WW1 Soldiers Traitors?

CDfm

The idea that membership of the British Army was wildly popular is always going to be controversial given the circumstances.

De Valera supported the erection of a memorial.

http://www.historyireland.com/decadeofcentenaries/national-war-memorial-gardens-islandbridge/

In that context and he was Taoiseach , he didn't consider them traitors.

tac foley

I have a poppy-superimposed on shamrock pin.

I wear that, as well as my poppy on maple leaf pin.

There are two of us Foleys in the American Cemetery at Madingly, near Cambridge. Tom [known as Bonny because of his amazingly blue eyes] is on the Wall of Remembrance and John has a proper grave.

As does my grandfather, over in France.

I guess starting a new thread about poppy-wearing might be the best idea.

Apologies for thread drift.

tac

Jawgap

CDfm wrote: »

The idea that membership of the British Army was wildly popular is always going to be controversial given the circumstances.

De Valera supported the erection of a memorial.

http://www.historyireland.com/decadeofcentenaries/national-war-memorial-gardens-islandbridge/

In that context and he was Taoiseach , he didn't consider them traitors.

In fairness, I think Dev was a bit 'late to the party' when it came Irish National War Memorial Gardens. He could have killed off the project when he became Taoiseach, so in that regard we should be grateful to him that he didn't.

As a barometer of feeling towards the soldiers who fought in WW1 it's very useful. It was neglected for a very long time before undergoing a restoration in the 1980s.

According to the Defence Forces website

The first real, fully official "opening and dedication" took place with a state commemoration to mark the 90th anniversary of the Battle of the Somme on 1 July 2006

CDfm

Jawgap wrote: »

In fairness, I think Dev was a bit 'late to the party' when it came Irish National War Memorial Gardens. He could have killed off the project when he became Taoiseach, so in that regard we should be grateful to him that he didn't.

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Isn't it well known that his stepfather was an englishman name of Wheelwright and didn't he provide a holiday camp for polo playing British playboys during WWII .

Santa Cruz

CDfm wrote: »

The idea that membership of the British Army was wildly popular is always going to be controversial given the circumstances.

De Valera supported the erection of a memorial.

http://www.historyireland.com/decadeofcentenaries/national-war-memorial-gardens-islandbridge/

In that context and he was Taoiseach , he didn't consider them traitors.

Sean Lemass also stated that Irishment who fought in WW1 were badly treated .
It must be all taken in context of the economic deprivation, particularly in Dublin, which I believe was the main cause of men enlisting. In the early days of the war they thought it would be over by Christmas 1914

CDfm

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Sean Lemass also stated that Irishment who fought in WW1 were badly treated .
It must be all taken in context of the economic deprivation, particularly in Dublin, which I believe was the main cause of men enlisting. In the early days of the war they thought it would be over by Christmas 1914

That's an interesting point.

Politically the Home Rulers were devastated by the war and replaced by a different type of politics and politician. Their next generation of leaders were wiped out.

No doubt the WoI and Civil War was more current when the soldiers returned home.

They were fairly unwanted.

Events such as the murder of Vice Admiral Somerville in 1936 , for instance, would have discouraged people from being open about their experiences or connections.

Jawgap

Not just the army......Tom Crean after his service in the RN never spoke of his achievements, in public anyway.

His brother was in the RIC and was shot by the IRA in an ambush.

As an aside, his pub his well worth a visit!

barneystinson

Mutheragod what a nest of vipers.

Maybe it's just me, as a fellow non-historian, but I thought it entirely clear what the OP was asking, and the responses he got (especially after clarifying for those who wanted to read all sorts of stuff into his question), were very rude, aggressive and completely OTT.

It really says something when Jim2007 is the least patronising poster on a thread!

To answer the OP, it's an interesting question and I've never encountered any public figures expressing that view, but there are no doubt plenty of barstool republicans who do hold that view. Although "view" is probably too generous a word, as it'd imply they'd applied critical reasoning...

Santa Cruz

CDfm wrote: »

That's an interesting point.

Politically the Home Rulers were devastated by the war and replaced by a different type of politics and politician. Their next generation of leaders were wiped out.

No doubt the WoI and Civil War was more current when the soldiers returned home.

They were fairly unwanted.

Events such as the murder of Vice Admiral Somerville in 1936 , for instance, would have discouraged people from being open about their experiences or connections.

There are a number of individuals, Tom Barry probably the most prominent, who were subsequently involved with the Volunteers and assisted in training using the knowledge they had gained in the British ARMY.
However there also were a number of ex servicemen who supplied information to the British during the War of Independence. A number of these informers, real or in some cases mistaken, did pay the penalty and were executed by the I.R.A. It must be remembered that there were many garrison towns with a long history of service to the British Army and certainly loyalties were divided

CDfm

Santa Cruz wrote: »

There are a number of individuals, Tom Barry probably the most prominent, who were subsequently involved with the Volunteers and assisted in training using the knowledge they had gained in the British ARMY.

Yes, and some were suspicious of Tom Barry.

Michael O'Leary VC chose to emigrate .

However there also were a number of ex servicemen who supplied information to the British during the War of Independence. A number of these informers, real or in some cases mistaken, did pay the penalty and were executed by the I.R.A. It must be remembered that there were many garrison towns with a long history of service to the British Army and certainly loyalties were divided

True and the history isn't clear.

Nobody knows what old scores were settled .

The political situation is far from simple and post independence Pro & Anti Treaty is very simplistic.

There was a full spectrum from 1916 Veterans, Home Rulers, Marxists and so on all involved in a common revolution.

johnny_doyle

one "traitor" involved in the British Army during WW1 was the MP for West Clare Arthur Lynch. Found guilty of high treason following his role during the Boer War and sentenced to death (commuted), he served as a recruiter (with the rank of Colonel) for the Army during the war. The 10th Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers was one of his projects, though it was established late in the war and didn't serve overseas.

At his first election in Galway he defeated Sir Horace Plunkett.

In 1918 he was stood as the Labour candidate for Battersea South while Charlotte Despard stood for Labour in Battersea North.


Some WW1 soldiers killed in Ireland :

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/ex-soldier-joseph-walsh.html

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/ex-soldier-malachy-halfpenny.html

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/ex-soldiers-killed-in-ireland.html

A survivor of some rough treatment :

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/ex-soldier-james-mcalorum.html

Jim2007

Santa Cruz wrote: »

There are a number of individuals, Tom Barry probably the most prominent, who were subsequently involved with the Volunteers and assisted in training using the knowledge they had gained in the British ARMY.

Another that I know of was Michael Costello, who served with the South Mayo ASU, he was always known locally simply as 'Soldier'. I believe he served with the Irish Guards, but I have no information on him.

johnny_doyle

Santa Cruz wrote: »

There are a number of individuals, Tom Barry probably the most prominent, who were subsequently involved with the Volunteers and assisted in training using the knowledge they had gained in the British ARMY.

Possibly overstating Tom Barry's army experience. He trained as an artilleryman and served in Iraq. Training and service that didn't naturally fit with the terrain and fighting in Cork.

He wasn't exactly being truthful about reaching the rank of Sergeant and being offered a commission - he was a bombardier (Corporal) for a short while before reverting back to the rank of gunner at his own request. Limited experience of commanding troops in the field and of small unit infantry tactics.

The lack of infantry training/experience, command experience etc makes his WoI exploits all the more remarkable IMHO.

johnny_doyle

some nice pics coming out of the Howth landing celebrations today.

In a recent article re the Asgard one man was simply listed as "a British aviator" The aviator was Gordon Shepherd. One of the first Royal Flying Corps officers to land in France in August 1914, earning a string of awards. Later a Brigadier General, he was the highest ranking member of the RFC to die during the war.

Jesus.

barneystinson wrote: »

Mutheragod what a nest of vipers.

Maybe it's just me, as a fellow non-historian, but I thought it entirely clear what the OP was asking, and the responses he got (especially after clarifying for those who wanted to read all sorts of stuff into his question), were very rude, aggressive and completely OTT.

Absolutely this. People on Boards.ie in general come across as utter assholes

Judgement Day

Jesus. wrote: »

Absolutely this. People on Boards.ie in general come across as utter assholes

Yourself included no doubt?

Jesus.

No, I'm perfect. I'm the saviour of mankind...

Santa Cruz

Jesus. wrote: »

Absolutely this. People on Boards.ie in general come across as utter assholes

Post edit by moderator. ..

Refer to army thread for what happens if your posts are seen as back seat moderating.

Santa Cruz

Was reading this morning about a Laois man, James Macintosh. He was a Dublin fusilier who fought in WW1 including at the Somme.
He subsequently joined the IRA and died of wounds received during an attack on the Royal Marine Hotel Dun Laoghaire where British officers used to stay.

chrysagon

i know my gran uncle fought at the latter of WW1 purely for money...

con___manx1

Fooker wrote: »

Hi,

I'm doing some research into the above topic. What historians or journalists or politicians specifically believe or support this idea

1,600 men fought in the 1916 rising while over 200,000 fought in the British army during ww1. Ireland was British for such a long time that a lot of people were used to it. at the beginning of the rising there was little support from the public. it was only when they executed James Connolly and so on that they got a lot more support.
James Connolly served in the British army and he definitely was not a traitor. I am proud of the Irish men who fought in the British army.they were not traitors a lot of them did it simply for money as there was not a lot of employment at the time.

whisky_galore

tac foley wrote: »

I guess starting a new thread about poppy-wearing might be the best idea.

Apologies for thread drift.

tac

Hold out for a few more months until the end of Oct, the Poppy Debate is a hardy annual.

Santa Cruz

whisky_galore wrote: »

Hold out for a few more months until the end of Oct, the Poppy Debate is a hardy annual.

Could we tie it in with the "Would you wear an Easter Lily" post to make things easier?

johnny_doyle

chrysagon wrote: »

i know my gran uncle fought at the latter of WW1 purely for money...

how much did he get?

marieholmfan

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Was reading this morning about a Laois man, James Macintosh. He was a Dublin fusilier who fought in WW1 including at the Somme.
He subsequently joined the IRA and died of wounds received during an attack on the Royal Marine Hotel Dun Laoghaire where British officers used to stay.

God rest him. Many an Irishman was driven into the British army by hunger.

tac foley

marieholmfan wrote: »

God rest him. Many an Irishman was driven into the British army by hunger.

My maternal grandfather also fought on the Somme, but never came home. He joined up to get away from my grandmother, and nothing to do with hunger.

If you want to see him now, go to Plot 1, Row B, Templeux-le-Guérard Communal Cemetery Extension, Department of the Somme.

RIP - D/9947 Pt Wm V Collins 6th Dragoon Guards [Carabiniers]

tac

roundymac

My grand uncle from Skibbereen fought with the Munster Fusiliers, he remember in Villiers Facoun cemetry, don'st know where he is actually buried, killed 5/3/1918. RIP. I would consider him a hero.

tac foley

roundymac wrote: »

My grand uncle from Skibbereen fought with the Munster Fusiliers, he remember in Villiers Facoun cemetry, don'st know where he is actually buried, killed 5/3/1918. RIP. I would consider him a hero.

Name, rank and number and we can find him, but then again, so can you. Log on to the CWGC website and follow the instructions - either by using his name, or by looking at the cemetery and the list of those who are buried there.

tac

roundymac

Found him, thanks tac. ps, good to have you back on boards.

tac foley

G*d Bless him.

tac [note use of small letters - I'm not proud]