Toaiseach intervenes in Brooks debacle.

Permabear

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Tabnabs

Godge wrote: »

It is more that a third austerity budget (7th by my reckoning).

So you agree that we a firmly in the grip of austerity and the seriousness of this situation is not a trivial or inconsequential matter?

Godge wrote: »

Family homes being foreclosed on is not a large-scale problem in Ireland (I am not diminishing the effect on individuals). The statistics for foreclosures are small by comparison internationally considering the property collapse here.

How many times have we been warned that the issue of mortgage arrears is unsustainable for the banks?
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/long-term-mortgage-arrears-a-time-bomb-271128.html

Godge wrote: »

We do not have massive emigration. Emigration of unskilled inexperienced young Irish is being balanced by immigration of skilled foreign nationals to work in IT and pharmaceuticals.

89,000 in the last recorded year and the flow continues. That's mass emigration of Irish citizens.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/emigration-still-hitting-hard-as-250-leave-daily-29868486.html

Godge wrote: »

The banking system has passed all European stress tests.

You have some sort of time machine then? Because the European Banking Authority won't release its results until October.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/financial-services/results-of-bank-stress-tests-is-anybody-s-guess-1.1778138

Godge wrote: »

Unemployment is on the way down, and will continue downwards over the next two years.

There's that crystal ball again...

Godge wrote: »

The cancellation of the concerts will result in lost tourism, lost taxation and lost revenue for Dublin which would have helped with the problems you list.

The rejection of Garth Brooks to play to 240,000 fans has resulted in a potential loss in revenue to the exchequer and to the businesses nationwide. That responsibility lies squarely on his shoulders.

HeidiHeidi

I am now officially, totally and completely mortified by all of this.

If we were a laughing stock for not granting licences in the first place, the world must have keeled over with a heart attack laughing at us now.

For the first time in living memory a planning decision was made seemingly without fear, favour, malice or ill-will - and we go into international and diplomatic meltdown over it.

I really want to just give up sometimes.

ETA - and would someone PLEASE gag Christy Burke

flutered

heis trying to be all things to all men,

Ash.J.Williams

Happyman42 wrote: »

Yes, if the the event does not meet licencing requirements. Enda has undermined the entire planning process I'm afraid.

If anything we've spotted a problem with the law that FF would have sat on for years. So if the GB fiasco is the straw that...well that's good.

Pappacharlie

Is anyone else getting "fed up to the eye teeth" with all this lark? Heard the Dublin Lord Mayor introducing the Mexican ambassador and Barack Obama into the equation this morning. Then Joe Costello on radio said that Enda Kenny would be willing to "take" or "make" a call to Garth Brooks, FFS???
I think the whole thing should be let die a peaceful death!!! And Garth Brooks should be politely told that his Irish love affair is over.

flutered

if is this not the most puke inducing politicial game i have come across, then it has to be a close second.

Ash.J.Williams

Is garth a psychopath?

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Joe Costello needs to shut his mouth. The leader of our country should sit around and wait on Garth to give him a bell. Who the **** is this guy? You'd swear we were trying to get the lord himself to appear to the masses with all this pandering. Nothing in the last year has stayed top of the news cycle for so long. Its a sad indictment of our country that this issue more than any other seems to light a fire under Joe public. A dark day indeed.

Reekwind

Ugh, there's some crushing condescension in this thread. Whatever your opinion on Brooks' music (or music in general) there's no question that this is a major (the major) cultural event of the summer. It's a major news story because it directly affects some 400,000 people.

In a small country, I'm not really surprised that something like this draws political attention. Nor am I particularly dismayed at this. Don't we want elected officials paying attention to petitioning from ordinary people? It's that a pretty key component of a democratic system?

I'm very distrustful of the idea that politicians should lock themselves away in dark rooms and only confer with men in suits about WEIGHTY ISSUES.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Yes we want them listening to Joe soap. But we don't want them interfering in local government in issues which are none of their concern. Planning law is set in stone. The decision has been made. There is no appeals process and it would take a minimum of ten weeks to get a licence for a new event. Enda cannot change this except with emergency legislation. Which I am sure you would agree with be a total debacle at this stage.

For once the council do there job to the letter of the law and immediately there is back lash and high level politicians getting involved. Does it not strike you as strangely similar to how planning law worked (or didn't work) under Bertie Ahern. We should be deeply suspicious of any TDs getting involved in planning debates. It is not their concern.

HeidiHeidi

Reekwind wrote: »

Ugh, there's some crushing condescension in this thread. Whatever your opinion on Brooks' music (or music in general) there's no question that this is a major (the major) cultural event of the summer. It's a major news story because it directly affects some 400,000 people.

In a small country, I'm not really surprised that something like this draws political attention. Nor am I particularly dismayed at this. Don't we want elected officials paying attention to petitioning from ordinary people? It's that a pretty key component of a democratic system?

I'm very distrustful of the idea that politicians should lock themselves away in dark rooms and only confer with men in suits about WEIGHTY ISSUES.

But a legitimate planning decision was made. Independently.

As a result it that, a performer threw his toys out of the pram and refuses to play at all, despite being granted a licence for three gigs.

Why should any politician, never mind the bloody Taoiseach, be getting in any way involved in this independent process?

shruikan2553

Out of everything to get involved in even after Tuam this is what glorious leader decides to get involved with.

Permabear

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Fanglebert

It just gets worse and worse. Enda Kenny, you should know better and interfering like this is a bloody disgrace. I will never vote for you again, you have showed yourself to be just as bad as the last shower.

Godge

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

I am now officially, totally and completely mortified by all of this.

If we were a laughing stock for not granting licences in the first place, the world must have keeled over with a heart attack laughing at us now.

For the first time in living memory a planning decision was made seemingly without fear, favour, malice or ill-will - and we go into international and diplomatic meltdown over it.

I really want to just give up sometimes.

ETA - and would someone PLEASE gag Christy Burke

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

But a legitimate planning decision was made. Independently.

As a result it that, a performer threw his toys out of the pram and refuses to play at all, despite being granted a licence for three gigs.

Why should any politician, never mind the bloody Taoiseach, be getting in any way involved in this independent process?

The planning decision wasn't made independently. It was made because of the pressure from a very small minority of Dublin residents. They were the only ones putting pressure on and they got their decision, threatening injunctions, protests etc.

The rest of the public woke up to what was going on after the decision was made. This was one of the clearest examples of how incompetent public officials and local politicians bow down to local pressure groups without any consideration of the wider interest.

Marhay70

"TAOISEACH TO INTERVENE IN GARTH BROOKS DISPUTE"


Has somebody dug up Charlie Haughey while I was asleep?
Really, if the world thought we were a laughing stock by refusing permission for the concerts then they must really be convinced now.
Here's a thought, maybe as a compromise all those hoteliers, publicans, b&b owners etc. who hiked up their prices to coincide with the concerts and who are now bemoaning the loss to the "country" , of the cancellation, would contribute 50% of their profits to fund the a restoration fund for the Ballybough area, notably around Croke Villas, which has been shelved by Dublin City Council for lack of money. That way every gets a piece.

Tabnabs

Godge wrote: »

The planning decision wasn't made independently. It was made because of the pressure from a very small minority of Dublin residents. They were the only ones putting pressure on and they got their decision, threatening injunctions, protests etc.

The rest of the public woke up to what was going on after the decision was made. This was one of the clearest examples of how incompetent public officials and local politicians bow down to local pressure groups without any consideration of the wider interest.

The planning decision refers to the original conditions applied to the granting of planning permission for the current upgrade of CP and pre-dates this debacle by years. At least try to be fully informed before you sling mud at the local people whose rights are being trampled on here.

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

The planning decision wasn't made independently. It was made because of the pressure from a very small minority of Dublin residents. They were the only ones putting pressure on and they got their decision, threatening injunctions, protests etc.

The rest of the public woke up to what was going on after the decision was made. This was one of the clearest examples of how incompetent public officials and local politicians bow down to local pressure groups without any consideration of the wider interest.

The planning decision was made after looking at all the submissions and issues arising. That is how it should work.
Not good enough for some though when notional sums of money are involved or they don't get to bop about in stetsons. Exactly the kind of administration that got us into the mess we are in now.

It beggars belief that anybody cannot see that. Solving this issue (and there is no doubt that the process needs clarification) on the basis of one gig is kneejerk and reactionary. Have we learned nothing?

HeidiHeidi

Godge wrote: »

The planning decision wasn't made independently. It was made because of the pressure from a very small minority of Dublin residents. They were the only ones putting pressure on and they got their decision, threatening injunctions, protests etc.

The rest of the public woke up to what was going on after the decision was made. This was one of the clearest examples of how incompetent public officials and local politicians bow down to local pressure groups without any consideration of the wider interest.

I beg to disagree.

Licences for the concerts were applied for, in accordance with the planning permission granted following the redevelopment of Croke Park.

Objections and observations were legitimately submitted by residents' groups - parties who were going to be directly affected by the concerts. I have no doubt that if the residents/traders/workers/Christy Burke/Enda Kenny/Barrack bloody Obama had desired, they too could have submitted encouraging submissions in favour of the gigs, and they too would have been considered.

The submissions which WERE entered were considered by DCC, and a decision was reached.

No pressure was applied that I know of. I did not hear any mention of injunctions until the decision to grant 3 licences had been announced.

3 concerts were given permission to happen. Garth Brooks decided against holding those concerts - not the residents, not the council, not Owen Keegan.

Explain to me again why the Taoiseach should be getting involved in trying to overturn this independent process?

raymon

Enda shouldnt have got involved in a planning matter.

The trap was sprung by Fianna Fail sleeveens and he fell right into it.

Rightwing

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Out of everything to get involved in even after Tuam this is what glorious leader decides to get involved with.

Tuam was known about years ago. Not too many cared if the truth be told.

wrt40

[SmugMayoAccent]I'd like to Boogie, eh, woogie woogie on behalf of the people of this island of Ireland.[/SmugMayoAccent]

golfball37

raymon wrote: »

Enda shouldnt have got involved in a planning matter.

The trap was sprung by Fianna Fail sleeveens and he fell right into it.

He has followed their lead at every turn since March 2011, from day one in fact.

Rightwing

golfball37 wrote: »

He has followed their lead at every turn since March 2011, from day one in fact.

Well FF are the popular party. The country is just itching to have them back in. The likes of Mary Hanafin. We don't care if she gets golden handshakes and pensions, we'll vote her back to the local, then to the Dail, and even Europe if she so wishes.

wrt40

apparently Merkel had tickets. Starting to make sense now...

raymon

golfball37 wrote: »

He has followed their lead at every turn since March 2011, from day one in fact.

You mean he has lied under oath, misrepresented his address, forged receipts, lodged developers money to his wifes bank account, interfered with sentencing of drug dealers, demanded money witg menaces, taken bribes from developers, performed drunken hit and runs, etc?

Sorry i missed all of those things that enda did.

Permabear

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golfball37

raymon wrote: »

You mean he has lied under oath, misrepresented his address, forged receipts, lodged developers money to his wifes bank account, interfered with sentencing of drug dealers, demanded money witg menaces, taken bribes from developers, performed drunken hit and runs, etc?

Sorry i missed all of those things that enda did.

He has lied and followed their lead with regards to running a failed state. What FF people did personally is something I would never accuse him of. He is a rotten politician with no ability but he is not a bad person.

HeidiHeidi

Permabear wrote: »

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Meh, both reports from the Indo. You'll forgive me if I don't place a huge amount of credence in them. I haven't seen any more trustworthy sources for these stories so far.

I still maintain that a legitimate planning decision was made by the appropriate body, and NO politician has any business interfering with, or trying to overturn, that decision.

Happyman42

Permabear wrote: »

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Investigating 'some' of the objections.

Local resident Brian Duff has admitted that individuals who "wanted to take the GAA down" provided him with a suit and €15,000 in cash to seek a High Court injunction against the concerts.

Clearly, there has been underhandedness and chicanery on the other side of the fence, too.

What is underhand about it? There is a division within the GAA. There is nothing illegal about gathering funds to fund a court challenge...happens all the time.

Permabear

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zl1whqvjs75cdy

If the Pope's signature was on the bleedin thing it wouldn't make a difference. Decision has been made. There is no appeal and 10 weeks to get a licence. TO allow the gigs to go ahead now would **** all over current planning law from a great height. Why bother with laws at all if the boss man is just going to step in whenever he damn well pleases?

Permabear

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Permabear

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Happyman42

Permabear wrote: »

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One of those directly references their source as The Sindo while the other refers to 'It is reported'

Permabear wrote: »

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Which means what exactly? If there is a doubt of course they would question everybody involved.

So, you believe it's legitimate for unnamed individuals to slip €15,000 in cash to a local resident to seek a High Court injunction against the concerts, on the basis of internecine infighting within the GAA? Is that how business is done in Ireland?

Who 'slipped' anybody anything? People raise money to take injunctions all the time, nothing unusual or illegal about it.

cormacjones

Permabear wrote: »

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The licences for five shows weren't refused because of any petition. Not sure why you're making such a big point about it

Permabear

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Reekwind

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Yes we want them listening to Joe soap. But we don't want them interfering in local government in issues which are none of their concern. Planning law is set in stone. The decision has been made. There is no appeals process and it would take a minimum of ten weeks to get a licence for a new event. Enda cannot change this except with emergency legislation. Which I am sure you would agree with be a total debacle at this stage.

I certainly wouldn't agree with emergency legislation, which is why I'm glad that it seems to have been ruled out.

But nor do I agree with the primacy of process. If a bad decision has been made by an authority then I have no problem with a higher authority taking action to correct this. That is, local decisions are not necessary the correct ones and government interference to address this is not inherently bad. (See below.)

In this case, I'd like to see legislation (in the long-term) to correct the ludicrous scenario of events not being approved until the last moment. In the short-term, I don't have a problem with government trying to mitigate the worst of this fiasco for hundreds of thousands of citizens.

For once the council do there job to the letter of the law and immediately there is back lash and high level politicians getting involved. Does it not strike you as strangely similar to how planning law worked (or didn't work) under Bertie Ahern. We should be deeply suspicious of any TDs getting involved in planning debates. It is not their concern.

I disagree with the comparison. Planners taking bungs or waving through pet projects is one thing, reacting to popular distress is another entirely. That the latter has arisen in the first place suggests that something has gone wrong with the local approval processes.

Kensington

Godge wrote: »

The planning decision wasn't made independently. It was made because of the pressure from a very small minority of Dublin residents. They were the only ones putting pressure on and they got their decision, threatening injunctions, protests etc.

The rest of the public woke up to what was going on after the decision was made. This was one of the clearest examples of how incompetent public officials and local politicians bow down to local pressure groups without any consideration of the wider interest.

Define "wider interests".

As going by your logic, should a small group of midlands people hold the ESB to ransom over erecting pylons? Or Airtricity for erecting windfarms?
After all, a stable and efficient electricity supply which is built and upgraded at the best value for money is in the "wider interest" of Ireland is it not?

I think a major international airport is in the "wider interests" of tourism in Ireland, let's go slap an airport in the midlands, land is cheap, it's in the centre of the island to every Irish city so the tourists are only at most two hours from any extremity on the island and sure there's loads of rolling green fields. What's it if a few people in the countryside get upset? It's in "the wider interest" you see...

But let's not stop there.
Should a small island nation dictate to the UK what they can and cannot do in their nuclear power stations and waste treatment facilities?
There's a lot more people living in the UK than on the island of Ireland after all? And effective treatment of nuclear waste is in the wider interest of the EU?

Then, who are we to tell the US Military they can't land their planes or carry or stow arms in or through Shannon airport.
After all, they'd argue it's in the wider interest of the Western nations?


Thankfully, planning law and decision making doesn't work like that. Nor should it ever.

Permabear

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zl1whqvjs75cdy

ITs early day yet. Garth gate will rumble into the weekend.

Regarding the signatures on the petition. Yes if some have been forged the Guards need to have a look. It is at this stage a totally separate issue however as the current law does not allow for appeals. So even if there was 70 billion signatures forged onto it it would not make a blind bit of difference now to the staging of the concerts.

Happyman42

Permabear wrote: »

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I have years of experience of the Indo making stuff up. I am instantly on guard when no other newspaper runs with it or reports on it themselves. It's a dead giveaway.
If you want to slur somebody's charather which headline would you chose here,

Resident was 'paid €15,000 to help his court case'

Resident recieved €15,000 towards his court expenses

both technically correct but one is designed to give the story a sinister slant.

Appalling paper

EricPraline

Kensington wrote: »

Thankfully, planning law and decision making doesn't work like that. Nor should it ever.

Very good post. Sadly planning has worked like that in Ireland in the past. People seem genuinely shocked that it hasn't been circumvented in this case. Shure bend the rules, what harm, it'll bring in money and we'll all be laughing etc. People have associated the idea of ignoring planning decisions with corrupt councillors and big developers in the past, but it seems to be something that a large segment of the Irish population are completely comfortable with.

Joe prim

Upside could be an opportunity for Enda to appoint a new Minister for Garth Brooks Affairs, thus saving some poor b*s*a*d's ministerial pension. (And two juniors to look after Philomema Begley and Billy Ray Cyrus)

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Long as it suits themselves they are fine with ignoring the planning laws. Imagine if planning regulation was bent for installation of say an incinerator? I wonder if the same people who want to ignore the law now would be happy that the law was ignored in that situation. I appreciate thats an extreme example but the law is there for a reason. It is explicit for a reason. It is designed to stop all this intervention and "nod and a wink" politics.

But shure **** that lets all get pissed and have a line dance. Yeow!

Permabear

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Happyman42

Permabear wrote: »

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No, not everything, but I have learned that there are ways of spotting their tripe as I have outlined.
Thankfully most people know bull when they read it.

oppenheimer1

heartseeker wrote: »

This is a complete farce.Yet another example of the rich,powerful and influential trying to put maximum pressure and guilt on a Dublin City Council Manager for merely making a decision that he deemed fair and agreeable.This release of an email by Garth brooks and now the taoiseach wading in is clear example of media bias and government not knowing its place.How Enda Kenny can justify this after all the planning corruption cases shows a wilful ignorance of the law and lack of respect for fellow civil servants.Owen Keegan should be commended for not bowing to political and media pressure here and bullied into uturning from an initial fair proposal.What a moron country we live in when the head of state chooses something like this to excert his influence.Forget medical card debacle, homeless crisis, priory hall ,jobbridge scandal this is a political hotbed for Kenny.Absolute joke!

The reason it's a political hotbed and Kenny has gotten involved are simple, there were over 300,000 potential voters that care a lot about this issue.

The reason Kenny and co don't give much attention to homeless, job bridge, priory hall etc issues are because the electorate doesn't really care about them.

If 300,000 people lived in priory hall and it cost the exchequer nothing to fix the problem, it would have the highest priority.

maxwell smart

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Is garth a psychopath?

I think he is actually very very smart indeed... (and very very rich too of course)

He has bounced a ball back into play and everyone else is trying to catch it.

Genius!