; two hit the Sha’ar Hanagev Regional Council and one house was damaged by the explosions.
· June 21: Three rockets fired at Israel; one hit the Sha’ar Hanagev Regional Council, one hit Hof Ashkelon Regional Council.
· June 27: Gaza terrorists fired six rockets at Israel; Iron Dome intercepted two rockets.
· June 29: Four rockets fired from Gaza into the South of Israel; 2 intercepted by the Iron Dome.
· July 30: Bodies of the three kidnapped teenagers found in the West Bank

Abbas is calling for Hamas to stop the rockets but they dont care about anything other than martyerdom I cant call them racist because they slaughter there own a lot more.

iMrApex

Conas wrote: »

You see you are using keywords, you are too influenced by the likes of the Anti-Defamation League, and Jewish film directors like Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay, who have filled your mind with a lot of powerful imagery, which is built around keywords antisemitism, hate, bigtory, terrorists etc Those are keywords. Just remember the Arabs are semites aswell.

If Israel wasn't violating International Law by building settlements on land that doesn't belong to them, denying these people their basic human rights. Warmongering against nearly every nation in the Middle East. Trying to start wars and getting another country to do the fighting for them, maybe all this wouldn't be happening.

But as JFK said in 1939, the Jewish mentality of 'total domination' as he put it, means this is never going to end.

Land that doesn't belong to Israel?

Mandatory Palestine was an entity under British administration, carved out of Ottoman Southern Syria after World War I. British civil administration in Palestine operated from 1920 until 1948. In 1923 the British "chopped off" 75% of Mandatory Palestine and formed Transjordan. Both were under British rule.

Palestine has never existed as an autonomous entity. It is a geographical term, used to designate the region at those times in history when there is no nation or state there. There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians.

The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was a proposal developed by the United Nations, which recommended a partition with Mandatory Palestine to follow the termination of the British Mandate. On 29 November 1947, the U.N. General Assembly adopted a resolution recommending the adoption and implementation of the Plan as Resolution 181(II).

The Partition Plan was not realized in the days following the 29 November 1947 resolution as envisaged by the General Assembly. It was followed by outbreaks of violence in Mandatory Palestine between Palestinian Jews and Arabs known as the 1947–48 Civil War. At midnight on 14 May 1948, the British Mandate expired and Britain disengaged its forces. Earlier in the evening, the Jewish People's Council had gathered at the Tel Aviv Museum, and approved a proclamation, declaring "the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz Israel, to be known as the "State of Israel". The 1948 Arab–Israeli War began with the invasion of, or intervention in, Palestine by the Arab States on 15 May 1948.

The armistice lines were known afterwards as the "Green Line". The Gaza Strip and the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) were occupied by Egypt and Jordan. The territory under Israeli control was three-quarters of the prior British administered Mandate.

During those 19 years, 1948-1967, Jordan and Egypt never offered to surrender those lands to make up an independent state of "Palestine". The "Palestinians" never sought it. Nobody in the world ever suggested it, much less demanded it.

In 1964, the Palestine Liberation Movement was founded. Its charter proclaimed its sole purpose to be the destruction of Israel. To that end it helped to precipitate the Arab attack on Israel in 1967. In 1994 the PLO established the Palestinian National Authority territorial administration, that exercises some governmental functions in parts of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip

Brown Bomber

Manic Moran wrote: »

I meant who did you mean was which protagonist, but I now see you are equating Danville with the Palestinian position.

Here's the thing about your last line. When one dies one one's feet, one tends not to stay on one's feet very long. In fact, the standard procedure is to fall to at least the knees, and usually all the way to lying down in the mud, where one then begins to decompose and rot, unless a thoughtful passer-by is nice enough to bury or burn one's corpse. I am not entirely convinced that the best interests of myself and my friends and families are served by our being made dead. It's a definite negative influence upon our quality of life.

There are usually third options, often involving biding time and finding allies. The Chinese were masters of it over decades. The French resistance in WW2 kept going with the little pin-pricks, but waited until there was enough active help outside before rising up for serious combat missions.

So should the leadership of Danville sit and do nothign for ever, in such a circumstance? No, of course not. But neither should they go and invite death and destruction in an open war which they cannot win. The end result would be that Danville gets flattened, and the territory still isn't free.

I can't argue with your pragmatism though it iis easier to be pragmatic when you aren't being placed on a starvation diet and when you tuck your children at night wonder if they are going to be bombed to death as they sleep.

Brown Bomber

...__... wrote: »

Hamas were firing rockets long before Israel retaliated and then it was only because Hamas upped the amount of rockets.
It really annoys me when both sides start making up there own news and twisting words like burning children instead of child while not to diminish what has happened which was horrific

You "are making up your own news".
That rocket was the first that was fired since the union of Fatah and Hamas.

...__... wrote: »

Im glad people have been arrested for this things like that just add fuel to the fire.

Is this a sick joke?
Can you explain why hundreds of Israelis weren't rounded up and had their homes destroyed over this kidnapping?

...__... wrote: »

Here is a brief timeline of rocket attacks
· June 11: One rocket fired at southern Israel.

What your artilcle doesn't mention is that that the IDF also killed a passenger on the bike as well as injuring a 7 year old boy who was in the area. Is this moral behaviour? Is it just to murder people for a rocket which landed in a dirt field

And how far do you want to go back? The Israelis murdered two Palestinian children in cold blood at the end of May; the footage is even on Youtube.

And isn't it funny how the Israeli security state can be judge, jury and executioner - carrying out an extra-judicial killing in under 24 hours but it takes them nearly 3 weeks to figure out what happened in a crime they heard live?

Sierra Oscar

Augmerson wrote: »

Does anyone know what equipment the Palestinians use to fire rockets into Israel?

Te backbone of their arsenal is the Qassam rocket. The launch device and rocket itself are constructed with basic materials. They also use some al-Quds rockets which are also home-made.

BlaasForRafa

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Can you explain why hundreds of Israelis weren't rounded up and had their homes destroyed over this kidnapping?

6 settlers were arrested and the case is proceeding as it would in any other western country. One presumes that the police got confessions or has evidence solid enough not to need to make more arrests.

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Te backbone of their arsenal is the Qassam rocket. The launch device and rocket itself are constructed with basic materials. They also use some al-Quds rockets which are also home-made.

They have plenty of Grad rockets as well which is a Russian design (but Hamas ones were manufactured in Iran), this rocket packs 40 pounds of explosive and was also used a couple of days ago in the Ukrainian civil war to kill 30+ government troops. They also have some Fajr-5 rockets from Iran which are longer range and can reach Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

WakeUp

Manic Moran wrote: »

It's gone beyond that stage, though. If 'response' was their goal, then their point is already made. Continued rocketeering at this point, unless out of sheer bloody-mindedness, only has two possible realistic goals. One is to actually kill Israelis (I suspect that the mass barrage you mention isn't tried simply for logistical, not objective reasons), and the other is to goad a response which will garner the sympathy of the international community. Neither will bode well for the other Palestinians.

Hamas firing rockets is militarily ineffective there isn't any other way to put it. non-guided low yield weapons fired in single digit salvos v what appears to be a decent enough air defence system - they might aswell be p1ssing in the wind. So your point about bloodymindedness I think has merit though I also think it's because of anger and hopelessness a case of what else can they do . Firing a missile is an action full of intent one would have to think there is an intent to cause harm or kill. Though I still believe the original point I made about them not wanting to blitz a high population density area through choice as opposed to for logistical reasons is right. I also think the small number of long range missiles with a payload and range capable of doing what's needed for want of a better term - Hamas will not want to use them all they want to keep some as they are of "political" use. Their "best"/longest range missile is the m302 it has a decent enough payload for it's size. It's a Syrian built missile they call it the Khadir I think but its based on a Chinese design. The Chinese design is mounted on a truck chassis so is the Syrian design though I think Hamas have them in fixed positions as opposed to mobile ones. It's an mrls I've looked at some pictures of the Syrian launchers it's capable of holding and launching 6-8 missiles at a time .

So let's say Hamas had four of these launchers ( it would be prudent and I would think practical to have more than one ) in four fixed positions fully loaded and fired a salvo on four different trajectories all at the same time all in the direction of the same target - even unguided - it would be interesting to see how the Israeli iron dome would perform. It would vastly increase the chance of them inflicting some serious damage yet so far they haven't attempted this. If I was a Hamas commander or whatever and I wanted to attempt to really hurt the Israelis or smash up one of their cities - with the capabilities available -, it's what I would do.

WakeUp

Looks like the Israelis have launched their first ground operation commandos going after rocket sites..

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-12/israel-launches-ground-operation-gaza-special-forces-raid-alleged-rocket-compound

Live webcam feed from Gaza.

http://investmentwatchblog.com/its-starting-israel-bombing-gaza-live-working-cam/

kult

These pictures say it all. It was always like this...

jimeryan22

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Hamas should stop launching missiles at various Israeli cities, that would help.

Israel should give back all the land they stole off the Palestinians.. Commiting the very genocide they were saved from after ww2... That would help too

jimeryan22

kult wrote: »

These pictures say it all. It was always like this...

On the money

wes

WakeUp wrote: »

So let's say Hamas had four of these launchers ( it would be prudent and I would think practical to have more than one ) in four fixed positions fully loaded and fired a salvo on four different trajectories all at the same time all in the direction of the same target - even unguided - it would be interesting to see how the Israeli iron dome would perform.

It seems that the effectiveness of the Iron Dome is being questioned by various people, as the only information based on its effectiveness is from the IDF:

Iron Dome: the public relations weapon

It seems that the Iron Dome, has limited effectiveness against rockets, which in Hamas's case tend not to hit anything to begin with. Apparently it would have a even harder time against missiles.

It is interesting that the only source for the effectiveness of the tech comes from the IDF, while that is understandable to a degree, I do find it surprising that the is no information from the US on how effective it is. I am sure they must have access to the info.

brimal

Conas wrote: »

But as JFK said in 1939, the Jewish mentality of 'total domination' as he put it, means this is never going to end.

Source please.

Frank Lee Midere

wes wrote: »

It seems that the effectiveness of the Iron Dome is being questioned by various people, as the only information based on its effectiveness is from the IDF:

Iron Dome: the public relations weapon

It seems that the Iron Dome, has limited effectiveness against rockets, which in Hamas's case tend not to hit anything to begin with. Apparently it would have a even harder time against missiles.

It is interesting that the only source for the effectiveness of the tech comes from the IDF, while that is understandable to a degree, I do find it surprising that the is no information from the US on how effective it is. I am sure they must have access to the info.

I tend to trust the technology these days. Hamas is getting few weapons
ordinances through.

Frank Lee Midere

iMrApex wrote: »

Land that doesn't belong to Israel?

Mandatory Palestine was an entity under British administration, carved out of Ottoman Southern Syria after World War I. British civil administration in Palestine operated from 1920 until 1948. In 1923 the British "chopped off" 75% of Mandatory Palestine and formed Transjordan. Both were under British rule.

Palestine has never existed as an autonomous entity. It is a geographical term, used to designate the region at those times in history when there is no nation or state there. There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians.

The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was a proposal developed by the United Nations, which recommended a partition with Mandatory Palestine to follow the termination of the British Mandate. On 29 November 1947, the U.N. General Assembly adopted a resolution recommending the adoption and implementation of the Plan as Resolution 181(II).

The Partition Plan was not realized in the days following the 29 November 1947 resolution as envisaged by the General Assembly. It was followed by outbreaks of violence in Mandatory Palestine between Palestinian Jews and Arabs known as the 1947–48 Civil War. At midnight on 14 May 1948, the British Mandate expired and Britain disengaged its forces. Earlier in the evening, the Jewish People's Council had gathered at the Tel Aviv Museum, and approved a proclamation, declaring "the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz Israel, to be known as the "State of Israel". The 1948 Arab–Israeli War began with the invasion of, or intervention in, Palestine by the Arab States on 15 May 1948.

The armistice lines were known afterwards as the "Green Line". The Gaza Strip and the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) were occupied by Egypt and Jordan. The territory under Israeli control was three-quarters of the prior British administered Mandate.

During those 19 years, 1948-1967, Jordan and Egypt never offered to surrender those lands to make up an independent state of "Palestine". The "Palestinians" never sought it. Nobody in the world ever suggested it, much less demanded it.

In 1964, the Palestine Liberation Movement was founded. Its charter proclaimed its sole purpose to be the destruction of Israel. To that end it helped to precipitate the Arab attack on Israel in 1967. In 1994 the PLO established the Palestinian National Authority territorial administration, that exercises some governmental functions in parts of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip

Whether or not Palestine existed as a state or not is largely irrelevant ( ireland didn't before it did, Germany didn't before it did). What matters is the ethnic population which was there prior to the British mandate - it was Arab. If those Arabs want an independent Palestine or to join a caliphate or a larger Arab nation is irrelevant. And opinions are divided within the Palestinians on that.

What is clear is that Israelis are all descendents of recent immigrants. And recent genetic work puts doubt on Ashkenazi Jewish claims to be middle Eastern at all. Not that a claim on a piece of land owned temporarily 2000 years ago holds a hill of beans anyways.

Not that I hold paper for the Jewish ethnocracy or the Arab caliphate. For those of us from the west who are not leftist or neo-con the obvious position in this conflict is manifestly clear - not giving a ****.

Conas

brimal wrote: »

Source please.

You could just have typed in JFK in Palestine 1939 into google. The JFK Libary has the letters up on their site, but it seems to be down at the moment. You can get the gist of it in these links.

http://www.sott.net/article/252158-In-Dear-Dad-letter-in-1939-JFK-called-for-independent-Jerusalem

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/10/citing-zionist-desire-for-complete-domination-young-jfk-called-for-independent-jerusalem.html

iMrApex

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Whether or not Palestine existed as a state or not is largely irrelevant ( ireland didn't before it did, Germany didn't before it did)

iMrApex wrote: »

Palestine has never existed as an autonomous entity. It is a geographical term, used to designate the region at those times in history when there is no nation or state there. There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians.

You can't apply what you said to Germany or Ireland.

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

What matters is the ethnic population which was there prior to the British mandate - it was Arab.

No it wasn't, there was a Jewish population there before WW2. Some people seem to think that Jewish people were "herded up" and sent to Palestine after WW2. Simply what happened was the UN drew up a partition plan which caused outbreaks of violence, reprisals, etc. in Palestine between the two sides. The Partition Plan was not realized in the days following the 29 November 1947. The civil war began when an eight-man gang from Jaffa, which was Arab, ambushed a bus killing five and wounding others. Half an hour later they ambushed a second bus, southbound from Hadera, killing two more. At other places, Arab snipers skirmished Jewish buses in Jerusalem and Haifa. The Jewish population "won" the war and hence why we have Israel as a state. If the Arab population "won" then Israel wouldn't exist.

kult wrote: »

iMrApex - are you jewish?

I'm Catholic, born in Ireland, live in Ireland, etc. It's strange how I simply provide a brief history behind everything and you think I'm Jewish. I wonder how you would feel if the roles were reversed in Israel.

WakeUp

wes wrote: »

It seems that the effectiveness of the Iron Dome is being questioned by various people, as the only information based on its effectiveness is from the IDF:

Iron Dome: the public relations weapon

It seems that the Iron Dome, has limited effectiveness against rockets, which in Hamas's case tend not to hit anything to begin with. Apparently it would have a even harder time against missiles.

It is interesting that the only source for the effectiveness of the tech comes from the IDF, while that is understandable to a degree, I do find it surprising that the is no information from the US on how effective it is. I am sure they must have access to the info.

Not wanting to understate the harm the rockets can do as they are dangerous, in the grand scheme of things though missile/rocket tech they are mere firecrackers. I'm not convinced about Iron dome it appears to be decent but no more. some of those rockets are getting through and as it says in the article you linked it appears to be intercepting the rockets incorrectly not taking out the fuse or warhead. I read something similar from a Raytheon engineer not sure if it's the same person from your article. so there is probably an element of luck involved as to why more Israelis have not been hurt. Iron dome is pretty much a point defence system yet some Israelis seem to believe it would protect them from a serious opponent for example Iran. I think those people are misinformed even delusional and in turn extremely dangerous. If they tried that Gaza sh1t with Iranian nuclear facilities the Iranian response would decimate them. Iranian sat guided ballistic missiles with a 7km blast radius, dummy warheads to confuse/tie up defenses, proper intell painting of targets etc..good luck with that. I reckon the Americans have info alright too but they won't release it they spent a lot of money on the system wouldn't think they would be to keen to start dissin it which I can understand.