can we ever be competitive without our own professional league?

tastyt

I just read a stat that we are the only country to ever play in the world cup without a player from their own domestic league being in any of our squads. This really is shocking.

My question is, with the growth of football around the world and the top English teams being able to pick up talent from Africa and Asia, and with our young players not getting a chance at the top level in England anymore, can we ever be successful without getting football on our own island in order?

Can a nation honestly hope to survive and have their great days on the big stage and totally turn a blind eye to what happens at their domestic level? Yes we have had intermittent qualifications for tournaments but it seems that these days have become increasingly the exception. Are we fooling ourselves into thinking we are a football nation when the disregard for the game on our own island shows that we certainly are not.

Iang87

Money, Cars, Women and Fame.

There you go thats what most of these 16 year olds dream about when leaving so its attitude that needs to change. If you can get a few not thinking like that and maybe a center of excellence here for our young lads we have a chance. Unfortunately that means putting money into grassroots, FAI hates grassroot. They view it as weeds

LiamoSail

As a country, we have a similar population to that of Scotland. With a league which, has the highest attendances relative to population in Europe, Scotland have continued to struggle internationally. I see no reason why we would differ significantly

tastyt

LiamoSail wrote: »

As a country, we have a similar population to that of Scotland. With a league which, has the highest attendances relative to population in Europe, Scotland have continued to struggle internationally. I see no reason why we would differ significantly

In fairness Scotland have qualified for nine world cups in comparison to our three. They have also produced many more top players and managers than ourselves. Yes they are struggling like ourselves at the moment but it is the very fact that they have a professional league for their young players which will probably ensure a brighter future for them than us. Interesting to see how we do in qualifying against them actually

Captain Havoc

tastyt wrote: »

In fairness Scotland have qualified for nine world cups in comparison to our three. They have also produced many more top players and managers than ourselves. Yes they are struggling like ourselves at the moment but it is the very fact that they have a professional league for their young players which will probably ensure a brighter future for them than us. Interesting to see how we do in qualifying against them actually

I think the point is that the circumstances have changed with players from all over the world playing in England, it's harder for players to get a chance at the top level of English football, it's about the current situation. A point I made in the pub only last night is that Irish players need to look beyond England and perhaps start playing in France, Belgium, Austria etc... instead of the championship and perhaps get the chance to play champions league or Europa league football.

The League of Ireland is the there, players get paid, that sounds like professionalism to me. Just because they're not on €100k per week doesn't mean they're not professional. I hope to see you at a league of Ireland game soon.

tastyt

Captain Havoc wrote: »

I think the point is that the circumstances have changed with players from all over the world playing in England, it's harder for players to get a chance at the top level of English football, it's about the current situation. A point I made in the pub only last night is that Irish players need to look beyond England and perhaps start playing in France, Belgium, Austria etc... instead of the championship and perhaps get the chance to
play champions league or Europa league
football.

And by the way I have been a regular at loi games for years so I know how professional or not it is

Yes I would certainly agree that players who aren't breaking through at maybe 20 or 21 years of age should look elsewhere but surely from 16 to 19 we can offer more for guys who have been shipped away to England and are rotting on benches in youth teams or reserves and are homesick. These are the guys who are lost to the game way more than people realise

Captain Havoc

tastyt wrote: »

And by the way I have been a regular at loi games for years so I know how professional or not it is

Yes I would certainly agree that players who aren't breaking through at maybe 20 or 21 years of age should look elsewhere but surely from 16 to 19 we can offer more for guys who have been shipped away to England and are rotting on benches in youth teams or reserves and are homesick. These are the guys who are lost to the game way more than people realise

Unless money comes, which won't unless fans come, which won't as I feel sport in Ireland only has a potential for 5,000 average attendance anyway, LOI teams will not be able to compete with the championship salaries or even league 1.

TheDoc

Iang87 wrote: »

Money, Cars, Women and Fame.

There you go thats what most of these 16 year olds dream about when leaving so its attitude that needs to change. If you can get a few not thinking like that and maybe a center of excellence here for our young lads we have a chance. Unfortunately that means putting money into grassroots, FAI hates grassroot. They view it as weeds

That's a sweeping statement to be fair, and I'd say out of every 20 about 1 or 2's real motiviation is only to earn the big bucks, and not really have a care in terms of playing football at that level.

I think the more obvious issue and stumbling block is the players we are getting through simply arn't good enough.

The coaching isn't good enough
The style and method we play football is horribly out dated
The standard played in our schoolboy leagues is sporadic and not high quality.

Brady made a small point on it last night and it holds water and makes sense. You go to a local schoolboy game here its the normal ****e about " stuck in" " win the second ball" and all that rubbish.

Go to schoolboy matches in other countries and its a totally different mantra and philosophy.

We severly lack technically aware and intelligent footballers. Not even gifted, just in anyway technical and intelligent, that can play multiple formations, that understand the game, that have a football brain.

It's not like we are picking from a pool of like 50 players here, there is thousands of teenagers, tens of thousands, that get trials and opportunities and end up not being good enough. It's harder now obviously that the net of English clubs sprawls accross the world, but that we have a bleak looking national side says it all really.

I'll still never forget my friend meeting us for a game of poker and us asking how things went at his trial for a LOI club. He was playing Sunday league football, was being fawned over by a few clubs, and not one of them, not one of them, could come close to matching the wage he was on at the time. He was working in a Tesco warehouse.....

I'd let that sink in for a minute, I really would.

Iused2likebusts

TheDoc wrote: »

That's a sweeping statement to be fair, and I'd say out of every 20 about 1 or 2's real motiviation is only to earn the big bucks, and not really have a care in terms of playing football at that level.

I think the more obvious issue and stumbling block is the players we are getting through simply arn't good enough.

The coaching isn't good enough
The style and method we play football is horribly out dated
The standard played in our schoolboy leagues is sporadic and not high quality.

Brady made a small point on it last night and it holds water and makes sense. You go to a local schoolboy game here its the normal ****e about " stuck in" " win the second ball" and all that rubbish.

Go to schoolboy matches in other countries and its a totally different mantra and philosophy.

We severly lack technically aware and intelligent footballers. Not even gifted, just in anyway technical and intelligent, that can play multiple formations, that understand the game, that have a football brain.

It's not like we are picking from a pool of like 50 players here, there is thousands of teenagers, tens of thousands, that get trials and opportunities and end up not being good enough. It's harder now obviously that the net of English clubs sprawls accross the world, but that we have a bleak looking national side says it all really.

I'll still never forget my friend meeting us for a game of poker and us asking how things went at his trial for a LOI club. He was playing Sunday league football, was being fawned over by a few clubs, and not one of them, not one of them, could come close to matching the wage he was on at the time. He was working in a Tesco warehouse.....

I'd let that sink in for a minute, I really would.

I agree with almost everything you say there apart from the last bit about your friend if he was good enough there are a fair few teams in the country that would comfortably pay him those wages.

TheDoc

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

I agree with almost everything you say there apart from the last bit about your friend if he was good enough there are a fair few teams in the country that would comfortably pay him those wages.

Possibly so, but the ones interested couldn't : / This was about five years ago so to be honest no idea what state the LOI was in, I'm not a follower, but found it pretty shocking that while already on a relatively low wage, he wasn't able to negotiate with a club to have them match what he was currently on, and ended up being just another wasted talent on the scrap heap.

TheNumpty

There will never be a full time 'professional' league in Ireland ever. Can you imagine what would happen to the GAA if we had a league in Ireland comparable to the likes of Holland or Belgium? I use those 2 countries as the benchmarks for developing children technically where playing the game competitively in Holland doesn't begin until they are 11-12 although they have begun at age 6. They also in Belgium's case put the onus on education when the kids come through the ranks.

The GAA would be rocked to the core if kids were allowed to develop playing soccer like they do in Belgium. In turn the LOI would have a far stronger league. However we would need the government to fund an ambitious project as shown in the link below. The FAI would have to find the right people to manage the project (highly unlikely). And most importantly the LOI would have to be the beneficiaries.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/jun/06/belgium-blueprint-gave-birth-golden-generation-world-cup-

losthorizon

TheNumpty wrote: »

There will never be a full time 'professional' league in Ireland ever. Can you imagine what would happen to the GAA if we had a league in Ireland comparable to the likes of Holland or Belgium? I use those 2 countries as the benchmarks for developing children technically where playing the game competitively in Holland doesn't begin until they are 11-12 although they have begun at age 6. They also in Belgium's case put the onus on education when the kids come through the ranks.

The GAA would be rocked to the core if kids were allowed to develop playing soccer like they do in Belgium. In turn the LOI would have a far stronger league. However we would need the government to fund an ambitious project as shown in the link below. The FAI would have to find the right people to manage the project (highly unlikely). And most importantly the LOI would have to be the beneficiaries.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/jun/06/belgium-blueprint-gave-birth-golden-generation-world-cup-

Belgian Football is fairly appalling and besides one or two big sides in Holland (who are not as strong as the used to be) the Dutch league isnt great either.

Both are filled with journeymen and second rate foreigners.

Having been to a Dutch league game and watched Cork City knock NEC out of Europe not impressed .

tastyt

losthorizon wrote: »

Belgian Football is fairly appalling and besides one or two big sides in Holland (who are not as strong as the used to be) the Dutch league isnt great either.

Both are filled with journeymen and second rate foreigners.

Having been to a Dutch league game and watched Cork City knock NEC out of Europe not impressed .

Ya but the average attendance is nearly twenty thousand in Holland. I know that's skewed by three or four big teams.

Every single player in the Dutch squad that have got to the semi final and final last time of the world cup have come up through the schoolboy and youth structure of its own clubs so in reality the Dutch league is on a different planet to the loi.

That makes a result by one of our clubs over theirs even more impressive

hjkl

losthorizon wrote: »

Belgian Football is fairly appalling and besides one or two big sides in Holland (who are not as strong as the used to be) the Dutch league isnt great either.

Both are filled with journeymen and second rate foreigners.

Having been to a Dutch league game and watched Cork City knock NEC out of Europe not impressed .

Cork City knocked NEC out 10 years ago.

losthorizon

tastyt wrote: »

Ya but the average attendance is nearly twenty thousand in Holland. I know that's skewed by three or four big teams.

Every single player in the Dutch squad that have got to the semi final and final last time of the world cup have come up through the schoolboy and youth structure of its own clubs so in reality the Dutch league is on a different planet to the loi.

That makes a result by one of our clubs over theirs even more impressive

No, the Dutch League is really Ajax, Fejenoord and PSV. Everything Goes through them. There was about one other winner since about the 1950s. Other than that its fairly not great. A LOI club would give any other Dutch club besides those three a run for their money. As Brian Kerr has pointed out at the World Cup the LOI is no longer in the 1980s.

Indeed at one stage we had a Columbia infunenced Monaghan Utd under Billy Bagster playing tiny short passing ala the 1990s WC finals. Not every club in Ireland plays the same style as people here seem to think. Its funny but Dutch clubs dont have scouts here but often when they do play here in Europe they often get interested then in players. Ie Kevin Doyle still chose England. (why would anyone choose Holland?) in the past Paul McGee went To Groningen and a load of Rovers players went to Spain and France after playing in international tournaments.

And as I pointed out the Belgian league is similiar but worse.

tastyt

losthorizon wrote: »

No, the Dutch League is really Ajax, Fejenoord and PSV. Everything Goes through them. There was about one other winner since about the 1950s. Other than that its fairly not great. A LOI club would give any other Dutch club besides those three a run for their money. As Brian Kerr has pointed out at the World Cup the LOI is no longer in the 1980s.

Indeed at one stage we had a Columbia infunenced Monaghan Utd under Billy Bagster playing tiny short passing ala the 1990s WC finals. Not every club in Ireland plays the same style as people here seem to think. Its funny but Dutch clubs dont have scouts here but often when they do play here in Europe they often get interested then in players. Ie Kevin Doyle still chose England. (why would anyone choose Holland?) in the past Paul McGee went To Groningen and a load of Rovers players went to Spain and France after playing in international tournaments.

And as I pointed out the Belgian league is similiar but worse.

Actually in the last eight years 4 different teams have won the Dutch league but in any league in Europe only a handful of teams can win it.

Anyway my point is really that these clubs have nurseries than bring kids through in conjunction with education, and they have produced countless world class players. I agree that the loi has improved hugely though.

Enjoy the match

Iused2likebusts

TheDoc wrote: »

Possibly so, but the ones interested couldn't : / This was about five years ago so to be honest no idea what state the LOI was in, I'm not a follower, but found it pretty shocking that while already on a relatively low wage, he wasn't able to negotiate with a club to have them match what he was currently on, and ended up being just another wasted talent on the scrap heap.

Out of interest which clubs were interested and what standard was he playing. For example if he was playing for a good LSL team and any of the big dublin teams wanted him they would easily have the funds to match his salary if they felt he was good enough to warrant them. The club in most cases would have offered him what they thought he was worth and chances are had a lot of better players currently at the club. The same way a big pl team wont pay huge wages to an unproven championship player. If he felt he had the talent to be one of the better players in the LOI surely 1 season proving himself at a better level on low enough wages wouldve been offset in years to come by improved contracts.

major bill

Plenty of Good players playing Leinster Senior League that think they could cut it in the LOI but fact remains they can't, it's proven in the cups. LOI teams aint going to pay wages for some lad coming in from the Leinster Senior unless he is outstanding.

Hotfail.com

frimpong wrote: »

Cork City knocked NEC out 10 years ago.

That was TEN years ago!? :eek:

LeinsterDub

TheNumpty wrote: »

There will never be a full time 'professional' league in Ireland ever. Can you imagine what would happen to the GAA if we had a league in Ireland comparable to the likes of Holland or Belgium?

No need to imagine it already happened here in the 70s.The gaa went from strength to strength while the soccer league imploded

HSAJT

(Amateur?) League of Ireland in Europe:

Goals FOR: 18
Goals AGAINST: 1

Wins: 5
Draws: 1
Losses: 0

How good could we be if we had our own professional league?

Richard Hillman

HSAJT wrote: »

(Amateur?) League of Ireland in Europe:

Goals FOR: 18
Goals AGAINST: 1

Wins: 5
Draws: 1
Losses: 0

How good could we be if we had our own professional league?

It was against fellow semi-pro teams from Wales and Luxemburg (I am not even sure if they are semi-pro). Are FK Banga a pro team?

CSF

Richard Hillman wrote: »

It was against fellow semi-pro teams from Wales and Luxemburg (I am not even sure if they are semi-pro). Are FK Banga a pro team?

It's still good to be so dominant over other European leagues. Doing the same to some other leagues is clearly some way off but no reason not to make a big deal out of such comprehensive wins.

dreamers75

Iang87 wrote: »

Money, Cars, Women and Fame.

There you go thats what most of these 16 year olds dream about when leaving so its attitude that needs to change. If you can get a few not thinking like that and maybe a center of excellence here for our young lads we have a chance. Unfortunately that means putting money into grassroots, FAI hates grassroot. They view it as weeds

bull****....FAi has a brilliant grassroots program. (granted teh laid off 8 CPOs from the country) but it still works.

Always get this **** on boards.ie Emerging Talent program is ****ing brilliant creates Championship footballers every year.

Amount of clueless people on this website is absurd. They have no clue what goes on at any level other than international and premier league in england.

Kinda answers the original OP.......

Iused2likebusts

dreamers75 wrote: »

bull****....FAi has a brilliant grassroots program. (granted teh laid off 8 CPOs from the country) but it still works.

Always get this **** on boards.ie Emerging Talent program is ****ing brilliant creates Championship footballers every year.

Amount of clueless people on this website is absurd. They have no clue what goes on at any level other than international and premier league in england.

Kinda answers the original OP.......

I think there are way too many kids on that emerging talent programme. It gives both kids and parents an unrealistic opinion of making it in the future.They should really narrow it down to the true elite players at each age group.