Becoming naturalised in a foreign country

murphaph

I'm in Germany "a good few" years now and have a family etc. here and I'm eligible to become a German citizen (for €250 admin and a little test of German history, politics etc. easy enough stuff). In fact as long as I pass the test they must grant me citizenship. It's the law for EU citizens who have been here long enough and speak German.

I'm considering doing it for the following reasons:
-I could actually vote in a general election again
-I would get better consular assistance in an emergency as Germany has a much bigger diplomatic mission than Ireland
-I would finally get a handy national ID card instead of the Passport + Residence Permit combo mullarky that I have now.
-If it all goes tits up in the EU (who knows what the Brits will do and how Ireland will respond etc.) I'd prefer to have the citizenship of a "strong" country than a "weak" one.

Cons:
Can't think of any apart from the expense. Don't need to actually travel on my German passport (or even have one) to avail of consular assistance and I still think an Irish passport is safer in certain Islamic states given Germany's active participation in places like Afghanistan.

Has anyone here become a citizen of a foreign country or contemplated it?

Arbiter of Good Taste

Do you actually need to revoke your Irish passport in order to become a German citizen? Some jurisdictions allow dual citizenship.

Assuming you plan on going to Afghanistan or similar, then you could travel on an Irish passport (though I really wonder what value it will be if you encounter a zealous jihadist on your travels)

DoesNotCompute

No harm having it, as both Ireland and Germany recognise multiple citizenships.

With regard to the EU breaking up, I don't see that happening, it's just Cameron talking guff to lure more hardline voters away from voting for UKIP and back to voting Conservative.

My wife is from Peru and I would consider becoming a Peruvian citizen if we were to emigrate and live over there for at least 2 years.

murphaph

No, Germany does not require EU nationals to give up their other citizenship and Ireland allows dual citizenship. I would remain an Irish citizen.

Starmixed

Regarding embassies, if there is no Irish one available then another EU one must help. It's an EU rule.

Arbiter of Good Taste

murphaph wrote: »

No, Germany does not require EU nationals to give up their other citizenship and Ireland allows dual citizenship. I would remain an Irish citizen.

In which case you can keep your Irish passport. I have two passports and there is no problem.

syklops

Starmixed wrote: »

Regarding embassies, if there is no Irish one available then another EU one must help. It's an EU rule.

Theres help and theres help.

Zambia

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Do you actually need to revoke your Irish passport in order to become a German citizen? Some jurisdictions allow dual citizenship.

Assuming you plan on going to Afghanistan or similar, then you could travel on an Irish passport (though I really wonder what value it will be if you encounter a zealous jihadist on your travels)

Afghanistan should be ok, don't try showing it on entering Brazil anytime soon.

keithclancy

murphaph wrote: »

I'm in Germany "a good few" years now and have a family etc. here and I'm eligible to become a German citizen (for €250 admin and a little test of German history, politics etc. easy enough stuff). In fact as long as I pass the test they must grant me citizenship. It's the law for EU citizens who have been here long enough and speak German.

I'm considering doing it for the following reasons:
-I could actually vote in a general election again
-I would get better consular assistance in an emergency as Germany has a much bigger diplomatic mission than Ireland
-I would finally get a handy national ID card instead of the Passport + Residence Permit combo mullarky that I have now.
-If it all goes tits up in the EU (who knows what the Brits will do and how Ireland will respond etc.) I'd prefer to have the citizenship of a "strong" country than a "weak" one.

Cons:
Can't think of any apart from the expense. Don't need to actually travel on my German passport (or even have one) to avail of consular assistance and I still think an Irish passport is safer in certain Islamic states given Germany's active participation in places like Afghanistan.

Has anyone here become a citizen of a foreign country or contemplated it?

Just a cost thing really.

No benefit for consular assistance, its possible for example to use the Dutch (or any other EU Embassy) when no other one is there, on Bali for example.

Travel wise I think German and Irish passports have almost the same amount of Visa free travel and freedom of movement.

The residence permit thing should be gone now ? AFAIK the Dutch abolished it (Verblijfsvergunning) for EU Citizens some years ago.

It's not even really useful as ID.

Been living in NL 7 years now, I wouldn't really be arsed to be honest, the Irish passport is expensive enough as it is.

Starmixed

syklops wrote: »

Theres help and theres help.

I beg your pardon,by I don't understand what you mean.

murphaph

keithclancy wrote: »

Just a cost thing really.

No benefit for consular assistance, its possible for example to use the Dutch (or any other EU Embassy) when no other one is there, on Bali for example.

As someone else said...there's help and there's help. I suspect any EU diplomatic mission will help their own that bit more.

keithclancy wrote: »

It's not even really useful as ID.

A German credit card size Ausweis is definitely useful as ID. Don't even need a passport for EU and schengen countries with it. It's more robust and cheaper to replace than a passport.

keithclancy wrote: »

Been living in NL 7 years now, I wouldn't really be arsed to be honest, the Irish passport is expensive enough as it is.

The lack of a vote kind of bothers me now to be honest.

DoesNotCompute

Starmixed wrote: »

I beg your pardon,by I don't understand what you mean.

Think he means that the German idea of consular assistance and the Irish idea of consular assistance vastly differ.

Jim2007

Yes I got Swiss citizenship last year...

murphaph wrote: »

-I could actually vote in a general election again

We vote every quarter on 7 or 8 different issues: local issues, Kanton issues and Federal issues....

murphaph wrote: »

-I would get better consular assistance in an emergency as Germany has a much bigger diplomatic mission than Ireland

Switzerland <-> Ireland, not much in it for me

murphaph wrote: »

-I would finally get a handy national ID card instead of the Passport + Residence Permit combo mullarky that I have now.

Definitely an advantage to be able to stick the plastic card in the wallet...

murphaph wrote: »

-If it all goes tits up in the EU (who knows what the Brits will do and how Ireland will respond etc.) I'd prefer to have the citizenship of a "strong" country than a "weak" one.

Switzerland <-> Ireland, again not much in it for me

My main reason for taking out Swiss citizenship is that here is where I feel at home, it is where my life is. It is nice to visit Ireland every so often, but it stopped feeling like home a long time ago.

jester77

murphaph wrote: »

As someone else said...there's help and there's help. I suspect any EU diplomatic mission will help their own that bit more.


A German credit card size Ausweis is definitely useful as ID. Don't even need a passport for EU and schengen countries with it. It's more robust and cheaper to replace than a passport.


The lack of a vote kind of bothers me now to be honest.

Is the Ausweis really that big a deal? I'm here 15 years, family, etc. The only thing that annoys me is not being able to vote, so that would be the only reason I would change. But I've not had a single instance in all those years where I needed an Ausweis. I don't ever carry my passport with me either unless going travelling (I know legally I am supposed to). If I ever need ID my German driving license has always been enough.

murphaph

I don't carry my passport around either unless I'm travelling but I have been declined at the post office of all places when trying to pick up a parcel with my (German) driving licence. since then I always bring my passport + Anmeldung (registration of abode).

I think it's just handier to be able to travel (in Europe) with just your normal wallet contents and not have to bring a passport. It's probably a lot more use to have such an ID card when you live in a border area and might spontaneously cross. Living in Hamburg (and here in Berlin) that's less likely of course, but I am reminded of a trip to Görlitz (German town on the border with Poland, lovely spot) a few years ago which was sort of spontaneous and I didn't want to cross the border as I had forgotten my passport.

The voting thing is really starting to make me feel like an outsider at this stage as well. I pay my taxes, own property, speak the language and so on but not being able to vote makes you feel the eternal outsider, well I do anyway.

You're not actually required to carry your passport by the way. Germany has an Ausweispflicht which means you are obliged to be able to satisfactorily identify yourself to a police officer or you may be detained until you do so. A police officer just has to be satisfied as to your identity though and other forms of ID can serve that function. It is absolutely not a crime, nor can you be fined or charged simply for not having a passport on your person (unlike not having a driving licence on your person while driving, which is an offence). Some states (like Portugal that I know of) do have such laws, but not Germany.

munchkin_utd

btw folks, there is a plan or at least a positive attitude towards bringing in an ID in Ireland.
Theres already a garda age id and a social services ID - so replacing that (for irish citizens) with a national ID is no big step.

also, murphaph is right on the carrying of ID in germany. Its not compulsorary.

EDIT: wouldnt mind the vote, but in the federal system so much is decided at the city level which i can vote on that I'm middling content with that.
State elections in Bavaria have only ever been won by one party and national elections are a grand coalition every other time, that voting at that level doesnt make any difference in the slightest, and nor does not having a vote.

keithclancy

murphaph wrote: »

As someone else said...there's help and there's help. I suspect any EU diplomatic mission will help their own that bit more.

A friend of mine with an Irish passport had no problem using the Dutch consul in Cuba when he had to get money sent to him because his Irish MBNA card would not work because MBNA are(were) an american bank.

A German credit card size Ausweis is definitely useful as ID. Don't even need a passport for EU and schengen countries with it. It's more robust and cheaper to replace than a passport.

Well for a start I know a lot of Dutchies that don't have the ID card because they Travel outside the EU quite a bit.

An Ausweis or in Dutch (Identiteitskaart) is a National Identity Card, this is only available to Citizens.

An Aufenthaltstitel or in Dutch Verblijsdocument is not valid for Identification purposes in the Netherlands.

Only acceptable forms of Identification are:
Passport
National Identity Card
Dutch Drivers License (Even EU Non Dutch driving licenses are not accepted)

I was merely pointing out that the Residence Permit I believe is no longer given to EU Citizens.

You're not actually required to carry your passport by the way. Germany has an Ausweispflicht which means you are obliged to be able to satisfactorily identify yourself to a police officer or you may be detained until you do so. A police officer just has to be satisfied as to your identity though and other forms of ID can serve that function. It is absolutely not a crime, nor can you be fined or charged simply for not having a passport on your person (unlike not having a driving licence on your person while driving, which is an offence). Some states (like Portugal that I know of) do have such laws, but not Germany

Same rule in the Netherlands, basically if you do nothing wrong you're grand.
I cross the border every day between Germany and the Netherlands for the last 4 years and I think I got stopped once by the Zoll for a random check. The person in the car with me had no ID other than a photocopy of her passport and that was fine.

Alun

murphaph wrote: »

Has anyone here become a citizen of a foreign country or contemplated it?

I seriously thought about it when I lived in the Netherlands, but never went through with it. I wish I had now, as I'm a UK citizen and if they're stupid enough to decide to leave the EU, that leaves me with some seriously restricted options should I choose to move somewhere else in the EU in the near future.

mandrake04

I have 3 passports, Irish, British and Australian.

The Australian one automatically gives me a right to live an work in NZ plus very easy access to a E-3 visa for the USA.

murphaph

Alun wrote: »

I seriously thought about it when I lived in the Netherlands, but never went through with it. I wish I had now, as I'm a UK citizen and if they're stupid enough to decide to leave the EU, that leaves me with some seriously restricted options should I choose to move somewhere else in the EU in the near future.

Can't you get an Irish passport as well after 5 years in Ireland? Ireland is less likely to leave the EU than the UK. It would be some back up at least.

Alun

murphaph wrote: »

Can't you get an Irish passport as well after 5 years in Ireland? Ireland is less likely to leave the EU than the UK. It would be some back up at least.

Indeed, I'm considering that too. It's just that the chances of NL leaving would have been vanishing close to zero, so a much safer bet.

FURET

I'd say go for it, Murphaph.
I'm married to a Filipino citizen and as soon as we can, we'll apply for Irish citizenship for her. At least our child will get this citizenship by default.

I work with mainly Indians, Filipinos, and Egyptians here in Dubai, and I honestly never truly appreciated what a gift-of-birth EU citizenship is until I saw the hoops they have to jump through every time they want to travel anywhere. They all know what a "Schengen visa" is and consider it a coveted prize. Yet I'd bet that many Europeans have no idea what a Schengen visa is. They don't need to know, and that's the point: we take it for granted.

Wifey and I are off to French Polynesia in September and we have to get a visa for her. On the way, we want to stop off in New Zealand for 24 hours going out and coming back, and she needs a multiple entry visa for which she's not technically entitled. More paperwork and sharing of sensitive documents to get that. We also want to go to northern Finland in the New Year, so more applications required. At least we've now secured a multiple entry visa for her for Ireland so she can travel to Ireland with me in case of an emergency.

Basically - you're a European and you've invested heavily in Germany. It's a very good investment, and you can never have too many of those.

Jim2007

As an aside, what I find amusing is my kids attitude to citizenship... My son will tell you he is Irish, but has Swiss citizenship too and normally carries his Irish passport when travelling. Where as my daughter does the opposit!

munchkin_utd

regarding the benefit of having a large country for your consular representation and help abroad rather than a small country, have a read of this which is the 8month quest in search of a missing irish person across europe, which the Irish embassy and consulates in Spain bent over backwards to make happen, ringing ahead to the airports to ensure her passage back to Ireland.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Nollaig-OConnor-has-been-found/1425474127714519?fref=photo&sk=photos

I couldnt imagine the German embassy doing that for you. Not to say its impossible, but from knowing/ meeting irish consular officials from one end of europe to the other, I'd trust them quicker than a German civil servant who serves their paperwork more than their citizens.

Soldie

Do it for the voting rights if they mean that much to you. I don't think the other reasons make it worth it.

I can't imagine I'd be arsed if I'm here long enough to be eligible. (How many years is it, by the way?)

murphaph

8 and they have to give it to you if you speak the lingo and pass the little test. Can be reduced if you can prove exceptional levels of integration.

Bob24

Unless 250 euros are a big deal for you, just get it.

From a very selfish perspective: 250 euros is not a very big amount and will give this to you for the rest of your life, you have the chance to get it - just grab it. You don't have any critical use for it today, but who knows what might have changed in Europe 30 from now? Who know if a country you want to emigrate to won't have better immigration options for German citizens? You might regret not having spent the 250 euros then.

From a more sentimental perspective: if you feel well in Germany and are planning to stay long term, why not connect with the country more? You'll be able to vote, and even though some locals won't believe you are, you will be no less German than they are.

And you'll probably get some small perks which are fairly superficial and should not drive the decision but could be nice to have:
Not a huge deal but I agree a small national ID card that fits a wallet is something ireland is missing. You can just have it in you all the time and don't have to worry about your passport when travelling to Europe.
Should you one day go on a traveling spree and need to apply for two visas at the same time or travel someone and apply for a visa at the same time ... This will be no problem with 2 passports.

keithclancy

Bob24 wrote: »

Unless 250 euros are a big deal for you, just get it.

From a very selfish perspective: 250 euros is not a very big amount and will give this to you for the rest of your life, you have the chance to get it - just grab it. You don't have any critical use for it today, but who knows what might have changed in Europe 30 from now? Who know if a country you want to emigrate to won't have better immigration options for German citizens? You might regret not having spent the 250 euros then.

From a more sentimental perspective: if you feel well in Germany and are planning to stay long term, why not connect with the country more? You'll be able to vote, and even though some locals won't believe you are, you will be no less German than they are.

And you'll probably get some small perks which are fairly superficial and should not drive the decision but could be nice to have:
Not a huge deal but I agree a small national ID card that fits a wallet is something ireland is missing. You can just have it in you all the time and don't have to worry about your passport when travelling to Europe.
Should you one day go on a traveling spree and need to apply for two visas at the same time or travel someone and apply for a visa at the same time ... This will be no problem with 2 passports.

Also, in the unlikely event they ever go to War and have a draft you'll be required to join as a citizen.

Unlikely, but still a possibility.

Freedom of movement wise, Germany has visa free access to 2 more countries than Ireland.

http://www.movehub.com/sites/default/files/filemanager/passport-power-fixed.png

In terms of using it for ID, I only really need it when I fly. I never carry it around with me and just leave it at home.

Saying that if we plan to have kids here in the Netherlands then I would go for it since kids can't claim it until they are 10 if their parents are not Dutch Citizens.

Bob24

keithclancy wrote: »

Also, in the unlikely event they ever go to War and have a draft you'll be required to join as a citizen.

This is all very theoretical, but could he not just depart for Ireland on his Irish passport and/or renounce his German citizenship if he wanted to escape this kind of thing? (I know it would make it a very good and patriotic citizen ... But well)

FURET

I'm just back in the Middle East having recently visited my company's HQ near Heidelberg. A lot of my English colleagues who work in the HQ have recently taken German citizenship - mostly, they said, because of the UKIP factor and also because their children born in Germany should have the same nationality as themselves, namely UK and German.

keithclancy

Bob24 wrote: »

This is all very theoretical, but could he not just depart for Ireland on his Irish passport and/or renounce his German citizenship if he wanted to escape this kind of thing? (I know it would make it a very good and patriotic citizen ... But well)

For Italians I know that if they avoid military service in this way they just get arrested whenever they enter Italy in the future.